Vet wants me to prevent brumation?

[milo0]

Hey all. I have a 4 1/2 year old beardie that gave me a health scare earlier this year. He hasn't been acting like himself, and had become very lethargic. This started after he had brumated for nearly 3 months. When I took him to the vet, he was diagnosed with possible liver disease since she had seen some yellowing in his mouth. She told me that sometimes they can lose too much weight during brumation and put stress on the liver. That's what happened in my case... I didn't fatten him up enough in time and unfortunately those were the consequences. I force fed him for a month, then just started feeding him worms everyday (he doesn't eat veggies, I've tried for years and he will never eat them). However, he gets a mix of waxworms, butterworms, silkworms, hornworms, phoeniex worms, and rarely superworms. So protein wise, he's good. These are the only things he will eat... he doesn't touch crickets or dubias.

So it's been 4 months since I took him to the vet. He looks WAY healthier in terms of weight, but he still doesn't have any energy (unless I take him out of the cage). However, all of the yellowing in his mouth has completely disappeared, which most likely means I stopped the liver disease from progressing. Even my vet said that was a definite good sign since that usually means they make a full recovery. But these past 2 weeks, he's been losing he appetite and started looking very sleepy, so I know he wants to brumate... However, when I called my vet yesterday, she advised against it. She feared he still wasn't healthy enough to go through that process again, and that I should just handle him often and take him out a lot to prevent him from sleeping. I'm worried about this though, because everywhere I've read has told me do not ever intervene when they're wanting to brumate (unless emergencies). I'm afraid if I prevent him from doing what is natural to him, he will become stressed and possibly sick again. To make matters worse, I'm leaving him for 3-4 weeks with my roommate who will be caring for him. Originally I had told her to just let him sleep and bathe once a week, but now I'm going to need her to make sure he stays awake... The problem is, he's becoming more grumpy as the weeks go on because he's not being allowed to brumate. I've never seen him angry, ever. He's an extremely mellow, tame beardie who has never once bit or even showed an ounce of aggression. The other night though, he was gaping his mouth at me when holding him and looking a little dark, so I just put him back in his cage. I don't think he'd ever bite anyone, but I do worry that he'll become more aggressive in the next few weeks if I continue preventing him brumating.

So, I'm in a tough predicament. I was thinking of letting him maybe sleep for 2-3 weeks max and then wake him up, but I don't know if that would be worse since it's in the middle of the process. I just don't want to so more harm than good, so I really don't know what's best for him right now. What are your thoughts?

 

[Rankins]

I would try to do what your vet recommends. He/she has seen the dragon in person.
Try to keep temps within the recommend ranges and day lengths long. It can help prevent or shorten brumation. It doesn't always work and your dragon still may try to brumate anyway.
But last thing you want is for a compromised animal to enter a long brumation when its not in tip-top shape.

 

[milo0]

I would try to do what your vet recommends. He/she has seen the dragon in person.
Try to keep temps within the recommend ranges and day lengths long. It can help prevent or shorten brumation. It doesn't always work and your dragon still may try to brumate anyway.
But last thing you want is for a compromised animal to enter a long brumation when its not in tip-top shape.

I keep his lights on for 12 hours everyday, but usually shortened them during the winter to 10. Should I increase the hours more to maybe 13 or 14 hours?

 

[kingofnobbys]

I would try to do what your vet recommends. He/she has seen the dragon in person.
Try to keep temps within the recommend ranges and day lengths long. It can help prevent or shorten brumation. It doesn't always work and your dragon still may try to brumate anyway.
But last thing you want is for a compromised animal to enter a long brumation when its not in tip-top shape.

I keep his lights on for 12 hours everyday, but usually shortened them during the winter to 10. Should I increase the hours more to maybe 13 or 14 hours?

I recommend lights and heat on for 15-16 hrs per day, my beardies have this year round , and have never wanted to brumate. (Nor have my skinks).

Totally not necessary for a pampered well fed captive (pet) lizard to ever brumate. Only happens in the wild if they food supply diminishes and temperatures fall too low to keep a lizard active.

 

[AHBD]

I would let him brumate for the 3-4 weeks while you're away. That's nothing at all compared to 3 months. Then you can start handling him again when you get back. Can you post a few full body shots to show his size ?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

It is very normal for them to want to brumate & actually gives their hormones a good balancing act, too.
When we first got our male, he was only a few months old if that. Once he hit 6 months or so, at 500 grams he started showing signs of wanting to brumate. I got concerned & tried to keep him out of it, but he started losing a bit of weight & exhibiting signs of stress.
So, I let him go ahead & brumate for a few months & he was fine. He finished growing & everything once he came out.
It's hard to decide since your boy did have some liver issues previously. He is definitely showing stress which could elevate his levels of parasites. You could give him some milk thistle weekly, when getting him out to check on him. That would help keep his liver enzymes in check.
Good luck with him!

