Wheezing/Coughing post-brumation

[Deabrua]

My 5yo female bearded dragon went into brumation in July and started roaming around again yesterday/today. I noticed today that she was coughing/wheezing or something. She'd puff up, lurch forward, and make a squeak sound of some sort. The coughing appears to stop when she's in her hide on the cool side of the tank, not completely confirmed yet. While elsewhere in/out of the tank, the coughing/wheezing/whatever occurs in series, 30 seconds of repeated then several minutes of nothing.

I'm currently trying to determine if this is something for an emergency vet to handle today, or if it's something that can wait until Monday for the usual reptile vet. Notably, I don't think a reptile vet is staffed in the ER today.

Husbandry -
60x28x29" tank
4" mixed sand/soil/clay substrate
102F basking spot
80F cool side
22-24% humidity

Weigh ins -
July 7th - 495g
Oct 14th - 487g
Oct 28th - 485g
Nov 10th - 480g
I have more weigh ins noted somewhere from july to oct but dont have them offhand for this post. Will search if needed.

 

[KarrieRee]

My 5yo female bearded dragon went into brumation in July and started roaming around again yesterday/today. I noticed today that she was coughing/wheezing or something. She'd puff up, lurch forward, and make a squeak sound of some sort. The coughing appears to stop when she's in her hide on the cool side of the tank, not completely confirmed yet. While elsewhere in/out of the tank, the coughing/wheezing/whatever occurs in series, 30 seconds of repeated then several minutes of nothing.

I'm currently trying to determine if this is something for an emergency vet to handle today, or if it's something that can wait until Monday for the usual reptile vet. Notably, I don't think a reptile vet is staffed in the ER today.

Husbandry -
60x28x29" tank
4" mixed sand/soil/clay substrate
102F basking spot
80F cool side
22-24% humidity

Weigh ins -
July 7th - 495g
Oct 14th - 487g
Oct 28th - 485g
Nov 10th - 480g
I have more weigh ins noted somewhere from july to oct but dont have them offhand for this post. Will search if needed.

How are you getting surface basking temps - NO stick ons please--- digital probe thermometers are the most accurate- what is the UVB coil or a long tube fixture? Where is the UVB if its a long tube fixture brand and bulb please? How old is the bulb? 4 months of brumation is a long time-- how are you getting the humidity levels - stick ons are inaccurate as well -

 

[Claudiusx]

Hi there,

Couple things of note that will hopefully ease your mind.

It's likely (and obvious) by the symptoms that there is in fact something going on with her lungs. The good news is, there is a good chance she will be able to fight it off herself.

Remember, in brumation, all of the bodies functions come to a stop/crawl. Including the ability to fight off infections. Your dragon just woke back up. Give her a chance to start warming up and eating and getting nutrients back in her body. Just like humans, dragons are able to fight off sickness's on their own without medication. Medication is only required when the body is unable to do so.

Make sure you're giving her a good diet full of nutrients, and make sure her temperatures are proper and she basking.

Typically, medications are only going to work for a bacterial URI anyways. A viral URI is going to need to be fought off by the body.

TLDR: Let your dragon come back to life (so to speak) and see if the issue resolves itself on its own. URI medications are very harsh, and are often given even without the vet checking if the URI is viral or bacterial.

-Brandon

 

[Deabrua]

How are you getting surface basking temps - NO stick ons please--- digital probe thermometers are the most accurate- what is the UVB coil or a long tube fixture? Where is the UVB if its a long tube fixture brand and bulb please? How old is the bulb? 4 months of brumation is a long time-- how are you getting the humidity levels - stick ons are inaccurate as well -

I've a herpstat with temp probe and humidity probe, a separate digital thermometer, and a digital hygrometer. Reptisun 34" 10.0 UVB T5HO tube, I don't recall measurements from basking spot offhand currently. It's off-center to the warm side of the tank.

Hi there,

Couple things of note that will hopefully ease your mind.

It's likely (and obvious) by the symptoms that there is in fact something going on with her lungs. The good news is, there is a good chance she will be able to fight it off herself.

Remember, in brumation, all of the bodies functions come to a stop/crawl. Including the ability to fight off infections. Your dragon just woke back up. Give her a chance to start warming up and eating and getting nutrients back in her body. Just like humans, dragons are able to fight off sickness's on their own without medication. Medication is only required when the body is unable to do so.

