A few concerns about Ralph

[RalphIsKing]

OK, first here are the facts:

How old is your dragon? I think 8 months
How long have you had your dragon? 7 months
How long is your dragon? about 10 inches
What is the sex of your dragon? male?
What size enclosure do you have your dragon in? 29 gallon (we're in the process of building his new permanent large one)
What type substrate do you have on the bottom of your tank? tiles. paper towells first 5 1/2 mos., sand for 2 weeks, then read here and switched to tile for about a month now)
Do you use UVB lights? Yes
If so, Is it a coil, compact, fluorescent tube, or Mercury Vapor bulb? Florescent tube
What is the brand name and number of your bulb? Wattage (if MVB)? reptiglow 5.0
How old is your UVB bulb? 2 months
How close can your dragon get to the UVB? 6 inches
Do you use a separate basking bulb? What kind and what is the wattage? yes, 100 wats
What are the basking temps? 95-110
What is the cool side temp? 75-80
Do you take the temps with a stick on thermometer, a digital thermometer with a wire and a probe end or a temp gun? digital with wire
Where exactly are you taking your basking temps? Put the probe exactly where he would be sitting
Do you use a heat rock or heat pad? there is a heat pad, but it's covered by tile and doesn't get hot at all, just barely warm.
What do you feed your dragon? Please be specific. Crickets, mixed greens with collard greens and mustard greens
How often do you feed and what time do you feed (morning, afternoon, night)? Morning
Do you gutload (feed) your crickets, worms, etc? yes, green cubes and his veggie mix
Do you use vitamin or calcium supplements? What brand(s)? How many days a week do you use each of them? Dust with calcium 5 times a week, have dusted veggies with vitamins, but he's not eating his veggies like he used to, either
Is your dragon having regular bowel movements (poops)? yes
Do you bath your dragon? How often? 2 times a week (but only for the past month, before that had a water dish which he never used)
Do you mist your dragon or offer water other than in the bath? yes, takes drops on the tongue every day or so.
Does your dragon share an enclosure with another dragon? no
Have you gotten a vet check and fecal done? no

For about 2 weeks now, he's been really lethargic. Actually started about 2 weeks after I fixed up his cage with tiles, gave him a blanket (which he hides under a lot) and started being more exact about his basking temps and cricket dusting. He sleeps a lot of the day, just not as energetic as he used to be.

He's also sitting there with his mouth open a lot of the time, kind of yawning or something. His tongue has always had a little black spot at the end, but it looks like the tip is kind of dried out maybe. I could be imagining this, I don't know what a normal beardie tongue looks like.

Last up, his appetite is much lower than it used to be. Until a few weeks ago, he'd be eagerly waiting in his "feeding spot" in his cage for me to drop the crickets in, and he'd go after and eat them all with gusto. Now I have to actually put him where I drop the crickets, and he just kind of looks at them, goes after a couple, then just goes back into tired mode. He'll eat maybe 5 and used to eat 10 or more voraciously.

Could this just be some sort of cycle they go through, or do you all think something is wrong? He's become much more accepting of being held since he's acting so slow, so at least that's good, but I'm just worried about him. I have read that the bulb I've got can cause a lot of these problems, could they get better once the bulb is changed? I'm worried, it won't be here for 5 more days.... He was shedding a little skin on his lips, he could be getting ready to shed, but it doesn't seem like it at all.

 

[beardie parents]

What I understand about the quality of the fluorescent tube uvbs is that the Reptisun 10 is the best, then the reptisun 5, then the reptiglo 8 (if you can still find it) then the reptiglo 5. So the reptiglo 5 is not as powerful as the reptisun 5. As the Reptiglo 8 is less powerful as the reptiglo 5. That's all I know. Is it possible that you can take him out in the sun for an hour or so every day? From what I've read is that an hour of real sun every day is like giving them 4 hours under a mega ray mvb.

 

[Embee]

Sorry Ralph isn't feeling very well.

I read over your enclosure specifics, and Ralph's symptoms.

