What could I be doing wrong?

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I have a 5 yr old dragon, Amusei. Up until last October life for him was great. That was when I began to noticed he would have a black beard and belly with darker stripes. He also started to become less actiive when we took him out to run free range. In addition, he would slide from his basking rock and occasionally flip on his back. He could recover and flip himself, though I would sometimes jump up and help him because it made me nervous. I replaced his UVB light and yet he continued to become more lazy...alert and watching just not walking much. I took him to the vet when 20 days had passed and he hadn't pooped. We reviewed his diet, lights, housing all of which he said was fine. He got a fecal sample after helping him poop, Ran tests and came back saying he had coccidia and put him on Ponazuril for 28 days. I managed 21 days with him taking it before I decided it was causing more stress trying to have him take it. I have read the full 28 days is not necessary, however the vet wanted it given as instructed.

Bath time he was drinking water for the first time ever. Also, he only goes poop in the bathwater since he was younger and thinking impaction was instructed to bath 2 times a day. I deep cleaned his house like crazy every week and still I felt something wasn't right. Took him back to vet for blood work which I was told was good. Calcium was on the higher end of normal. Liver enzymes the same, high end but normal.
Replaced the UVB light again just in case the one put in October wasn't good. Took him to a second vet who agreed with first vet (wasn't impressed with her at all). Even though I mentioned that his left rear leg seemed to be giving him problems. She stated full ROM and strength.
2 days later while climbing down off his rock his left leg seemed weak and he suddenly fell. Again landing on back. Took him to see 3rd vet for emergency appointment. X-rays came back perfect. This vet took a long time talking with us and I explained how I felt it had to do with his lights as they were higher temps when measuring them. I have both a probe light that I place on his rock while he is out and a temp gun. He is walking more and almost running compared to previously. But, still has black beard and appears stressed at times though. I never measured everyday his temperature before all this started.

So 5 yrs old 40 gallon tank (because we take him out so much we never upgraded).
Diet: he eats better than me. Greens: mustard, turnip, dandelion, collard, endive, arugula, acorn and butternut squash. Occasionally green peppers, strawberries, blueberries, grapes, celery leaves. He is fed every other day per vet in 2016 when last blood work showed fatty liver disease. Treated and was fine since. Have been instructed to cut down on fruit. He also has Phoenix worms, hornworms, and occasionally superworms. Was instructed to provide Dubia roaches. He will not eat crickets.
Food is dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus

He has reptile carpet with a basking rock and then a bed on the cool side. Keeping it simple with him falling.

His lights and temps which at this point are where my concern lie and I have tried several brands and wattage.
I use a Zoo med reptisun 10.0 T8 in a Zoo med reflector fixture that goes the entire way across his house which is on a screen. Basking is 100 watt and nighttime a 50 watt CHE.
So nighttime gets to 67 degrees, I have turned on the CHE and that gets to 77. Basking 100 though again I measure and get higher temps sometimes and other times it seems low. Like around 89. Honestly I am thinking I am nuts when it comes to these lights. When I had the 75 watt in it would be around 90-93. I have heard and read so many variables with regards to temps. Going by the last vet, he said for our area which is experiencing temps in the single digits he recommends that his basking side should be between 95-100. Never over 102.

I am concerned that he may not be getting the correct MVB. Wondering if I should add a MVB for additional UVB.

Any suggestions?
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there, it very well could be that he's not getting enough uvb since you have a t8 sitting on the screen. Attach it under the screen like this :

https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/30028/full

Just use picture hanging wire or something similar. If you live where it's warm take him pout in the sun. BTW, I can't believe the vet ordered 28 days of Ponazuril, it often works in just 2-3 doses ! Neither of your vets seem helpful really.
 

Amuseismom

Member
Original Poster
First AHBD thank you for reading thru the thesis I wrote about my dragon..lol. I have a tendency to write a lot. I agree the vets that I am seeing while nice and trying to help definitely are not reptile vets. Though the first one admitted he has treated dragons he would advice me to follow up with someone who is actually a reptile vet. The problem I am having with taking him out now is there are days I barely leave the house it's so cold. I feel the risks are not worth it. The nearest reptile vet is over 3 hours away.
Especially when I am being told he has been eating and pooping, strong muscle tone, and good ROM, etc. That's why I was hoping for suggestions on here. And I read so much for weeks I think I knew what suggestions would be made. Yes. 28 days was ridiculous. I think I read bena something would help his belly feel better.

