Vet wants me to consider putting down

[Drache613]

Hello Brandon,

How is little Zilla doing?
The slurries sound fine. Does she seem to enjoy the squash & sweet potato addition?
I hope you didn't have any damaging storms, that is always stressful.
How are her fatpads on her head looking now? It sounds like she is slowly gaining some
strength if she is moving a little more & holding her tail off of the ground more.
You are doing a phenomenal job with her, keep at it, she is getting better.

Tracie

 

[Subion]

we got back late last night from the vet because of weather being bad so here’s the update from the vet and a small update on what been going on with Zilla. So it’s going to be a long post and I’m sorry in advance for the read.

Fri Zilla started having trouble walking again and didn’t even want to swim. Sat she took one bite of a cherry and that’s all she would eat and her walking got worse. She did however swim a little in her pool in the hotel room. Yesterday she wouldn’t eat at all not sure if It’s from stress of the trip or just not feeling good.

Anyways I got a lot of info from the vet, I’ll try to go over what I can remember off head and may have to add more later if anything pops up.

So when we got to the vet I showed her the last blood work results they took here and she said she’s surprised they didn’t send us to her sooner. Her hemocrit (think that’s the name) was a 3 and she says that was a cause for emergency concern. That at 12 they are considered anemic. So she did blood work and got different results. Hers showed 15 so she’s getting slightly low on iron. I thought she was going to put her on meds to raise it but I have to double check since what they gave me at the office didn’t have anything for iron. I was so tired at that point though I may have misunderstood her. Besides the trip we were at the vet for about 4 hours for tests.

Her uric acids and protein count is extremely low. I told her she hasn’t had many insects since the last swelling episode we just started her again incase it was her gaulbladder. We were trying to give it time to clear out some. She also felt a lump in her belly that worried me. She asked if she’s been going potty and I told her she goes every day or two in the tub. So she did an ultrasound to check everything. The good news is she didn’t see any follicles or anything like that back from her surgery. The lump all she could see was her internal fat pads as she said looks good and that’s what she felt. She was surprised since Zilla had lost a lot of weight and her fat pads on the outside need some work. So she wants me to start giving her 5ml of crit care a day until she starts getting built back up then we can slow down.

Her ultrasound also revealed her liver is a little large and her gallbladder is still a little misshaped and larger than normal with some stuff in it. But it’s nowhere near as gunked up or as large as it was a few months ago. So she said with her protein low and how her gallbladder is looking she fills I can start giving her bugs once a week without worrying about it swelling up and we’ll see how she does while she’s getting proteins again more regular. She just wants me to switch out and not give the same types of insects week after week.

Her heart looks fantastic, no trace of fluid and beating strong. She said possibly the best she ever saw her heart.

So now of course I have some worrisome news. She took an X-ray and it does show some swelling and possible crystallization around the knees. She said it’s defiantly not gout though. In her bloodwork her calcium is way to high again. Where the vet here showed it was normal range with the labs he got back and gave her some calcium and even had me give her some it needs to come down. So she thinks it’s calcium deposits in the joints at this time. She said the level is suppose to be around 1.4 in bearded dragons and Zillas was I think 2.49. Again I may be off on that number I have it wrote down but not able to check it at the moment.

The other thing is her blood work is showing she had another infection. She’s worried because Zilla seems to keep getting infections that she’s not sure what could be the cause. If it’s something new or if it’s the same one and the antibiotics is not getting rid of it. So she put her on some meds again. If they don’t seem to help or clear the infection up we may have to reevaluate and possibly might have to do surgery to go in and try to clean her out again incase something is hiding inside her. She’s been having issues with infections since her first surgery and with how much a mess she was inside when they did this previous one she said there could be a small infection hiding somewhere in her they didn’t see. So if it would come to surgery they’d have to try to get a better look and with how hard it was last time to just operate and remove the follicles they would have to look longer and try to hope they could find the cause. She says let’s wait and see how she does on these meds and update her before she comes off and we’ll figure out when would be a good time to get more labs to double check on the infection and calcium since I live so far away. I am truly praying the meds clear it up. I don’t know if I could have the heart to put her through another surgery.