Make sure you're giving her a good diet full of nutrients, and make sure her temperatures are proper and she basking.

Typically, medications are only going to work for a bacterial URI anyways. A viral URI is going to need to be fought off by the body.

TLDR: Let your dragon come back to life (so to speak) and see if the issue resolves itself on its own. URI medications are very harsh, and are often given even without the vet checking if the URI is viral or bacterial.

-Brandon

I made a mistake in my original post. Basking temp was cutoff at 99F with cold side at 85F. I will return her to her usual 104 / 85 in the coming days. I did confirm this doesn't occur when she remains on the cold side of the tank, starts to occur on the warm side, and occurs far more frequently outside of the tank.

After talking with one of her reptile vets and a vet tech from another vet location, we've decided to monitor her over the weekend and have her seen on Monday. I'd be more willing to let things play out before going to the vet, but the wheezing/coughing/etc is fairly rapid at every 5-10 seconds and she began to black beard after awhile of this. She also began to claw at the sides of her hide at one point, which is abnormal for her.

 

[KarrieRee]

I've a herpstat with temp probe and humidity probe, a separate digital thermometer, and a digital hygrometer. Reptisun 34" 10.0 UVB T5HO tube, I don't recall measurements from basking spot offhand currently. It's off-center to the warm side of the tank.


I made a mistake in my original post. Basking temp was cutoff at 99F with cold side at 85F. I will return her to her usual 104 / 85 in the coming days. I did confirm this doesn't occur when she remains on the cold side of the tank, starts to occur on the warm side, and occurs far more frequently outside of the tank.

After talking with one of her reptile vets and a vet tech from another vet location, we've decided to monitor her over the weekend and have her seen on Monday. I'd be more willing to let things play out before going to the vet, but the wheezing/coughing/etc is fairly rapid at every 5-10 seconds and she began to black beard after awhile of this. She also began to claw at the sides of her hide at one point, which is abnormal for her.

Let's see what Tracie has to say
@Drache613

 

[Deabrua]

To clarify, the wheezing/coughing/whatever is still in bursts, not constant. It's still only on warm side of tank (90-100F, 20s humidity) or outside of tank (80F, unknown humidity), not occurring in cold side hide (80-85F, unknown humidity). Not currently able to drop the cold side of the tank below 80F due to ambient room temps.

 

[Deabrua]

The vet is more focused on doing blood work, vitamin injections, ultrasound, and x-rays because they believe a healthy dragon with correct husbandry shouldn't have gone into brumation in the first place. Have not bothered to tryn listen to or check her breathing.

Blood work - check for infections or organ issues such as liver/kidney

Ultrasound/xray- check for follicular stasis because she hasn't laid eggs in 2+ years

Vitamin injections - VIT A&D, B12, and calcium gluconate to replenish what was lost during the 4mo brumation, though I'm not sure why this couldn't be done through a supplemented diet

UPDATE: agreed to bloodwork, ultrasound, and xray. Choosing to supplement feeding instead of vitamin injections. TBD on medications based on what their recommendations are post diags, but im leaning against unless absolutely necessary. They wanted to preemptively give meds but I don't agree with medicating unknown issues.

 

[KarrieRee]

The vet is more focused on doing blood work, vitamin injections, ultrasound, and x-rays because they believe a healthy dragon with correct husbandry shouldn't have gone into brumation in the first place. Have not bothered to tryn listen to or check her breathing.

Blood work - check for infections or organ issues such as liver/kidney

Ultrasound/xray- check for follicular stasis because she hasn't laid eggs in 2+ years

Vitamin injections - VIT A&D, B12, and calcium gluconate to replenish what was lost during the 4mo brumation, though I'm not sure why this couldn't be done through a supplemented diet

Flagging to Tracie again
@Drache613

 

[Deabrua]

Update:

They found no issues with her lungs and she has not shown wheezing/coughing or anything since Sunday morning.

White blood cell count is lower than normal. They want to put her on antibiotics due to the low white blood cell count.

Ultrasound showed floating fluid in her body cavity that may be really old eggs that she's struggling to reabsorb.

If she hasn't improved within a few weeks, they want to proceed with an exploration surgery that they said would likely result in a spay.

Aren't surgeries / spays extremely dangerous for them?

