Feeders with more protein

So my female bearded dragon we believe is almost a year old, and her staple feeders are Phoenix worms. I am aware however that Phoenix worms are lacking in protein, so I try to supplement that by feeding silkworms as well when I'm able to get my hands on them. I have a very hard time finding silkworms though, and unfortunately because I live in Florida I'm not able to get dubia roaches. Does anyone have advice for me, or a recommendation so that I can add more protein to her diet? I feel like she's a little small for her age and would like to see her grow a little bit more, would crickets be okay? I've always tried to stay away them from them because of all the conflicting information I've heard. I'd really appreciate any help, again I understand that dubia roaches would probably be my best option but unfortunately they aren't available for me where I live.

Well I guess it depends on the type of BSFL you are using.

IDK about Phoenix worms nutrition as they are a brand name of BSFL, but the BSFL from Symton are 50.9% crude protein. That is plenty.

Crickets would be fine to add in if you want. Mealworms and Superworms are ok Choices too. There are also butterworms and hornworms.

Variety is key. A variety of different insects and a healthy varied salad will help a dragon grow a letter better and healthier than being feed only high protein. High protein isn't the solution to health.

-Brandon

Claudiusx":11rxi85a said:

Well I guess it depends on the type of BSFL you are using.

IDK about Phoenix worms nutrition as they are a brand name of BSFL, but the BSFL from Symton are 50.9% crude protein. That is plenty.

Crickets would be fine to add in if you want. Mealworms and Superworms are ok Choices too. There are also butterworms and hornworms.

Variety is key. A variety of different insects and a healthy varied salad will help a dragon grow a letter better and healthier than being feed only high protein. High protein isn't the solution to health.

-Brandon

Click to expand...

Previously I ordered my BSFL from Symton, however they only will ship through USPS and unfortunately my local post office gave me big problems everytime I try to collect the package. When I reached out to Symton they said that they do not ship through FedEx or UPS, so I no longer purchase through them. I prefer to order the BSFL/Phoenix Worms (whatever you prefer to call them) from Josh's Frogs, as they always arrive on time with no issues at all.

From the research I've done, it seems that BSFL protein count really varies by what they consume and the substrate that the feeder company uses (which is the case for any feeder). Do you have a link to where you found the protein content of Symtons BSFL? They never sent me any nutrition analysis with my orders and I never noticed it on their website either.

Dubia Roaches are typically around 20-24% (size will make a big difference). Silkworms tend typically are around 55%.

My dragon is very healthy and I provide her plenty of variety when it comes to "treat" feeders and her salads. She just seems small to me for her age in a 50 gal tank.

Mealworms and Superworms have high fat content and should only be fed as treats, and Superworms have hard shells and should not be fed to young dragons (my dragon is still under 1 year old). Hornworms have very low nutrients and are definitely only meant as an occasional treat. Butterworms tend to have the same protein content as BSFL, but they have less calcium and not as good of a Ca ratio.

Again my beardie is extremely healthy and active, she eats her salads everyday and the only thing that I know she is lacking in her diet is protein. I am not looking for a health solution. Just looking to see if anyone has an alternative to Dubia Roaches that I can get here in Florida, or even somewhere to order Silkworms that are available. I understand there are plenty of treat feeders to add variety, but I'm looking for better staple feeders to give her everyday with the BSFL that are available to me. Maybe someone has come across that I haven't seen in my research or I am reading incorrect information.

Research Sources:

http://www.grubco.com/nutritional_information.cfm
https://doi.org/10.3177/jnsv.56.446
https://dubiaroaches.com/pages/dubia-roach-nutrition-facts
https://cyberleninka.org/article/n/1414302.pdf
https://www.silkwormshop.com/benefits.html

Well Phoenix worms are a brand of bsfl, so if its labeled as a pheonix worm, it's from a specific company and has a specific nutrient data due to its feed from that company. Symton sends a nutrition card with your order. They said it's also on their website but I was unable to find it on there also.

However I did email them to confirm their analysis, they had their own specific bugs sent to a lab multiple times so their data for their specific bsfl are accurate (and will be different from phoenix worms, calciworms, or any other branded or unbranded bsfl)

Mealworms and super worms are perfectly fine feeders. I've raised dragons for near 20 years now and all of my dragons have had mealworms and superworms as part of their diets.
Let's not let perfection be the enemy of good. Fat is an essential nutrient too. Not just protein. Micronutrients are important too.

You are never going to find a single bug that is perfect. Each and every single bug offers something that another doesnt. That is why variety is key. The more options you can offer, the better. But alienating a choice because it has 1 thing you dont like isnt a good idea when variety is already a limiting factor for dragons diets.

Imo, and based off of years of seeing sick dragons here, mealworms and superworms are a better feeder choice than dubias. Dubias have high levels of UA. The popularity of dubias in the last decade has led to an exponential increase in young dragons suffering from gout and high liver values.
The point of that is that even a "good thing" can become a bad thing when fed in exces. How do you prevent a single excess? Variety.

Do I still feed dubias to my dragons? Yes. But my dragons typically get 4 or more different bugs a week.


Dont limit your options just because 1 bug isnt perfect. As part of a varied diet, they all add a benefit to the dragons health.

-Brandon

I guess the purpose of me diving deep into that is because there is no 1 staple feeder. That is a term people need to get out of their minds. No single bug is suitable.

But to directly answer your question, silkworms are always hard to find. But you can usually very easily source eggs. Even if you buy the chow for them, it's cheaper to buy eggs and raise your own silks. If you do this you wont ever run out of silkworms.

Mulberryfarms is where I buy my silkworm eggs and chow from.

-Brandon

Claudiusx":2dpae7tr said:

I guess the purpose of me diving deep into that is because there is no 1 staple feeder. That is a term people need to get out of their minds. No single bug is suitable.

But to directly answer your question, silkworms are always hard to find. But you can usually very easily source eggs. Even if you buy the chow for them, it's cheaper to buy eggs and raise your own silks. If you do this you wont ever run out of silkworms.

Mulberryfarms is where I buy my silkworm eggs and chow from.

-Brandon

Click to expand...

I understand how important it is to provide variety. I always have given my beardies BSFL, Dubias, Silkworms, and Hornworms (as a treat). The silkworms were always hit or miss though, but I was still able to give decent variety. Now that I'm in Florida though I'm even more limited, and I had no idea they were banned here until after I moved which completely shocked me tbh.

I've thought about raising silkworms but never new where to start. How do you house them? Do you have any links to some information about starting to raise them yourself?

To be honest, they are very intimidating (At least they were for me) but once you do it once, you get the hang of it. I'd recommend starting off with only 100-200 eggs for your first go around to see how things go for you.

There are no real good guides online IMO, and youtube videos seem to be lacking for them too. But Mulberryfarms has a good enough guide to get you started. You will at least be able to see if it's something you'd be willing to try.

http://www.mulberryfarms.com/Care-Raising-Tips-FAQ-12.html

There isn't much to it besides keep them slightly warm, keep everything very clean, and prevent mold. They are most delicate the first week or two, but once they start getting some size you can start breathing again lol.

Also FWIW, Discoids are legal in Florida last I checked.

-Brandon