She was prescribed cipro and medicam again to try to help her. she’s also staying in the milk thistle and Ursodiol for now. I asked about the serrapeptase and she’s not to familiar with it but looked it up really quick. She said since she’s not been on it for the last few weeks and one of the things it does is help break down proteins to hold off since Zilla hasn’t had much protein. She’s also going to look up and see what all info she can find on it to familiarize herself more with it and see if it would be a benefit for Zilla to take. She also wants me to start giving vitamins to her 2-3 times a week again where the vet here told me not to give any vitamins when I first saw him.

Anyways we’re home now and Zilla is exhausted today so I’m just going to try to get her up for meds and hopefully eat some and get a little sunshine when it quits being cloudy and rainy, the rest of day I’m leaving her sleep. I think she earned it after this trip.

@Drache613 i have a pic of her labs and tests if you’re interested. The X-ray unfortunately doesn’t show the joint issues too well. We couldn’t get a good shot of it with the vet showing me the stuff off her phone.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Brandon!

How is little Zilla doing today?
I am sorry she is having trouble with her back legs still. I have thought about that & I am wondering
if her spinal column or nerves have gotten damaged in all of the egg issues & the two surgeries?
It doesn't make a lot of sense for her not to have use of her back legs if her calcium levels are good.
That is too bad she is on medications again. I hope she doesn't stay on them long. Her uric acid is
low & that can be caused by mineral deficiencies like thiamin & niacin, etc. The critical care should
have adequate nutrients in it for her.
Kelp is rich in iron so you could try some of that for her. It is all natural so you wont overdose her. Or,
blackstrap molasses & regular molasses are rich in iron & minerals too.
I hope you are able to get her into the sunshine to help improve her mood.
Let her get some rest & keep us posted on her!

Tracie

 

[Subion]

Hello Brandon!

How is little Zilla doing today?
I am sorry she is having trouble with her back legs still. I have thought about that & I am wondering
if her spinal column or nerves have gotten damaged in all of the egg issues & the two surgeries?
It doesn't make a lot of sense for her not to have use of her back legs if her calcium levels are good.
That is too bad she is on medications again. I hope she doesn't stay on them long. Her uric acid is
low & that can be caused by mineral deficiencies like thiamin & niacin, etc. The critical care should
have adequate nutrients in it for her.
Kelp is rich in iron so you could try some of that for her. It is all natural so you wont overdose her. Or,
blackstrap molasses & regular molasses are rich in iron & minerals too.
I hope you are able to get her into the sunshine to help improve her mood.
Let her get some rest & keep us posted on her!

Tracie

Hi Tracie,
She can move good when she needs to. Like if she gets to hot when we’re at Theo ark she’ll climb up my shoulder and fight me with all her strength. Her back legs she can walk but sometimes she won’t straighten them out or stand up fully on them it seems. Since she’s lost weight and muscle mass in all her legs the vet thinks it’s where she’s been sick and not eating and having so many of these spells where she gets swelling and weak that it could also be where she’s not as active as needs to be. Especially since she won’t really walk at all when she gets these spells and sometimes they last a long time, around a month. Since she started her meds she has had some swelling in her front paws again and maybe one of her back legs looked a little swollen to today when I got her up top give meds but with how she’d was laying I’m not 100% sure. Seems how these spells happen, she had trouble walking then the swelling hits.

Her uric acid is low because she hasn’t had much protein in the last month or so. The vet here wanted me to remove it incase it was her gaulbladder again until we saw the specialist and had the ultrasound done. In the last month or so she started getting some BSFL 2 weeks before her vet visit with the specialist. First Saturday I gave het 5 then the following day 7. So it defiantly is low from that.

As for the iron the vet doesn’t seemed to concerned with it right now. She said she wants to get the infection treated first and see how it does. I have looked at every store for kelp and all I can find around here is stuff that is in pharmacy pill form. If I try to find some online should I get like a fresh or a powder version. I’ve never felt with kelp before so not sure what’s best. I’ll also look for molasses this weekend just incase I can’t find kelp. I assume just a small drop mixed with water for it since I know it’s thick.