Tracie

 

[Rankins]

Typically I always recommend brumation, its normal and healthy. The concern I have is we have not seen the animal, the vet has.

 

[milo0]

Here's a picture of him tonight. He had gone back into his cave and was sleeping all day, so I pulled him out. He's not very happy with me right now... Got a very sleepy beardie on my hands.

Thats what I was thinking, is just let him brumate during my vacation then wake him up when I'm back. I just hope I wouldn't stress him out to much by doing that... But he depseratly wants to sleep. He's getting very annoyed with me continuing to wake him up lol. Also, to help fatten him up, this past month is has eaten nearly 100 silkworms so he should be more than enough full and ready.


Here's how he is currently. I tried weighing him tonight but our scale is broken. It did quickly show that he was close to 500 grams possibly, which means he gained about 120 grams since the first vet visit. He's got a nice amount of fat in his tail and head fat pads too so I think he would be fine with a month of brumation. How do you guys think he looks?

 

[AHBD]

Yes, he looks fit enough. I agree that it may be best to prevent a long brumaton which is what you'll be doing, but letting him sleep for 3-4 weeks should be fine and will eliminate the need for your friend to have to stress him out while you're away.

 

[Rankins]

Now that we have seen him he does appear healthy enough. But as AHBD suggested just keep it a short one.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I agree, he looks healthy enough & sleepy too. You can let him have short bouts of sleep, then take him out, feed him, etc & keep him up a bit, then see what he does.
He is a leatherback, correct? That is most likely why he has some liver issues, they are somewhat inbred which causes health problems.
I recommend starting him on milk thistle or serrapeptase on a regular basis to help the liver detoxify & heal itself.
It will stress him less though if he can sleep while you are gone. If he happens to come out then great, your friend can get some fluids into him, or a little food & have him bask awhile.

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[milo0]

Thanks guys! Yeah he has been desperatly trying to sleep so I will just start letting him in the next few days. Trying to feed him off the remaining silkworms I have first, then I'll let him empty out his stomach and let him sleep. I'm only going to have my roommate take him out once a week to bathe him, warm up for a bit, then he'll probably go back in his hide. I feel so bad for him... I had him out last night trying to keep him awake and poor guy was snuggling into my stomach trying to find anywhere to sleep. I'll let him go at it until about the 2nd week of January, then it'll be rise and shine for him. :mrgreen:

Thanks everyone for your replies, really appreciate it! And I will look into the milk thistle as soon as he gets through this brumation. I don't want to keep bugging him... he's getting very annoyed with me. Question though- how many drops of this would he need and how often? And do I mix it with anything or just directly squirt it into his mouth?

 

[milo0]

Milo is officially down for the count. I'm leaving his lights off and will just let him be from now on. He refused to eat anymore worms so I don't think I could have convinced him out of this even if I wanted to haha. Not even his favorite worms would convince him not to sleep. :wink:

I do have a little question though- I will be moving him to my roommates house to live with her for the break, but since he's sleeping, I don't see a need to move the entire cage. I was thinking I could just put a 40 gallon rubbermaid container, lined with some blankets, a hide, etc, just for the time being since he'll probably sleep the entire time. I raised my baby beardies this way and they did really well, so I think he should be okay for a month in this? I'll bring his lights, food, etc as well but I just don't see the need to hassle with lugging his 40Gallon tank all the way to her house, if he's not even going to use it other than sleep. What are your suggestions? The only time he'll be awake anyways is when he's bathed once a week, otherwise he just needs a spot to sleep. I think this should work?

 

[kingofnobbys]

Keep a very close eye on him , including regular weighins.

If need be wake him to give him a drink and let him poo (if he hasn't already - you don't want a poo just sitting there inside him and rotting).

I'm sure others will give advise on how often to wake him to let him drink and bask.

 

[AHBD]

Yes, that would be fine. I'd only offer water if it appears that he's awake. Just drip it on his snout to see if he'll drink. A few drips, then stop....repeat. If he drinks, fine. otherwise no need to shock him with a bath. I've never soaked a single dragon during brumation in over 20 years. It does nothing unless they are dehydrated and want a drink, which they should accept from the dripping method if thirsty.

Then be sure there is no water left puddled under him. If he's lying on a blanket be sure to stick a wad of paper towel under his chin to catch any water so the blanket doesn't get wet. I use newspaper for my guys. If you think he's wet at all you can turn a basking light or a CHE on for a few hours to be sure he's dry. The same would apply esp. if you decide to bathe him. In 4 weeks offering water 1-2X would be fine.