The main thing that stuck out for me was your UVB source, the ReptiGlo 5.0 tube. This bulb has been associated with emitting low levels of UVB, which can sap beardie's appetite, and slow down growth, which of course, can effect beardie's health tremendously. In reading and participating on the boards, I've noticed that the ReptiGlo bulbs follow a rather specific pattern of seeming ok at first, but as the weeks, or months roll by, tend to cause the very problems such as your are describing. My best advice is to turn off your UVB tube, ASAP, just leave the basking bulb going for now, and find, as Beardie Parents mentioned, a ReptiSun 10.0 TUBE, best price here: http://www.petmountain.com/product/...bs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-bulb.html The fact that he is still eating at all, and that he is awake and alert at least some, means you can probably turn this around for him if you make the changes, but you'll want to act quickly. It's ok of the UVB is off for a few days, while you secure a ReptiSun tube. In fact, it's usually preferable in giving beardie some time to heal from the hazardous low level UVB that the ReptiGlo emits. What size crickets are your feeding by the way, because honestly even 10 seems a little low, which as I mentioned, can be attributed to the ReptiGlo UVB light.

When you say his mouth is open, do mean gaping to thermo-regulate himself? Is this happening while he's in the basking area, specifically, under the hottest spot in the tank? If he gaping a lot, this can indicate that it might be a little too hot where he sits, and you may want to make some adjustments. If he's holding his mouth open while NOT in the basking area, this could possibly indicate a respiratory issue, or other health problem of which, you would want to treat ASAP.

The only other thing I can see is with regard to baths and hydration. You mentioned that you just started giving him baths a month ago, and before that he wasn't getting any water, am I understanding that correctly? If this is the case, I would UP the baths to 3-4 times per week. A good 15-20 minute soak in baby warm water, up to shoulders. If he was "running on empty" before, he'll need to "catch up" and even though they are desert animals, sufficient hydration is crucial for dragons. Misting can be helpful on off days, but dragons will get the bulk of their hydration from taking water in at the vent.

I'm not sure what to say about the tongue. :dontknow: Maybe someone else has some insight there?

Best of luck to you. I hope your dragon is feeling better soon!

Em

 

[RalphIsKing]

My best advice is to turn off your UVB tube, ASAP, just leave the basking bulb going for now, and find, as Beardie Parents mentioned, a ReptiSun 10.0 TUBE, best price here: http://www.petmountain.com/product/...bs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-bulb.html In fact, it's usually preferable in giving beardie some time to heal from the hazardous low level UVB that the ReptiGlo emits.

This surprises me, do you think he should have no UVB for the next 5 days? I already ordered it on Thursday, but it won't be here till next Wed. I'll do it if it's the best thing, but it's scary.

What size crickets are your feeding by the way, because honestly even 10 seems a little low, which as I mentioned, can be attributed to the ReptiGlo UVB light.

Med-lg. size. My husband thinks he's ready for large, but the large ones seem a little bigger than the space between his eyes. He's been on medium since we brought him home, the breeder said that's all the babies had been fed, so we kept up with that size.

When you say his mouth is open, do mean gaping to thermo-regulate himself? Is this happening while he's in the basking area, specifically, under the hottest spot in the tank? If he gaping a lot, this can indicate that it might be a little too hot where he sits, and you may want to make some adjustments. If he's holding his mouth open while NOT in the basking area, this could possibly indicate a respiratory issue, or other health problem of which, you would want to treat ASAP.

It's not constantly, but it's not just under the heat lamp...it's every day, though. I didn't know they gape like that for that reason, that seems like a pretty good explanation. His breathing doesn't seem labored.

The only other thing I can see is with regard to baths and hydration. You mentioned that you just started giving him baths a month ago, and before that he wasn't getting any water, am I understanding that correctly? If this is the case, I would UP the baths to 3-4 times per week. A good 15-20 minute soak in baby warm water, up to shoulders. If he was "running on empty" before, he'll need to "catch up" and even though they are desert animals, sufficient hydration is crucial for dragons. Misting can be helpful on off days, but dragons will get the bulk of their hydration from taking water in at the vent.

We will up his baths, I should have done that already. Before we started bathing him, he had a water dish in his cage, but I never once saw him near it, so I used to mist him or give him drops on his tongue every few days. I posted pictures of him when I first joined here, and a few people commented that he looked like he might be dehydrated, so we started bathing him. I don't think he likes it at all, though. Where are the vents you're talking about? Are they near his head, or under his tail, or what? I heard they take water in through their vents, but he's so stressed in the bath I don't leave him in there for long.

Em

Thank you so much for your response!!

 

[Embee]

Hi!