We went to the park yesterday for about 2.5 hours and when she set in the sun she held her head up. When she’s get hot she’d fight me to try to climb in shade like she was feeling better. She’d try to climb on my shoulder when we were just sitting in the car with window open and climb seat belt so I had to move her to other side. But as soon as we were headed home she went all flat like she was exhausted and that’s what she does most the time we are home even if we go outside. She’s just in those spells again with the swelling and leg shaking. That’s usually how she always goes though this when it happens. I’m hoping the meds kick in soon and help. I’m also not sure if her feeling tired is from the meds so it’s hard to tell how she’s truly feeling right now. From what the vet told me also with her calcium being so high it can look like the same symptoms of mbd because her muscles and stuff would be sore and stiff. So I’m hoping that’s is part of it and as each day go by it’ll get better as we get it lowered.

I’m also hoping that the buildup in the joints around the knees will deteriorate since she said it could be caused by high calcium. Only issue is her crit care has a small dose of calcium in it and since the vet wants her back on vitamins, all the vitamins I can find for these guys have calcium in it so i don’t know how long it’ll take to start losing if she’s getting all that.

I do have a question though. With her calcium being high is it better for her to be in the sun and under her lights more or will it drain more if she sleeps without the lights and stuff on her as much? I’m not sure how that actually works so if one is better at getting it out of her system faster I’d rather try that.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Brandon,

How is little Zilla doing?
I am wondering if perhaps she has a parathyroid issue causing irregular release of calcium? It
honestly doesn't make sense that she would have high calcium levels after this long. Are they
doing an ionized calcium reading? The blood serum level isn't always indicative of the overall
levels of calcium. If the body is leaching calcium from the bones, to maintain homeostasis or a
good calcium levels, that can cause higher readings. The ionized calcium test will determine the
stored D3 levels aka 25 Hydroxy levels. I certainly hope she hasn't developed metabolic bone
disease at this point! Keep trying to get her to swim & exercise in her bath if you possibly can.
Have they mentioned that the bones look ok in density?
Keep her lighting cycle the same. If you get her outdoors in the sun, that is fine as well but you
can also keep her under her UVB lights also. Both should equally help, really. She needs it dark
to sleep so definitely don't leave lights on while she sleeps.
Continue with the critical care, for nutrition right now.
Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

 

[Subion]

Hello Brandon,

How is little Zilla doing?
I am wondering if perhaps she has a parathyroid issue causing irregular release of calcium? It
honestly doesn't make sense that she would have high calcium levels after this long. Are they
doing an ionized calcium reading? The blood serum level isn't always indicative of the overall
levels of calcium. If the body is leaching calcium from the bones, to maintain homeostasis or a
good calcium levels, that can cause higher readings. The ionized calcium test will determine the
stored D3 levels aka 25 Hydroxy levels. I certainly hope she hasn't developed metabolic bone
disease at this point! Keep trying to get her to swim & exercise in her bath if you possibly can.
Have they mentioned that the bones look ok in density?
Keep her lighting cycle the same. If you get her outdoors in the sun, that is fine as well but you
can also keep her under her UVB lights also. Both should equally help, really. She needs it dark
to sleep so definitely don't leave lights on while she sleeps.
Continue with the critical care, for nutrition right now.
Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

I’m having a hard time right now telling how she’s doing in all honesty. One day she acts better the next she acts like she’s feeling down again. I don’t know what is how she’s feeling or if a side effect from the meds she’s on. The other day her paw was really swollen and if I held it a certain way it seemed like the swelling would go down after awhile or even if she’d be in the sun and putting pressure on it it would. So I started thinking it’s something with the circulatory system. I have not been able to get it down like that since that day though. Her right paw is extremely swollen and left may be very little in it. It seems like when she first gets up they are swollen a good bit but they go down some after she’s up a bit. She was even starting to lay with her legs behind her like she use to when sleeping. Now she holds it off to the side again instead of moving it downwards beside her body. That’s part of how I know her legs bother her.

