Aaradimian":20pg4qkr said:
claudiusx":20pg4qkr said:
I agree that they can be different. How much different we don't know. However, another point i've made multiple times that doesn't want to be discussed apparently is genetic skin mutations, such as hypos, trans, leatherbacks, and silkies.
Obviously we know with silkies that they need extremely special care in regards to lighting. It is a foolish assumption that captive bred hypos/trans/leathers can tolerate the same uv levels as their wild counterparts, who usually are much darker, and with much thicker and spikey-er skin.
My whole problem with this whole uvb debate is that some people think that the stronger the better, that if you don't have the strongest bulb with a reflector and it be under the screen, that you're not doing it right. That you need to recreate natural UVI levels.
Basing what you provide for 12-15 hours of the day on 1 hour of the most extreme wild UVI is also foolish. Now, if you were to be able to have multiple uvb bulbs, and wanted to provide that type of uvi for an hour or so at noon time to replicate their natural environment, that would be a lot different than forcing them to be under that uvi level for the whole entire day.
There's certainly a validity to investigating the differences in morphs since it directly involves their skin. What percentage of the change is cosmetic from a UV standpoint? Do the same genes that code for spikes also help provide DNA protection from UVA? Questions like that. As we see from sad situations such as hip problems in black lab retrievers and breathing issues with bulldogs, selective breeding over generations can have a dark side.
<<< People who tinker with the genetics to produce dragons who have unnatural skin malformations are NOT doing their animals any favours.This has more to do with producing "designer" dragons who can attract a much higher price and human vanity than good p.vitticept husbandry.
In the absence of evidence one way or another, my initial feeling about varying UV over the course of a day is similar to yours. With my two, I have areas where they can escape the UV entirely, and varying heights under it so they can choose their exposure level. Unlike visible light bulbs, you have to maintain the temperature of the plasma to put out the correct wavelengths of UV, so a dimmer isn't an option (as far as I'm aware), so this is my "next best guess" at trying to provide a suitable environment for mine.
At a base level, I suspect that they "know" how much they're supposed to get,
<<< yes this is my direct personal observation for wild skinks , snakes , dragons and crocodiles in their natural ranges , they DO INDEED bask for short periods through out the day to
>> thermoregulate
>> to take their requirements of BOTH UVA & UVB and p.synthesis VitD3 in their skin, this UV irradiation is not done ALL IN ONE HIT , unlike with tame captive pet reptiles who will take longer to absorb enough UV to meet their biological needs than wild reptiles will as a consequence of the much lower UVA & UVB flux available to them in their tanks.
similar to them "knowing" how/when to brumate, and for how long. Again, without anything solid to go on, it's trial and error. I have already erred once with UV by providing too little per the guidelines on the Arcadia bulb I have as a result of underestimating the fall off in irradiance with distance (still much to learn about beardies!). I can only hope that I'm providing them with a happy, healthy home, but the scientist in me would feel a lot better with some research data to back up my observations on their well-being.
Some interesting science regarding reptilian skin c/f mammalian skin
>>> Adaptation to the Land: The Skin of Reptiles in Comparison to That of Amphibians and Endotherm Amniotes , L. Alibardi
ref Journal of Experimental Zoology Part B Molecular and Developmental Evolution 298(1):12-41 · August 2003
>>> Reptile scale paradigm: Evo-Devo, pattern formation and regeneration , Cheng.C, Ping.W, R.E. Baker,P.K. Maini, L.Alibardi, and Cheng-Ming.C.
ref Int J Dev Biol. 2009; 53(5-6): 813–826.
Even the most cursory scan of these scientific papers in peer reviewed scientific journals will show there is CONSIDERABLE differences between reptilian skin & mammalian skin ( and human skin ) and the response to UV is significantly different.
Sorry Brandon but hidden message boards don't cut the mustard as far as being a legitimate form of "evidence" , as those of us who have no access to the "hidden forum" have no way of checking the posts "copied" or the context of the comments claimed to have been made by "notables / experts" therein. You could just as easily created the post you claim to have received from chosen "expert" (Francis).
Furthermore : as far as I am aware , Francis has never actually claimed to visited visited Australia or spent any time in the Australian summer in the natural range of p.vitticepts or another other season in Australia to ACTUALLY observe the activity / behaviors of wild p.vitticepts. (Very few foreigners go to the outback or tropical north in summer (too hot for them)), they all go in the cooler tourist season (April to September), even then a coach load of tourists will rarely encounter shy reptile, whereas a small quiet family group like mine who are camping (in often very remote 4x4 access only locations like we did , regularly encountered wild reptile who rarely saw humans were more curious about us than scared of us ).
I live in Australia and have spend long years living & working in their natural range. Is my personal first hand observation that p.vitticepts do not disappear at noon UNLESS the temperature is above their normal activity temperature range and exceeds their voluntary maximum temperature of 41 degC.
p.vitticepts can frequently be observed basking and foraging through out the entire day even in summer in their natural range and their activity is more governed by the temperature than the UV flux (which they have evolved to tolerate even at extreme UV-Index (high UVB flux as high as about 0.5 mW UVB / sq.cm).
While there are heatwaves in summer in the natural range of p.vitticepts, these conditions don't last for the entire season or even most of it's duration and there are extended periods when it's very overcast while warm/hot.
More real data
ref from
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinnature.htm .
I have never recommended higher UVB flux than 200 microW UVB/sq.cm (equiv UV-Index about 7) , Arcadia Reptile this maximum UVB flux for p.vitticepts as well.