2 baby dragons, and not everything sorted!

[Overparanoid]

hey, i have 2 baby bearded dragons called Ben and Jerry (not very original i know lol) who i don't know the sex of yet. they apparently hatched just before xmas. so i went to to pet shop on wednesday to ask questions and buy everything i needed before i bought the dragons, they told me that i should give them 12 crickets twice a day and to put them of calci sand. so i did as they said, i had a viv at home that i set up with a heat mat covered in calci sand, a uvb coil light on the same side as the mat and a normal rock to heat up via the heat mat with a water dish and a hide area in the cool side.

after i let this warm up i walked back to the pet shop and asked bought 2 beared dragons as he suggested this as they prefere to be in pairs (which i now know not to be true) and some small crickets. i took them home and put them in their viv and gave them a feed later that day. when i finally got my internet working again, i came online to double check everything was ok, came across this site and found out that calci sand is a big no, that they need to be fed 3 times a day as much as they can in 10-15 mins and that they don't live well together.

what i've done to turn this around is i've changed their substrate to kitchen paper, i feed them more often with more crickets and i've just got to save up for a new viv to separate them when i get the chance.

now i have a few questions:
first, what am i missing in my viv? i feel like somethings not right there.
also, what veg do they eat?
how to i get them to drink more?
and what basic care do i need to improve on?

i'm still upset that i didn't get the right info from the store and i just want to make things right now.

i did introduce my dragons on the intro page but i just want to show u how small these dragons are as i'm a little suspitious about their age:

*Edit*

As reqested below, I'm now attatching some photos of my viv. its home made btw as is only temporary until they are bigger and until they are separated, it's dimentions are: H-15 " W-24" D-12"

this is the viv

this is my repti-glo 10.0 uvb light

where that wire ends is where the heat mat is.

thats the cool end with their water bowl that they don't drink from

and this is just a side view to show the whole tank

any help and advice would be fully appriciated

thankyou x

 

[SkitTer]

If you could possibly post some pictures of your vivarium, we might be able to help a little more. Getting rid of the calcium sand is a good idea. I personally use 6" x 6" tiles, this keeps it very easy to clean and sanitize.
They only thing I know for sure is bad right now, is your coil UVB lamp. I had both the Exoterra ReptiGlo 10.0 and 5.0 bulbs. Both made my dragons sick, one got a bad respiratory infection and UV blindness. So get rid of it fast if you can.
If you need more of a compact lamp, the ZooMed ReptiSun 5.0 has worked great for us so far. But I really suggest using the T8 CFL Tube lights for proper UVB levels.
Do some research here, and you will understand everything I am saying about the UVB exposure. TOO MUCH IS A BAD THING!

As far as the age of your beardies, it is pretty much impossible to tell. But judging by the pictures you posted (assuming good health from hatchling), they would appear to be no more than 3-5 weeks of age. This is very subjective though, if you can't contact the breeder, you may never truly know.

 

[Overparanoid]

If you could possibly post some pictures of your vivarium, we might be able to help a little more. Getting rid of the calcium sand is a good idea. I personally use 6" x 6" tiles, this keeps it very easy to clean and sanitize.
They only thing I know for sure is bad right now, is your coil UVB lamp. I had both the Exoterra ReptiGlo 10.0 and 5.0 bulbs. Both made my dragons sick, one got a bad respiratory infection and UV blindness. So get rid of it fast if you can.
If you need more of a compact lamp, the ZooMed ReptiSun 5.0 has worked great for us so far. But I really suggest using the T8 CFL Tube lights for proper UVB levels.
Do some research here, and you will understand everything I am saying about the UVB exposure. TOO MUCH IS A BAD THING!

As far as the age of your beardies, it is pretty much impossible to tell. But judging by the pictures you posted (assuming good health from hatchling), they would appear to be no more than 3-5 weeks of age. This is very subjective though, if you can't contact the breeder, you may never truly know.

i've posted some pictures of the viv above, and thanks for the advice on the lights, i didn't relise you could get too much uvb :shock: so i'm going to go change their light on wednesday as thats when i get paid so they shouldn't be with that light for too much longer. also they apparently are 8 weeks old, so this worries me that they haven't been getting enough food or something seeing as they are so tiny. they are filling up lots atm 3 times a day, i'm not sure how many crickets each but they are getting through at least 20 between them each feed now.