A few days after starting the antibiotic her stool returned to normal green color from a darker color and was shaped good even the urate looked closer to natural white where it has been a chalky looking color. The first time it happened I don’t know how she got it out it was so large. Even for the first few days she wanted down to swim soon as she saw water running. What surprised me was one day I tried to give her water and she wouldn’t drink any. Soon as she got in the pool she stared drinking the water like she’s not had liquids in awhile. She hasn’t drunk water out of her bath or pool in a long time. Probably almost going back closer to het first surgery. Then two days ago she was holding herself up more with her right leg only. She ate 2 blueberries and 4ml of crit care for lunch then ate 2ml more crit care before bed. Yesterday she just didn’t feel good at all. When we were at the park she held herself up very little and just wanted to lay most the time. She only took a small piece of apple for lunch and when we went home she was exhausted she acted like. I got her pool out and she didn’t want in it at first. She finally got in and swam a little. She went potty and the urates looked a little chalky again and stool a little darker with some orangish tint. So after she set in water awhile I gave her a little yogurt and let het go to bed. I got her up an hour later and took her back out since it’s getting close to med time and all she wanted to do was climb on my shoulder with the shade and lay with her head down. She wouldn’t even hold it up to look around.

Right now we’re at the park and she is holding her head up a little bit still in a laying mode not using her legs. But at same time it is a little chilly today compared to yesterday. So the weather may be making her lazy.

But to answer your questions her ionized calcium is done in Ohio every 2-3 visits it seems and this last visit is one they did it and told me it was the 2.49 instead of 1.4 it should be. Also every X-ray she has had done including this last one I was told her goes look good and are nice shaped with no irregularities. I was never told anything specifically about the density but I assume that is covered when they said they look good.

This past week she’s outside usually 5-6 hours a day at least, the rest of the time she seems so tired she’s usually asleep and under a blanket to keep warm with no lights on her. Trying to let her rest more while the meds do their thing.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Brandon,

Thanks, I am glad the ionized calcium reading is done, often. That helps a lot. Yes, definitely, if the
bone mass looks good on the x-ray then that shouldn't be an issue.
It is possible her parathyroid gland could have been affected or is dysfunctioning which causes
excess calcium to be released & the levels aren't able to be regulated.
Is she on the antibiotics right now, correct? It
is a good sign she is drinking on her own now. Are her pads on her head looking any better yet?
Poor girl, I am sure that she is tired, with everything she has been through.
Keep trying because she is definitely fighting. We are all pulling for her. I can't believe just how much she's been through. I hope she starts to become more active soon!

Tracie

 

[Lyrebird.Rainwing]

What a strong lil dragon! I hope she pulls through!

 

[Drache613]

Hello Brandon!

I hope Zilla had a good day today. Keep us posted on her!

Tracie

 

[Hatchi]

My girl Zilla has had health problems since her follicle removal last year. I’ve posted on these forms quite a few times and you all have been very helpful. Last month we found out she is getting follicles back and from what I can tell they me be growing fast, they didn’t show up on the scans a month before that.

Anyways the vet had her on some different meds and on the 15th put her on an anti inflammatory/pain killer and and an anti infection med hoping it would help. She had her on a little calcium .02ml a day but took her off since her blood work it was showing high.

Anyways Zilla hasn’t been wanting to eat and she’s very weak in the limbs to where she don’t move and when she does she drags herself not actually walk. I talked to the vet over the phone fri and told her that Zillas eye look sunken to me and she’s sleeping constantly. All of which I feel she had first time they needed to do surgery. (This is a different vet then the original) She told me to give her between 4-8 ml of herbivore crit care a day preferably closer to 8. I’ve been getting around 5-6 a day in her. She fears she’s badly dehydrated and with not wanting to eat losing her nutritions so that’s why she wants me to push it. Anyways I’m suppose to call this week to give an update.

What I was told is if I can get the crit care in her we can possibly look at follicle removal surgery on the 17th. If not or she don’t show improvement we may want to consider putting her to sleep. The only other option is to admit her and let them run a Cath and stuff to feed her a day or 2 before surgery to see if we can strengthen her. I really don’t want to put her through that though. Surgery and forcing her to eat and take meds are and enough.

