How long should basking light be on?

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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby RedInkAus » Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:01 pm

GoFast wrote:I was under an assumption that the basking light should be on all day until about 5 minutes ago when I read blood bank dragon's website. On his caresheet link it states:
Temperature



80-85 degree ambient temperature with a 90-95 degree basking spot is ideal. Dragons can tolerate temperatures up to 115+ degrees but that is FAR from ideal.



Don’t run your basking light all day long. 3 hours in the morning and 3 in the evening is all they need. Excessive basking temps for prolonged periods of time cause the dragons to dehydrated (especially baby dragons). Over heated males can get very neurotic




Is this right?? If i can save 6 hours a day of energy then I would be a happy camper!


G'day mates,

Going back to the OPs original question:
Yes it is possible to do this as wild dragons only really bask at dawn and dusk. The rest of the day they hide in the shade or burrows, it's to hot to be under the blazing Australian sun. What people seem to have noticed is that they stated that 90-95F is ideal with the ambient temp of 80-85F, nowhere in their statements does it say to let it drop below these temps. I know it seems like by turning off the basking lamp it means the temp will go below that, but from what is written they don't say to let that happen, and without all the info we can't say how exactly they keep the ambient temps that high (CHE, heat mats, heat cords, whatever all speculations unless we get it from the source) without the basking lamps on.




GoFast wrote:
Interesting. I suppose that I did not realize that Savs typical countries of origin like Ghana, Kenya, Togo and Tanzania had the same environment as Australia, the country of origin for bearded dragons. I suppose that my ignorance on that fact and your statement would make me wonder; if the environments are so much alike, then why do you not find bearded dragons in places like Ghana, Kenya, Togo and Tanzania or why do you not find savs in Australia? I would assume that if the environments were so similar that both species would be found in all of those places.


The environment are nothing a like, Australia is arid not a desert. These countries inlands consists of deserts and savana plains, high humidity although dry and generally devoid of rains. It floods in inland Australia in the rainy season (though right now we are in the grips of a prolonged drought). Australia does not have those varanids, but we certainly have a higher species concentration of varanid species than any of those countries, with new species or sub-species continually still being classified to date. So asking why are there no savs in Australia is a failed point as we have our own varanids, so does South America and tropical East Asia. There are no bearded dragons in Africa but there are certainly more agamid species in Africa than Australia which is the phylum bearded dragons belong to.


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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby ghr15 » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:30 am

Here is the thing if you turn off the basking light it will drop below 80 Degrees unless the home is always 80 degrees. So that could not work even if they only bask in dawn and dusk. At night time cooler temp is ok but during the day it should not drop below 80 which is unlikely without a basking light. Unless you live where it is almost always 80 or more degrees outside. You live in a aird or dessert or tropical climate then yes you could get away with it provided you do not have air conditioning. But the likely hood of the cage staying at 80 degrees without heat does not seem that great to me. Also if you are providing secondary heat how is that saving power exactly? You may as well just use the basking lamp for the heating.

The regular reptile basking lights you can dim if it is more warm outside. I have my lizard lights on dimmers. If it gets to about 80 in the house I dim the basking lights. I have the 150 watt reptile lights. So when it is colder in the house I turn the light up if its hot I turn it down. But I never shut them off during the day.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby vickson420 » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:29 pm

:wink:
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby GoFast » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:59 pm

RedInkAus wrote:


GoFast wrote:
Interesting. I suppose that I did not realize that Savs typical countries of origin like Ghana, Kenya, Togo and Tanzania had the same environment as Australia, the country of origin for bearded dragons. I suppose that my ignorance on that fact and your statement would make me wonder; if the environments are so much alike, then why do you not find bearded dragons in places like Ghana, Kenya, Togo and Tanzania or why do you not find savs in Australia? I would assume that if the environments were so similar that both species would be found in all of those places.


The environment are nothing a like, Australia is arid not a desert. These countries inlands consists of deserts and savana plains, high humidity although dry and generally devoid of rains. It floods in inland Australia in the rainy season (though right now we are in the grips of a prolonged drought). Australia does not have those varanids, but we certainly have a higher species concentration of varanid species than any of those countries, with new species or sub-species continually still being classified to date. So asking why are there no savs in Australia is a failed point as we have our own varanids, so does South America and tropical East Asia. There are no bearded dragons in Africa but there are certainly more agamid species in Africa than Australia which is the phylum bearded dragons belong to.