I will see if moving his UVB light helps. Again was told it was fine and was designed to sit on top.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Amuseismom":11f3y8rd said:
I have a 5 yr old dragon, Amusei. Up until last October life for him was great. That was when I began to noticed he would have a black beard and belly with darker stripes. He also started to become less actiive when we took him out to run free range. In addition, he would slide from his basking rock and occasionally flip on his back. He could recover and flip himself, though I would sometimes jump up and help him because it made me nervous. I replaced his UVB light and yet he continued to become more lazy...alert and watching just not walking much. I took him to the vet when 20 days had passed and he hadn't pooped. We reviewed his diet, lights, housing all of which he said was fine. He got a fecal sample after helping him poop, Ran tests and came back saying he had coccidia and put him on Ponazuril for 28 days. I managed 21 days with him taking it before I decided it was causing more stress trying to have him take it. I have read the full 28 days is not necessary, however the vet wanted it given as instructed.

<<<< was this vet actually a REPTILE VET / HERP VET ?


Bath time he was drinking water for the first time ever. Also, he only goes poop in the bathwater since he was younger and thinking impaction was instructed to bath 2 times a day. I deep cleaned his house like crazy every week and still I felt something wasn't right. Took him back to vet for blood work which I was told was good. Calcium was on the higher end of normal. Liver enzymes the same, high end but normal.
Replaced the UVB light again just in case the one put in October wasn't good. Took him to a second vet who agreed with first vet (wasn't impressed with her at all). Even though I mentioned that his left rear leg seemed to be giving him problems. She stated full ROM and strength.
2 days later while climbing down off his rock his left leg seemed weak and he suddenly fell. Again landing on back. Took him to see 3rd vet for emergency appointment. X-rays came back perfect. This vet took a long time talking with us and I explained how I felt it had to do with his lights as they were higher temps when measuring them. I have both a probe light that I place on his rock while he is out and a temp gun. He is walking more and almost running compared to previously. But, still has black beard and appears stressed at times though. I never measured everyday his temperature before all this started.

So 5 yrs old 40 gallon tank (because we take him out so much we never upgraded).
<<< needs to be upsized to a 4ft x 2ft footprint tank, best option is timber with solid timber lid and front sliding door for access.

Diet: he eats better than me. Greens: mustard, turnip, dandelion, collard, endive, arugula, acorn and butternut squash. Occasionally green peppers, strawberries, blueberries, grapes, celery leaves. He is fed every other day per vet in 2016 when last blood work showed fatty liver disease. Treated and was fine since. Have been instructed to cut down on fruit. He also has Phoenix worms, hornworms, and occasionally superworms. Was instructed to provide Dubia roaches. He will not eat crickets.
Food is dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus

>>> regards proper diet and supplementation , see this : viewtopic.php?f=18&t=236074

regarding staple feeders : see this viewtopic.php?f=76&t=234999&p=1807834#p1807834
select for highest Ca/P , best % protein and avoid mealworms , superworms , waxworms , as these are best only offered as treats / bribes due to their poor Ca/P and high fat content , plus superworms and mealworms have a hard to digest exoskeleton that can accumulate and result in GIT blockages.


He has reptile carpet with a basking rock and then a bed on the cool side. Keeping it simple with him falling.

His lights and temps which at this point are where my concern lie and I have tried several brands and wattage.
I use a Zoo med reptisun 10.0 T8 in a Zoo med reflector fixture that goes the entire way across his house which is on a screen. Basking is 100 watt and nighttime a 50 watt CHE.

<<<< Issues may be neurological due to inadequate UVA provided by a screened T8 UVB tube.
I STRONGLY SUGGEST upgrading to a T5ho 12% UVB tube (Arcadia are superb) in a T5ho reflector hood which should be mounted UNDER the lid and about 12 inches from the basking spot.
See this for establish correct UV and thermal gradient in a bearded dragon tank and to help you understand the effect if mesh , reflectors , and performance of a selection of different types of UV source.
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611
There is no problem with having a good MVB + a T5ho 12% UVB tube in reflector hood in bearded dragon tank with the MVB over the basking spot and the T5ho tube covering about 2/3 the length of the tank.