I really don’t want to rush the decision either to put her down if there is a chance the surgery could save her. Her colors are fine even her beard is normal. It’s just her eyes that make the vet worry. Hopefully someone on here can help me decide if the herbivore crit care is worth trying. How long does it normally take to show results if people have used it before. Just any advice would be really helpful. I don’t want her to be sick or feel bad and hate the surgery would be another week out. Yet I want to have hope. She’s like my baby and I don’t want to throw in the towel.

I should add my mother says her eyes look better to her since starting the herbivore crit care. And she is holding her tail up and head up more. She just is always sleepy. Sometimes after 5 min others 30 she’s ready for bed. I know a lot of that comes from the follicles too.

I also have emailed Tracie her last test results from blood work and X-rays.


Thanks,
Brandon

Definitely try the surgery! You can also buy a red light therapy bulb and let the beardie bask in the light but you have to make sure the bulb is for therapy. One like this: https://a.co/d/0MtyyFV
But never leave the beardie unattended while basking in the red light! It's very hot! And try to give the beardie lots of attention whenever you feel like she needs it!

 

[Subion]

Sorry about the delayed update. I’ve been under the weather this week.

Last few days when it’s been cold and rainy I’ve let Zilla sleep most the day besides getting up for meds and food. Maybe sneak her out for an hour or sun when we had it. During this time I’ve been gently rubbing her arm and paw incase it is a circulation issue in hopes to help her out some. Not sure if it’s been working or just timing but her paw and leg swelling has went down more each day. She is trying to move more on her own when she’s hot. Yesterday she climbed from one shoulder to the other then down on my stomach some to climb back to my shoulder. She’s not limping as much over last few days either.

She has been getting a small amount of bugs every Saturday and luckily it’s been warm out and she seems somewhat excited on those days. We usually go to the pet store and look at some fish for a bit if she’s in the mood then get her super worms or dubia and head to the park and have like a little picnic. Other than that she’s been eating some crit care every day or 2. She also gets occasional fruit as a treat on days she won’t eat much. She has been drank water out of her pool a couple of times now. So she seems like she is getting better again I’m jut not getting my hopes up yet since everytime she has acted better she got the swelling again. Last thing i want to add is she does have her final dose of antibiotic and meloxicam tonight. So we’ll have to see how she does over next few days.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Brandon,

I hope Zilla continues to do better. I know she has been through so much.
So she will be off of the medications now, for awhile? Hopefully she just wont need them anymore.
Is the swelling staying down for her? That is too bad the weather hasn't cooperated very well. If she
starts to move more maybe that will improve her strength. Keep encouraging her, that does really help
a lot. I'm sure it's difficult not to get your hopes up, she has been up & down a lot the last couple of
years.
Continue with the critical care as she needs but in time her natural appetite should start to come back.
I hope you are feeling better!

Tracie

 

[Subion]

Hello Brandon,

I hope Zilla continues to do better. I know she has been through so much.
So she will be off of the medications now, for awhile? Hopefully she just wont need them anymore.
Is the swelling staying down for her? That is too bad the weather hasn't cooperated very well. If she
starts to move more maybe that will improve her strength. Keep encouraging her, that does really help
a lot. I'm sure it's difficult not to get your hopes up, she has been up & down a lot the last couple of
years.
Continue with the critical care as she needs but in time her natural appetite should start to come back.
I hope you are feeling better!

Tracie

She is off the antibiotic and medicam since last Mon. She’s still on the Ursodiol and milk thistle. She has been doing ok for most part. The swelling so far is staying down in her paws and when she gets to hot or wants to fight for whatever reason she’s strong. But sometimes when she tries to move you can see her arms move a bit slow and paws are somewhat shakey at times. Not sure if it’s because of the swelling, calcium buildup or just where she lost muscle mass but I do see it once in awhile. She swims good when she wants. But there are days where she was not wanting to go to sleep at all now she is back to wanting naps and acting like she’s tired at 5 or so. Just when the weather started to get mid to high 80 possibly 90 out.