JUST AS A REMINDER HUSBANDRY IS NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE WHAT WORKS FOR SOME MAY NOT WORK FOR OTHERS


Thanks for this response Red. Your answer to my "question" proves my point that I was trying to make. My question, if you read that entire post, was actually not really a question at all but more of facetious statement aimed at challenging TheVirus' theories that bearded dragons and Savannah's' environments are the same.


I am very glad that I posted this even though many have missed the point. The original point of me posting this in the first place was to bring to light the different information that is out there. When people see something that is out of the ordinary, they should be able to come here and post it without feeling like they are dumb. For the most part everyone on this forum is quite helpful but there are a few that rather than help, instead choose to belittle.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby RedInkAus » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:55 pm

GoFast: I totally agree with you i think the point was missed on this thread somehow. It started as a simple question of is this husbandry prctices by blood bank dragons and turned into questions of locality and cognitive assesments of lizards, suppose this things happen.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby vickson420 » Thu Mar 12, 2009 4:09 pm

Red Ink you are right so now(back on topic) I would like to know what is another Australian keeper's opinion on Bloodbanks methods?Better or worse for them over conventional BD care methods?
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby RedInkAus » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:15 pm

vickson420 wrote:Red Ink you are right so now(back on topic) I would like to know what is another Australian keeper's opinion on Bloodbanks methods?Better or worse for them over conventional BD care methods?


Waiting for me, or Kirby perhaps? No other aussie has been around for a while here. I see Kirby a lot this days on an Aussie forum.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby ronni1221 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:53 am

ghr15 wrote:Here is the thing if you turn off the basking light it will drop below 80 Degrees unless the home is always 80 degrees. So that could not work even if they only bask in dawn and dusk. At night time cooler temp is ok but during the day it should not drop below 80 which is unlikely without a basking light. Unless you live where it is almost always 80 or more degrees outside. You live in a aird or dessert or tropical climate then yes you could get away with it provided you do not have air conditioning. But the likely hood of the cage staying at 80 degrees without heat does not seem that great to me. Also if you are providing secondary heat how is that saving power exactly? You may as well just use the basking lamp for the heating.

The regular reptile basking lights you can dim if it is more warm outside. I have my lizard lights on dimmers. If it gets to about 80 in the house I dim the basking lights. I have the 150 watt reptile lights. So when it is colder in the house I turn the light up if its hot I turn it down. But I never shut them off during the day.


i think it may save energy if the whole room is heated from the get-go. It might not save energy for a single beardie, but bloodbankdragons have several dozen. For them, if the room is heated, they eliminate the need for the basking light to be on all the time. However, I'm not sure how this addresses temperature differences within the tank so the beardies can thermoregulate themselves.

Also, I think it is not necessarily correct for bloodbankdragons to say it is the lights that dehyrate the beardies. Any high temps will cause dehydration, right? If I sit in the shade all day on a very hot, dry day, I'll still get dehydrated if I don't drink water. If they are having issues with dehydration, they should look into better ways of hydrating the dragons.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby ghr15 » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:38 pm

ronni1221 wrote:
ghr15 wrote:Here is the thing if you turn off the basking light it will drop below 80 Degrees unless the home is always 80 degrees. So that could not work even if they only bask in dawn and dusk. At night time cooler temp is ok but during the day it should not drop below 80 which is unlikely without a basking light. Unless you live where it is almost always 80 or more degrees outside. You live in a aird or dessert or tropical climate then yes you could get away with it provided you do not have air conditioning. But the likely hood of the cage staying at 80 degrees without heat does not seem that great to me. Also if you are providing secondary heat how is that saving power exactly? You may as well just use the basking lamp for the heating.

The regular reptile basking lights you can dim if it is more warm outside. I have my lizard lights on dimmers. If it gets to about 80 in the house I dim the basking lights. I have the 150 watt reptile lights. So when it is colder in the house I turn the light up if its hot I turn it down. But I never shut them off during the day.


i think it may save energy if the whole room is heated from the get-go. It might not save energy for a single beardie, but bloodbankdragons have several dozen. For them, if the room is heated, they eliminate the need for the basking light to be on all the time. However, I'm not sure how this addresses temperature differences within the tank so the beardies can thermoregulate themselves.

Also, I think it is not necessarily correct for bloodbankdragons to say it is the lights that dehyrate the beardies. Any high temps will cause dehydration, right? If I sit in the shade all day on a very hot, dry day, I'll still get dehydrated if I don't drink water. If they are having issues with dehydration, they should look into better ways of hydrating the dragons.