So nighttime gets to 67 degrees, I have turned on the CHE and that gets to 77. Basking 100 though again I measure and get higher temps sometimes and other times it seems low. Like around 89. Honestly I am thinking I am nuts when it comes to these lights. When I had the 75 watt in it would be around 90-93. I have heard and read so many variables with regards to temps. Going by the last vet, he said for our area which is experiencing temps in the single digits he recommends that his basking side should be between 95-100. Never over 102.

I am concerned that he may not be getting the correct MVB. Wondering if I should add a MVB for additional UVB.

Any suggestions?
 

Amuseismom

Member
Original Poster
Thanks for answering and providing so much info. I now have a splitting headache and feel like I am going to either cry or throw up. I hate thinking of all we have been doing incorrectly. However, I am determined to take the steps needed to immediately get Amusei what he needs to feel better.

Only the last vet that we saw "specializes in Avian and exotic pets". I learned more from him than anyone else. He also mentioned it could be neurological and that is why I am feeling the way I do because you mentioned that as well. If we make changes will they be corrected? In the last 3-4 days he has not fallen and is walking more. But still stressed with his black beard. I take him out to hold him and he looks better.

So the type of house you recommended, is there any chance you know of where I could get something like that? I am in the USA. I haven't yet begun to look online.

I will also need to research where I can get the correct lights that he needs.

I am going to order some Dubia roaches for him as soon as I finish this. He seems to have a difficult time with digesting hornworms. We stopped mealworms. And the superworms I have now will be discarded.

I also read on here that when on meds to provide them with a probiotic. I believe there is a link on here somewhere where I can get those.

Just wanted to add something....I have been a caregiver for my husband who passed away 6 years ago and then my parents. My parents both passed away last year from cancer 6 weeks apart. Life has not been easy for my son and I. Not that I need to explain that, but I just wanted to mention it so that anyone reading this would understand what I feel is lack of attention with Amusei with everything going on. My son and I are making this a priority in the hopes Amusei will get feeling like his old happy self. I worry about him like I do my son.

Thank you!
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Amuseismom":wgbwgz6q said:
Thanks for answering and providing so much info. I now have a splitting headache and feel like I am going to either cry or throw up. I hate thinking of all we have been doing incorrectly. However, I am determined to take the steps needed to immediately get Amusei what he needs to feel better.

Only the last vet that we saw "specializes in Avian and exotic pets". I learned more from him than anyone else. He also mentioned it could be neurological and that is why I am feeling the way I do because you mentioned that as well. If we make changes will they be corrected? In the last 3-4 days he has not fallen and is walking more. But still stressed with his black beard. I take him out to hold him and he looks better.

Avian/exotic vets are not the best , but better than general vets.
The neurological issues can take a while to go away all depends on if damage is severe or not.

I made the mistake a few years ago of forgetting when I was scheduled to change my UV source, I observed my girl Rex show intermittent head shakes / shivers . Bought a new UV globe and the issues took a couple of months to clear up.

No guarantees here though.


So the type of house you recommended, is there any chance you know of where I could get something like that? I am in the USA. I haven't yet begun to look online.

Look for a self assembled (flat packed) timber tank 4ft x 2ft , no less than 1.5ft tall , with a glass front (sliding doors).
Something like
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VIVEXOTIC-BEARDED-DRAGON-KIT-SETUP-REPTILE-VIVARIUM-EQUIPMENT-LIGHT-SPOT-BULB-/192006821962
or
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PawHut-Home-Reptiles-Vivarium-House-Snake-Lizard-Habitat-Leopard-Gecko-Medium-/302987005422

Most keepers here in Australia who are serious build their own , often starts off as a tallboy, a cabinet , a modular melamine or particle board or MDF pantry , a coffee table, or a timber tv cabinet and is converted.
I'd give those fibre glass and PVC tanks some companies sell a wide berth.





I will also need to research where I can get the correct lights that he needs.

I am going to order some Dubia roaches for him as soon as I finish this. He seems to have a difficult time with digesting hornworms. We stopped mealworms. And the superworms I have now will be discarded.
The supers and mealworms are OK as treats ONLY , no more than 2 or 3 supers in a sitting, no more than 6 or 8 mealworms in a sitting , no more than once a week.
Some put a few mealworms in the salad dish to encourage fussy dragons to eat the salad (the worms are attractants).

Can't comment on hornworms , but my skinks and dragons love silkworms (very similar looking except not as "pretty" coloured and silkworms eat mulberry leaves (which are an excellent green for the lizards too).