Update 2: she's basking again

Update 3: anti-inflammatory is 1.5mg/mL meloxicam given 0.16mL every other day totaling 7 doses. Anti-biotic is 240mg/5mL SMZ TMP given 0.2mL daily totaling 14 doses. No cancer cells found.

Almost every mention of these meds be it from other vets discussing dosages online, research articles, or forum posts from owners mention dosage on Meloxicam no higher than 0.2mg/kg. This is 0.5mg/kg. This greatly concerns me.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

First off, the vet is incorrect regarding brumation. Dragons who are healthy have absolutely no
problem with going into brumation. If they have some health issues, then they shouldn't be
allowed to go into brumation until they are healthy again.
Could something in the tank be causing her coughing/wheezing? I noticed that she has a sand
& clay substrate in her tank, could that possibly be causing some respiratory distress?
In many cases, their white blood cell counts can be depressed if they are slown down for a brumation
phase. This may or may not be the case here but just throwing that out there.
I agree, that Meloxicam dose should be lowered but not sure she needs to be on that right now.
Most of the time, surgeries for spaying are pretty routine. Exploratory surgery is usually a fairly
common surgery too. Are they sure that is needed, I hate for her to go through too many surgeries.
I would caution against giving anymore calcium injections & D3 injections as too much if not needed
can cause renal failure in some cases.
Do you have a copy of the blood test by chance?

Tracie

 

[Deabrua]

Their thoughts on brumation among other things are why I heavily question everything they've stated/decided yesterday, but they're unfortunately the go-to reptile vet within a... quite large area here.

The substrate is primarily reptisoil. Relatively small amounts of playsand or clay. While it's definitely possible that could contribute, I would just say she's been on this substrate 24/7 since April/May in addition to frequenting her dig box for more than just laying eggs.

We already agreed that if we give her Meloxicam, we're cutting it by at least 20% (0.4mg/kg vs 0.5mg/kg). We aren't sure about the SMZ TMP

The surgeries would be in response to not reabsorbing... something from the eggs. I forget what the word for it was. Follicle? They said they can't confirm follicular stasis without a second check in after some time. Aside from seeing something on ultrasound, they were also concerned about an orange liquid accompanying her feces/urate as well. I'm also adverse to this unless absolutely necessary.

I dont believe I have a copy of the blood work, but I can certainly request one alongside the xrays/anything else they did. I unfortunately had to leave pretty early in the appointment to let me partner take care of the rest, so she may have more information as well.

Edit: The wheezing has still not reoccurred since Sunday. Aside from while being handled by vet, no more grey/black bearding either. Concern has shifted to focus on the.. whatever the ultrasound found, and low white blood cell count.

Also, I changed her heat bulbs out yesterday on a hunch that neither dragon liked the bulbs I had in this setup. Will see if she basks more now.

 

[Deabrua]

I have confirmed they will send over the blood work, xrays, and ultrasound stills within the next few days.

 

[Claudiusx]

Like I mentioned last week. The body just went through a long period of basically not doing any work. It needs time to reboot. Over zealous vets like this are what cause normally healthy dragons to die.

Your blood work would be a little funky too if you just went comatose for 2 months. Same goes for your bowel movement.

I get that you are worried and it's hard to take advice from a stranger on the internet, but exactly what your vet did is exactly what we see time and time again happen here, completely unnecessary and potentially life threatening if you were lesser educated on the subject and took the vets word at face value.

-Brandon

 

[Deabrua]

That is exactly why I'm hesitant to provide any medication much less the dosages that they prescribed, or to agree to surgeries etc. Hence the phrasing "IF we give her meloxicam." Especially given their misconceptions on several matters. It's why I'm sharing information for additional input here.

Unfortunately I wasn't present during the end of the check-in to deny the medications, so we have them offhand now.

I'm starting with the supplemented diet, new light bulb, and going from there. Also going to ensure the UVB is replaced at its upcoming necessary time and we got fresh calcium recently.

I'm probably going to make a post in... is it nutrition? Feeding? Health? Idr the forums off hand as it's been awhile, but a post to discuss current feedings.

If she starts the breathing issues again, I may move her to another tank with solid substrate temporarily to rule that out.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How is your girl doing today?
Maybe moving her to another tank with solid substrate might help.
It can get quite frustrating when vets automatically medicate for no justified reason. Reptiles
don't always respond to medications very well, so sometimes it is best to wait.

Let us know how things are going.
Tracie