Well yes lights can cause dehydration of course they can. But that is why you give them water. The thermo regulating is not so important if they cage is kept at an ideal temperature. They most likely heat the room to the ideal temp so they can get away with it. Still it is not an ideal setup as far as I am concerned. I am far from an expert but I do have real world experience with keeping reptiles. The leaving the lights off goes against all I have learned. Ok I may when it is a heat wave turn the heat amps off but that is when it is 90 degrees in the house. But I did not do that all the time just when it was really hot. But for normal setups turning the lights off is a no. I have had experience with that issue.

I had a reptile that was getting sick and I did not know why. That is until I caught my room mate shutting the light off when he thought I was not there. He was half paying for the electric bill and thought he would do that behind my back to save power. It was a modified cabinet as a double decker cage where you had to open it to turn off the lights. So I put a lock on it to keep him out and the animal was better in 3 weeks. I also reminded him that the rent was in my name not his and that I could kick him out if I chose to do so and find a new room mate.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby vickson420 » Sun Mar 15, 2009 1:03 pm

RedInkAus wrote:
vickson420 wrote:Red Ink you are right so now(back on topic) I would like to know what is another Australian keeper's opinion on Bloodbanks methods?Better or worse for them over conventional BD care methods?


Waiting for me, or Kirby perhaps? No other aussie has been around for a while here. I see Kirby a lot this days on an Aussie forum.

There are a few but I meant you :wink: I think there is a variation of opinions on all aspects of beardie care internationally and I would really like to be able to get all regional points of view.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby RedInkAus » Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:51 pm

vickson420 wrote:
RedInkAus wrote:
vickson420 wrote:Red Ink you are right so now(back on topic) I would like to know what is another Australian keeper's opinion on Bloodbanks methods?Better or worse for them over conventional BD care methods?


Waiting for me, or Kirby perhaps? No other aussie has been around for a while here. I see Kirby a lot this days on an Aussie forum.

There are a few but I meant you :wink: I think there is a variation of opinions on all aspects of beardie care internationally and I would really like to be able to get all regional points of view.



Fair enough, now before I comment on this i would just like to repeat myself that husbandry of reptiles is not an exact science, what works for some may not work for others. As far as Bloodbank dragons husbandry practices, I don't see a problem with it. Dragons in the wild would only bask in the morning and late afternoon so i suppose they are mimicking what a dragon would do naturally in the wild or rather not giving them a choice. Unfortunately from the info the OP has given us it does not say how Bloodbank dragons maintain their ideal temps as a few other posters have stated. They may turn off the basking lights for most part of the day but there is no mention of any other heat sources to achieve their ideal temps stated. There is no mention either if they turn off the UV lights as well, I assume being seasoned breeders they would not do something detremental like that. I personally do exactly the same thing in the summer months, even with my MVB it goes off on the hottest part of the day. The dragon will know that eventhough it is in an artificial environment that it is summer outside and that it will hide in a burrow on the hottest part of the day, No UV exposure at all. Hence in winter they know to brumate as well even if you don't change their temps inside the enclosure they know it's winter and time for the big sleep. I would recommend this practice for summer but only to seasoned herpers that know the behaviour of dragons as well as be able to read the subtle signs of what their dragons require. I would also want to point out that this should only apply (IMO) to older dragons, neonates and juvieniles tend to be more active than adults and as such need constant heating for growth as most know they eat a lot hence the constant heat for digestion.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby ghr15 » Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:54 pm

RedInkAus wrote:
vickson420 wrote:
RedInkAus wrote:
vickson420 wrote:Red Ink you are right so now(back on topic) I would like to know what is another Australian keeper's opinion on Bloodbanks methods?Better or worse for them over conventional BD care methods?


Waiting for me, or Kirby perhaps? No other aussie has been around for a while here. I see Kirby a lot this days on an Aussie forum.

There are a few but I meant you :wink: I think there is a variation of opinions on all aspects of beardie care internationally and I would really like to be able to get all regional points of view.



Fair enough, now before I comment on this i would just like to repeat myself that husbandry of reptiles is not an exact science, what works for some may not work for others. As far as Bloodbank dragons husbandry practices, I don't see a problem with it. Dragons in the wild would only bask in the morning and late afternoon so i suppose they are mimicking what a dragon would do naturally in the wild or rather not giving them a choice. Unfortunately from the info the OP has given us it does not say how Bloodbank dragons maintain their ideal temps as a few other posters have stated. They may turn off the basking lights for most part of the day but there is no mention of any other heat sources to achieve their ideal temps stated. There is no mention either if they turn off the UV lights as well, I assume being seasoned breeders they would not do something detremental like that. I personally do exactly the same thing in the summer months, even with my MVB it goes off on the hottest part of the day. The dragon will know that eventhough it is in an artificial environment that it is summer outside and that it will hide in a burrow on the hottest part of the day, No UV exposure at all. Hence in winter they know to brumate as well even if you don't change their temps inside the enclosure they know it's winter and time for the big sleep. I would recommend this practice for summer but only to seasoned herpers that know the behaviour of dragons as well as be able to read the subtle signs of what their dragons require. I would also want to point out that this should only apply (IMO) to older dragons, neonates and juvieniles tend to be more active than adults and as such need constant heating for growth as most know they eat a lot hence the constant heat for digestion.