I also read on here that when on meds to provide them with a probiotic. I believe there is a link on here somewhere where I can get those.

That's what some on this board do, the board owner sells probiotics. I can't comment on the worth of giving probiotics to a dragon , I'm not one for "food fads" .

Just wanted to add something....I have been a caregiver for my husband who passed away 6 years ago and then my parents. My parents both passed away last year from cancer 6 weeks apart. Life has not been easy for my son and I. Not that I need to explain that, but I just wanted to mention it so that anyone reading this would understand what I feel is lack of attention with Amusei with everything going on. My son and I are making this a priority in the hopes Amusei will get feeling like his old happy self. I worry about him like I do my son.

Thank you!
 

Amuseismom

Member
Original Poster
Glad to hear Rex got better. Yes, no guarantees but hopefully we see Improvement once changes are made. I forgot to mention that the vet did put him on Metacam 0.3 ml for 10 days in case he had any inflammation. That could be why he has not fallen. I will hold off on probiotics since he seems to be eating well.

Thanks for breaking down the amounts of superworms and mealworns. I was concerned with giving him any. I will order some silkworms as well, the hornworms... ugh I kept them stored as directed and they still grew fast. Not pretty.
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Amuseismom":2i1yo9wg said:
Glad to hear Rex got better. Yes, no guarantees but hopefully we see Improvement once changes are made. I forgot to mention that the vet did put him on Metacam 0.3 ml for 10 days in case he had any inflammation. That could be why he has not fallen. I will hold off on probiotics since he seems to be eating well.

Thanks for breaking down the amounts of superworms and mealworns. I was concerned with giving him any. I will order some silkworms as well, the hornworms... ugh I kept them stored as directed and they still grew fast. Not pretty.

Unused Hornworms (like unused large silkworms , if you don't let them pupate / make cocoons and then become moths and mate and lay eggs) can be blanched and then frozen for use as a backup protein source for you dragon later.
The moths are great treats for a dragon too.
viewtopic.php?f=76&t=225919
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Sorry to hear about all you've gone through recently. Those are devastating life experiences that make us more fragile ,and then everything else can make us extremely worried as to who gets sick next, fear of losing someone or something else we love.


As for mounting a bulb in the tank, the t8 will also do the trick. That was the first thing I mentioned and yes, the lack of uva + uvb can cause these symptoms which is why I suggested mounting the light in the tank. A Reptisun 10.0 t5 is stronger though. Since your dragon is not real well right now I don't know that I'd recommend a new tank since changing tanks can be a new source of stress. Getting him proper uvb is the key right now.
 

Amuseismom

Member
Original Poster
Yesterday morning I decided that the most important thing to do was get his UVB so it is directly reaching him without mesh. I figured that we can order a new house after we see how he does.

So I got everything ready and then realized that the house and the UVB are both the same length. 36" So it would not fit into the tank. So much for that idea. This is what I ended up doing. I completely removed the mesh lid. There is no way he is close enough to get out. The UVB light fixture was then placed over his house. His basking light I moved into a clamp lamp dome and placed over his basking rock.

The only problem with this setup is we also have two cats. Though they are all friends, Amusei will fall right asleep practically laying on them, I would not trust them alone with him. So they are in my bedroom with the door shut. I check on them and let them out and was right next to Amusei the whole time. At night time I placed the mesh screen back on.

This morning Amusei decided after pooping that he wanted to run around and around around. I felt like he was trying to look at everything he hasn't been able to walk to in awhile. I know it's only been one day, and that he has a long road to recovery.

I am very upset that 3 vets told me that my set up was fine. I even questioned and mentioned lights over and over again. But, I will be researching to find a herp vet.

With the arrangement I have now, what would you guys recommend as the next step?
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
It's best to keep the cats away, they don't need to see each other and even a friendly playful cat could snag him with their claws or want to carry him like a baby.

As for the lights, see if you can find an under counter fixture at Lowe's or Home Depot that is smaller than the black pet store fixture, like this. Then just add some aluminum foil behind the light to increase the uvb projecting donward..

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwiSkYP6k4zgAhVQuMAKHctQD_sYABATGgJpbQ&sig=AOD64_2JTUDhY13RFffcVPu-yMGAkvmUpQ&ctype=5&q=&ved=0ahUKEwj65vr5k4zgAhUD7YMKHXraBt8Q9aACCD8&adurl=

In the long run you can but a new light + fixture but that will work for now.
 
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