Thanks for all the detailed responses, it helps a lot. :mrgreen:

As to the UVB: Yes, he is fine without UVB for 5 days. The wisdom being, better no UVB, than bad UVB. And having been under the ReptiGlo, it might be just as well, to give him a break before reintroducing the UVB. Great that you've got the ReptiSun on the way!

As to the crickets/size: You are correct, if the large crickets are larger than the space between beardie's eyes, keep with the mediums. You don't want to risk impaction. If you're unsure at all, stick with the mediums..

As to the baths: indeed, try to up them. But you can move carefully, as you don't want to "sour" beardie on baths. However, this is one of those areas where "tough love" is sometimes a must. Indeed, although most pet stores will outfit you with the obligatory water dish, dragons don't often go for drinking from a dish (few if that). They may however, on occasion, jump in and swim in it, as our Cloudy does. OTOH, when the bath is MY idea, it's a little more work. Keep at it, gently, but it is important. Oh, the 'vent' is where they poop. :wink:

As to the mouth opening/gaping: Ok, this is cause for concern. Since it is happening beyond being under the heat lamp (thermo-regulating), two things come to mind (I'm not an expert mind you): either there is a respiratory issue, OR given your UVB, the possibility of metabolic bone disorder (MBD). Obviously, with respiratory issues, there could be breathing problems, and this could cause the mouth to open during unusual times. Have you heard your dragon making any noises, clicking, etc?

OTOH, one of the first outward physical signs of MBD, is a soft jaw which can prevent beardie from closing mouth entirely, cleanly. Given that he's been under a ReptiGlo, this is not out of the question. At this point, the symptoms (lack of appetite, sleepiness, mouth open), could really go either way. The only other thing I can offer is that our beardie, when upset, will sometimes draw her mouth wide open quickly before she starts bearding us... but it passes very quickly, almost like a fast yawn, and then she starts bearding and puffing... say if I try to hang out with her first thing in the morning... she is NOT a morning beardie. :roll:

I'm going to alert a moderator, someone with more experience than myself. I think they might be better able to pinpoint the mouth issue.

One thing I might suggest for the future: when you are able to move him to a larger enclosure (40 gallon or bigger), consider upgrading to a high output MVB (mercury vapor bulb), such as the Mega Ray or the T-Rex. These bulbs emit strong amounts of UVB, and can often help a previously struggling dragon, make up for lost time... we're in the process of this ourselves, at present.

Please feel free to shoot some more questions at me... hang in there!

The best,
Em

 

[Embee]

Wanted to let you know, I've put word in for Tracie (Drache613), a moderator, who might be better able to diagnose the mouth open/gaping issue.

Hang in there!

Em

 

[RalphIsKing]

Thank you so much for responding. I think he may have a problem in regards to the mouth closing. His lower jaw is just slightly more "OUT" than his upper, but he can close his mouth. I'm worried, he must have slept last night with his mouth open because his little tongue was so dry this AM it was almost stuck to his upper jaw. I misted him thoroughtly, I'll bathe him again today as well. His baths were only a few minutes before, but after reading your post yesterday, I had him in for a full 20 minutes.

I got him at a reptile store, practically everyone there has multiple beardies and even breed them and sell them there. I've always gone there to get fresh rats for the snake, and crickets for the various other pets, and all they ever sold was repti-glow. Yesterday I called after reading your post to see if they had gotten repti-suns in, now that's all they sell. I'm debating if I should go today and spend the extra $20 more than I just paid online :shock: so he can have one right away. It's funny they said the "glo" was crap, but that's where I got the bulb to begin with.... :x No one ever told me he needed to be bathed, at all. I was just told about the lighting he needed, and the veggies he needed.

Will Ralph be OK after he gets the correct bulb? I'm really scared. He's been fed well and I've done most other things right, but I guess this is one of the things that can really screw a beardie up. He did eat 7 or 8 calcium dusted crickets yesterday, and even some veggies after his bath. I think the issue is his jaw is already slightly off. Can that fix itself in the future, or will this always be an issue?

We're in the process of building him an awesome, 8 foot long enclosure (my husband is really handy and creative) but now we're worried he won't make it!!!!

 

[RalphIsKing]

I tried to get a picture of his tongue, but my camera is not working well. You really can't see, but it was definitely dried out this AM, and still doesn't look right up close....(ignore the cage on the floor, it's an old one my son is probably waiting to fill with a garter snake or something.)