 

[pimmsoclock87]

I would turn the reptiglo off now, that light will do more harm then good. They will be fine for a couple of days without UVB.

If your in the states you will want to get a reptiSUN 10.0 TUBE or in the UK the best one is the Arcadia 12% TUBE. But bear in mind that you will need to get a starter controller for the tube which is around £30 (not sure how much they are in america)

Beardies get all the water they need from their food live and greens. So it will be very very rare that you will ever catch them drinking from a bowl. (My beardies drink while in the bath sometimes)

I personally don't use a water dish as it can raise humidity in the viv and too much humidity can cause respiratory problems with beardies.

As long as you have a good UVB light, Basking Lamp and temps between 100f - 110f on the basking spot and around 80f on the cool end then your fine. Only other things you can add is decor to spruce the viv up!!

A good site that tells you the nutrional values of different foods and when to feed different things is here http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html

Also make sure you dust 5x a week with calcium and 2x a week with vitamins.

Think thats about it (well all that i can think of right now )

 

[pudden318]

you need to get the reptisun10.0 for uvb, but you also need a bright white bulb for heat the basking temps should be around 110. turn off and get rid or the heat pad it can burn your babies pretty bad.

 

[demonsmomma]

aww you have very precious babies ..soo tiny i miss having a beardie that small i bought max two months ago and well hes 17 inches long from head to tail and a good 400 grams so ya they get big but so loveable

 

[Freeie]

You will need to bathe them. Soak them in luke warm water every other day for about 20 mins to make sure they keep hydrated. Babys dehydrate east because of the hotter basking temps 105f up to but not over 110f. You can remove the water dish they wont use it. They may drink in the bath i add them to the tub/ container i bathe them in and slowly pour the water they see moving water and might drink. They might hate the baths at first but over time they may come to love them. Since they are new to you id bathe them every day for a week or so just to get them good and hydrated.

They sure are cuties :S congrats on them.

 

[diamc]

Hi, adorable babies. I wanted to mention that you have to be real careful when having a water dish in a babies tank because they can drown in the smallest amount of water.

What are the tank temps and what type of thermometer are you using?

 

[Buggsy]

Yes i dont think you had a basking bulb in there!

A normal household bulb willl be perfect, you want to put it right next to your new UVB tube, at one end of the tank. Wattages vary, and its very difficult to tell you what to get. You absolutely NEED a decent thermometer, a digital one with a long probe on a wire (about £7, or $12). Without the right temps they wont be able to digest any of the lovely food you have been giving them, and they will go downhill fast. UVB they can live without for a few days, but heat is really essential.

 

[Overparanoid]

hi, i'd just like to let you all know that i got the uvb tube and controller, and a basking bulb and i moved the heat mat to underneath the viv instead of inside and now they are alot happier. i also gave them a bath last night and the guzzled down lots of water so i'm going to do that once a day for at least sa week to make sure they are well hydrated. i'm just glad i've finally got it all sorted! i just think its a shame that they started out life starving hungry, surrounded by calci sand, no basking bulb and the worst uvb bulb i could have got. oh and the stress marks they had are already alot lighter so they are much happier. now all thats left to do is separate them when i've got the money!

right now that ben and jerry have a new home sorted and have had lunch i better eat something!

Nat x

 

[Freeie]

Id remove the under the tank heater. So they dont over heat from the bottom. A basking light and their uvb should be fine. I'm so happy they drank for you Did you get a therm to take the basking temps under the bulb where they sit?

 

[Overparanoid]

Id remove the under the tank heater. So they dont over heat from the bottom. A basking light and their uvb should be fine. I'm so happy they drank for you Did you get a therm to take the basking temps under the bulb where they sit?

yeah i'm really happy that they drank aswel, such a relief to know they aren't going to dehydrate, i was so suprised when the little one drank that its little body got all plump like he really needed it haha. and yes i did get a thermometor, it came out at 107...is that high enough? or too high? and really? what about at night when i turn off the lights? wont it get too cold without the mat?

btw, does anyone know how to sex baby dragons? or do i have to wait until they are older? cause i have no idea if ben or jerry are girl and boy, 2 girls or 2 boys...my main concern is cause they are living together atm and i don't want them to start getting feisty before i manage to separate them.