If you have other heat sources what is the point of turning the light off? Even though beardies only bask in morning and evening still they are at a warm temperature even in there burrow. If they have no other heat source then no way would that be good for the beardies. Turning them off in a heatwave is the only time I would even call that a good idea. That is if you don't have air conditioning.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby RedInkAus » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:17 pm

ghr15 wrote:
RedInkAus wrote:
vickson420 wrote:
RedInkAus wrote:
vickson420 wrote:Red Ink you are right so now(back on topic) I would like to know what is another Australian keeper's opinion on Bloodbanks methods?Better or worse for them over conventional BD care methods?


Waiting for me, or Kirby perhaps? No other aussie has been around for a while here. I see Kirby a lot this days on an Aussie forum.

There are a few but I meant you :wink: I think there is a variation of opinions on all aspects of beardie care internationally and I would really like to be able to get all regional points of view.



Fair enough, now before I comment on this i would just like to repeat myself that husbandry of reptiles is not an exact science, what works for some may not work for others. As far as Bloodbank dragons husbandry practices, I don't see a problem with it. Dragons in the wild would only bask in the morning and late afternoon so i suppose they are mimicking what a dragon would do naturally in the wild or rather not giving them a choice. Unfortunately from the info the OP has given us it does not say how Bloodbank dragons maintain their ideal temps as a few other posters have stated. They may turn off the basking lights for most part of the day but there is no mention of any other heat sources to achieve their ideal temps stated. There is no mention either if they turn off the UV lights as well, I assume being seasoned breeders they would not do something detremental like that. I personally do exactly the same thing in the summer months, even with my MVB it goes off on the hottest part of the day. The dragon will know that eventhough it is in an artificial environment that it is summer outside and that it will hide in a burrow on the hottest part of the day, No UV exposure at all. Hence in winter they know to brumate as well even if you don't change their temps inside the enclosure they know it's winter and time for the big sleep. I would recommend this practice for summer but only to seasoned herpers that know the behaviour of dragons as well as be able to read the subtle signs of what their dragons require. I would also want to point out that this should only apply (IMO) to older dragons, neonates and juvieniles tend to be more active than adults and as such need constant heating for growth as most know they eat a lot hence the constant heat for digestion.



If you have other heat sources what is the point of turning the light off? Even though beardies only bask in morning and evening still they are at a warm temperature even in there burrow. If they have no other heat source then no way would that be good for the beardies. Turning them off in a heatwave is the only time I would even call that a good idea. That is if you don't have air conditioning.



I think Bloodbanks point is ambient heat Vs direct heat. Ambient is your air temp while a basking light is a direct heat source, what ever the light is shinning on it's what gets heated. To much direct heat will dehydrate your dragon. No diffrent from being in direct sunlight at 85 F or 85 F in the shade if your under the sun you will dehydrate faster.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby vickson420 » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:56 pm

Thanks RedInk
Actually I do understand the theroy behind and do see it as possible IF ambient temps were to remain stable and I agree I dont think it should ever be done with someone who is new to reptiles/beardies.Myself personally I wouldnt do it.I find its better to give them the benefit to choose when they want to bask however they all have access to an area they can "escape" to where the they can "burrow" in should they want to.I guess it has alot to do with climate as well.Our summer months are not usually extreme and even then my house temp remains the same.
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Re: How long should basking light be on?

Postby beardlover » Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:05 pm

The Virus -Beardies are just like every other living creature in regards to their ability to adapt. If we get cold we shiver, too hot and we start to sweat. Limiting your beardies light, heat, food, etc will not harm him right away, he will try to adapt and if he can't he will die. Just because a beardie is surviving doesn't make him happy, healthy or have "normal wild beardie behaviour".

The 'why' you keep mentioning is important if you don't know the answer as to 'why' you are doing something then maybe you shouldn't be doing it. But you also (IMO) have to keep your mind open to the idea that just because you have an answer to the all mighty 'why' question doesn't mean you are going about things in the best possible way. You need to take ideas and thoughts and point of views from as many different people in as many different situations before coming to a set conclusion.
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