When she does walk it’s very little and like I said usually only if she gets to hot. She doesn’t seem to be as shakey or limping when she does that at least as far as I can tell. If any it’s very small.

Last couple days has me a bit worried though. When I get her up she’s cold and we head outside and I noticed if I’m holding her her head will shake a little. I notice mainly by the spikes towards back of her head. But i only notice it when I hold her and she first gets up. I don’t know if she’s just too cold, or something else going on. For all I know I might be shaking and causing her to and not realizing it. Will they shake if they are too cold like that? It seems to be only the head as far as I can tell. I’m just worried because she just came off her meds and she’s been getting bugs once a week again also getting herpivite sprinkled on them some and mixed in her slurry once to twice a week and she was off it for a long time. So part of me worried it’s something going on with all the changes again lately.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Brandon,

Zilla looks better, we still need some weight put on her though. Her pads on her head do need to
fill in. Are you giving sweet potatoes & squash for some starches for her? That can help with some
weight gain.
The head shakiness can be calcium issues or a thiamin issue. The herptivite should help with that,
if there are any vitamin or mineral deficiencies, that is at this time. It does have some calcium in it
but that is ok. You don't give any calcium at all, correct? That just seems like such a long time for
her not to have any type of calcium intake, very unusual. If you can take a video, that would be good.
They normally don't shake if they are cold, but, can if they are nervous, or scared, etc. I don't think
that's what is going on with her though.
Can she fully support herself right now, walking, etc?
I noticed her eyes do look alert, which is a good sign. I would like to see more weight gain on her,
so let's work on that right now. Did the vet say how many bugs/insects she can take in, or did he
not mention it?

Keep us posted on her.
Tracie

 

[Subion]

Hello Brandon,

Zilla looks better, we still need some weight put on her though. Her pads on her head do need to
fill in. Are you giving sweet potatoes & squash for some starches for her? That can help with some
weight gain.
The head shakiness can be calcium issues or a thiamin issue. The herptivite should help with that,
if there are any vitamin or mineral deficiencies, that is at this time. It does have some calcium in it
but that is ok. You don't give any calcium at all, correct? That just seems like such a long time for
her not to have any type of calcium intake, very unusual. If you can take a video, that would be good.
They normally don't shake if they are cold, but, can if they are nervous, or scared, etc. I don't think
that's what is going on with her though.
Can she fully support herself right now, walking, etc?
I noticed her eyes do look alert, which is a good sign. I would like to see more weight gain on her,
so let's work on that right now. Did the vet say how many bugs/insects she can take in, or did he
not mention it?

Keep us posted on her.
Tracie

The vet didn’t say exactly how many bugs to give her, just said once a week And to switch out weekly. I’m going to up her to 5 or 6 starting tomorrow to see how she does. Been starting slow to be careful with her gallbladder. Hopefully getting some super worms in her will help out on more weight.

I do give her some squash or sweet potato in her slurry but she only gets them once maybe two times a week. Rest of the time it’s crit care so she gets everything she needs.

The shaking I’m starting to think it’s more just me maybe shaking from nerves and not her. I Havnt noticed it when I don’t hold her. Even when I do hold her it seems like it’s after she first got up so it’s hard to tell and since I’m holding her it’s hard to get a video of it, but I Havnt noticed it last few days at all either way.

When she walks she seems to do fine, she’s climbing on my shoulders better and the little bit she will walk on the floor it seems she’s holding herself up ok. She still has the slow jittery hands though when she just moved her front paws to a different position when she doesn’t try to walk. She’s even been holding herself up more the last two days with her front legs stretched out almost fully.

We’ve been trying to get outside as much as possible and spending 6-7 hours a day out, it’s been in 80s most the week. Today it’s starting to go down to high 70s and next week it’s going to be in 70s with one day hitting a high of 69. So I’m not looking forward to that. Just seems like the last 2 summers she missed a lot of it and wanted her to be exposed to the sun as much as possible this year got messed up by the rain and cold days we had.