Thank you everyone for your help, its really nice to see them being more lively and happier now that they are warm and comfy

Nat x

 

[Buggsy]

It takes time for their sexual organs to develop, but their need for their own space kicks in quite early, so i would be getting a new tank now, before you have any issues with them.

The best way to sex, is face the dragons away from you, lift their tail slightly, and look at the base of the tail, just before the vent. Tow bumps is a boy, one bump or none is a girl. If you want to post pics im sure people would be able to give your their advice on it.

As for night time heating, you really dont need anything unless the tank gets below 65f, if it does you want a ceramic heat emitter.

 

[SkitTer]

now i have a few questions:
first, what am i missing in my viv? i feel like somethings not right there.
also, what veg do they eat?
how to i get them to drink more?
and what basic care do i need to improve on?

Thanks for the pictures, not a bad looking homemade viv. Makes it a lot easier to understand what we are working with.

The first thing you are missing, is an incandescent or halogen heat bulb. Beardies use their parietal eye to detect the temp and UV content of a particular area. So they need this overhead lamp to properly thermoregulate. The heat pad is dangerous to have with our dragons, as they do not have sensory nerves on their belly (thorax and abdomen) to help them detect the heat. They can very easily overheat on top of such a device. Heat rocks are also problematic for the same reasons.

Second, others have already said how much of a problem the eXoterra UVB bulb is. I had a lot of problems personally. So get rid of it, I am a particular fan of the ZooMed 5.0 unit. A 10.0 is excessive unless it is at least 24" from your lizard. 270mW/cm 2 is the most UVB detected on the planet (according to eXoterra), that reading is also at the equator and at 12 noon. Thus, you do not need to provide anywhere near as much UVB. Somewhere between 125-175mW/cm 2 is a good constant level. A 5.0 at about 18" provides this effectively. Just remember that too much UVB is bad, radiation kills everything on the planet, including your beardie.

Third, proper vegetables for them to eat are as follows: mustard greens, field greens, kale, romaine, iceberg, red leaf, carrots, yellow (summer) squash, etc. Basically, try just the greens first, then add other things one by one. This will allow observation of the dragon's health to ensure the vegetable in question is not causing harm. Make sure if you are purchasing any produce from the grocery store, you thoroughly wash it. Pesticides can immediately kill your pet.

Fourth, drinking water is not an instinct that hatchling beardies have. They are desert dwelling, and thus, don't stumble upon free standing water sources regularly. All of their water uptake is provided by the vegetation and live insects they consume. If you are concerned though, you can try dipping water down the side of the viv. This often excites their prey drive and they will "attack" the water droplets. If this is ineffective, you can manually feed them water (I would recommend Pedialyte), but only do this if it is apparent that they are somewhat dehydrate.

Fifth, by the time they are about 10" or so, you will want to separate them. An adult dragon will live happily in a 40gal breeder tank (h16"xw18"xl36"). Due to space constraints, I use h18"xw18"xl30", custom built units as well. Though you should not have to worry about this for a short while, since yours are young juveniles. As far as this information goes, the separation is necessary with two males. Males are territorial and will battle for dominant position in their heirachy. Two females, under normal expectations, would not have a problem living together. Though, the enclosure's size would need to reflect the fact that two occupants will share it. To be sure, whether this is necessary, you will need to sex them at about that 10" point. Before this (and sometimes beyond it) sexing in nearly impossible. At least with any reasonable degree of certainty. If you are really curious now, you can take pics like Buggsy said.

Finally, if you can correct what has been mentioned here, you will be doing very well by your pets. Beyond this, you can apply nutritional supplements like has already been stated by pimmsoclock87. I personally apply calcium everyday and vitamins every other day when my hatchlings are so small. Properly "gut-loading" your feeders is tremendously important as well. By this I mean, in the wild insects would have been eating heartily before they are consumed by another animal. As a result, the nutrient content of their stomachs are also consumed, ingested and absorbed by the dragon. So you need to mimic this cycle in your viv, to provide proper nutrition.

 

[pudden318]

K first off you need a reptisun 10.0 not the 5.0, second never feed your dragon lettuce it has no nutritional value in it and can give your dragon diheara.(sp). go to http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html tells you everything you need to know about feeding, any other questions just ask.