Here's one with his mouth closed ( I know it's fuzzy, poor quality), to see how big the overlap is:

I have also noticed when he was running around trying to get out of his bath yesterday, that it seems like he runs off balance, like one of his front legs isn't strong or something. Have I messed up his little skeleton?????

 

[Embee]

First off, apologies. I sent a PM off to Tracie (Drache613), but somehow the link I provided her wasn't working properly. I sent her a proper link, so she'll be with you as soon as she can, I'm sure.

Ralph is lovely, very handsome fellow! The pics are very helpful, and I know this will help Tracie better guide you as well.

What you are describing, the mouth closing/limb issues yes, these are fairly typical signs of MBD. What happens is, even though you are providing the proper calcium, the ReptiGlo doesn't provide enough UVB to process it thoroughly and beardie becomes calcium deficient. In turn, the bones don't develop well, become soft, and cause the very issues you are describing. That said, there are many beardies who start down this road, who with changes to their environment, regain their health and do ok. I can't say if his jaw will ever be back to the way it was, or that his leg will make a complete recovery, but often beardies with a "strong constitution" will overcome their "disabilities" and live a happy life, with a caring owner... such as yourself. The fact that Ralph is still eating, and responding to you, is a very good sign that he's that kind of beardie. There is a "beardie rescue" board here with many inspiring *special* beardies.

If it helps, there are TONS of people here on this board who have dealt with similar scenarios. I came looking because our beardie was starting to shut down, and as it turns out, our compact UVB light was to blame. At 6 months, she is a "micro-beardie" at 7 inches. But she is in a new enclosure now, healthy, eating well and finally, growing. Many of us were lead astray by well intentioned pet store personnel only to learn that perhaps the pet stores don't have all the answers. At the very least, your store did some research, and made some changes, which is more than I can say for most. Our local pet store carries the ReptiSun and the ReptiGlos, but the problem is, that the Glos are priced WAY lower than the SUNs, so what do you think people purchase? Yep. The corporate store in town only carries Glos, compacts and coils. *yikes* I'm so sorry that you weren't given more detailed advice (baths and such), and ended up with (as many do) a UVB light that wasn't a help to Ralph. But if it helps, you're not alone. Sadly, it's an all too common scenario. The pet supply industry could certainly use a little more regulation. Thankfully, this place is a wealth of GOOD information, a nice consensus you'll find, and it's helped us get our beardie back up and going, as it were.

Ralph's new enclosure sounds like it's going to be quite a palace (fit for a king? :mrgreen! Given it's size, I would certainly entertain the idea of switching to a MVB (mercury vapor bulb) when the time comes. They can do a previously struggling beardie, a world of good (such as, in our case). I would recommend first, the best: the Mega Ray http://www.reptileuv.com or a close second, the T-Rex http://www.petmountain.com/product/...19/t-rex-active-uv-heat-flood-spot-lamps.html. For that size tank, I imagine you would want a 160w. The particular bulbs throw out great amounts of UVB, which can be a real help.

Well, I will leave you with that for now. And check back a little later. Tracie has the correct link now, so she should be able to get with you as time allows.

Hang in there!!

The best,
Em

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Thanks Em. You have it covered as far as the setup & lighting, etc.
The pictures definitely help. I believe that he is in the early stages of metabolic bone disease & since you have been observant & noticed this quickly you should be able to correct it for the most part without any other bone deviations happening. I can see where the lower jaw is beginning to jut out just slightly.
The Reptiglo 5 flourescent tube bulb isn't necessarily a bad bulb, it just emits basically very little UVB emissions. That means he is unable to absorb his calcium properly or synthesize D3 so his bones will suffer as will his health, over time. When they are young, their bodies need good amounts of calcium & protein to grow & they grow fast. So, their bodies utilize alot of calcium during that time & if they can't process what they take in it can begin to cause problems.
Great you already have the Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb on the way. Be sure to place it at 6-8 inches away from him, directly beside your basking light. Make sure that there is no plastic lens over the light to block the UVB as well. Do you have screen on top of the tank? If so, screen filters out UVB emissions, too so keep that in mind.
I think he would benefit from a month or two of liquid calcium, as well, to help get his levels up too. Here is a great liquid calcium that you can get:

http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Meds.html#CalciumGluconate

That is excellent that he drinks from a dropper also, so, he shouldn't have any problems taking the liquid calcium then. He will probably like it because it is fruit flavored. Try using that for 1-2 months to help him out. The dose is easy to figure but if you need any help, just let me know.

Em is right, I think Ralph should be able to overcome this because you jumped on it fast. They are pretty resilient creatures & overcome unbelievable circumstances. We will all be anxious to see him improve.
As for the crickets, if you feel the larger ones are too large, stick with the smaller ones. They need to be no larger than the space between their eyes to avoid impaction. You can even try butterworms, or phoenix worms, both of which are calcium loaded.



Tracie

 

[RalphIsKing]

Thank you so so much for the advice. I can't wait for that bulb to get here!! I'll order the calcium drops today, and take it easy with handling him for a bit. I don't know what all the beardies in the world would do with out this website!!

 

[Embee]

I don't know what all the beardies in the world would do with out this website!!

Too true! :!:

Wanted to second on the phoenix worms. They are naturally high in calcium (no need to dust, but for vites), and our beardie loves them. They're also VERY low maintenance, just keep 'em in their container, and feed when ready. They last a long time as well. There have even been a few testimonials given about these worms assisting in the reversal of early MBD (I think I found it on the MulberryFarms site, which sells them, so take that for what it's worth). I actually now order ours from http://www.phoenixworms.com They waive the shipping fees, and send them out priority mail so you have them in a couple of days. Best part is, beardie LOVES them. She is 7 inches, and eats about 30 mediums PWs a day (along with an appetizer of crickets).

If you're thinking of PWs, here is a thread worth reading... a little FYI.

http://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=98632&hilit=

The best to you. Please keep us posted on how Ralph is doing!

Em

 

[Embee]

Thanks Em. You have it covered as far as the setup & lighting, etc.

You're welcome. And thank you, Tracie.

Sorry for the bumb link...

Em

 

[RalphIsKing]

Well, Ralphs new bulb came yesterday, and the Phoenix worms & calcium drops came today. It's none too soon, he's really slowed down even more on the eating. I LOVE PHOENIX WORMS!! I put them in a little dish in his cage when I got home today, and put him right in front of them. At first he started getting all squirmy, and jumped back a few times. So I put one on the tile in front of him, and he ate it. All of a sudden he realized it was food and not the enemy, and he at 20 of them boom-boom-boom right after the other from the dish!! He really loved them! I forgot to order a dropper for the calcium, but I'll pick one up at the store today. Thank you all so much, I have no doubt that these changes are going to help him pull through. After his bath yesterday I cleaned his cage really good, bleaching out the tiles and rock and everything else, scrubbed it up and rearranged it to be much prettier. I also love those worms because they're so much cleaner, and I can just put the ones he doesn't eat right back into the container, and not have to chase down hiding crickets. I'm so happy!!!!! Thanks again for the help. 8)

 

[Embee]

Well, Ralphs new bulb came yesterday, and the Phoenix worms & calcium drops came today. It's none too soon, he's really slowed down even more on the eating. I LOVE PHOENIX WORMS!! I put them in a little dish in his cage when I got home today, and put him right in front of them. At first he started getting all squirmy, and jumped back a few times. So I put one on the tile in front of him, and he ate it. All of a sudden he realized it was food and not the enemy, and he at 20 of them boom-boom-boom right after the other from the dish!! He really loved them! I forgot to order a dropper for the calcium, but I'll pick one up at the store today. Thank you all so much, I have no doubt that these changes are going to help him pull through. After his bath yesterday I cleaned his cage really good, bleaching out the tiles and rock and everything else, scrubbed it up and rearranged it to be much prettier. I also love those worms because they're so much cleaner, and I can just put the ones he doesn't eat right back into the container, and not have to chase down hiding crickets. I'm so happy!!!!! Thanks again for the help. 8)

Oh, I'm so glad you shared this! I was wondering how things were going, waiting for the light, and other items.

It's great to see that Ralph is enjoying his PWs. I had to laugh because I just came from feeding Cloudy a few moments ago, and she goggled down 25 worms I swear, in less than 20 seconds. It never ceases to amaze me how much our little girl eats, as it was just a few short weeks ago, that 10 crickets a day was a lot. The PWs are excellent for easy maintainance, yes? I love that, and that they are naturally high in calcium, and beardie loves them, all the better!

Keep us posted on how the new bulb works out. I imagine along with a renewed appetite (thank you phoenix worms!), that new light will restore Ralph's energy, and perhaps even then some!

The best to you!

Em