LLLReptile":34ittnap said:Hi everyone!
You all much prefer tile; I do not. I feel it is more work to maintain and wipe and sanitize tile (carpet being worse - as it absorbs urine, fecal matter, and easily breeds bacteria on and within its surface). The way I often describe this to customers is to ask them if they'd like to live in a house where everyone pooped on the floor - but the floor is wiped down and cleaned every day. Yes, you can bleach it, and wash it, but I know I would not want to live on the same surface that feces is repeatedly being deposited on, nor would I want my animals to live on it either. For this reason, I much, much prefer a particle bedding not just for beardies, but for all herps in my care.
4GlueStick":11gry2rb said:Very well said LLLReptile, I couldn't agree with you more (and I've ordered a many thing or two from you guys over the years). Thank you for the great selection in supplies!
I certainly agree with most aspects of your recommendations and love referencing some of your other videos.
LLLReptile":11gry2rb said:Hi everyone!
You all much prefer tile; I do not. I feel it is more work to maintain and wipe and sanitize tile (carpet being worse - as it absorbs urine, fecal matter, and easily breeds bacteria on and within its surface). The way I often describe this to customers is to ask them if they'd like to live in a house where everyone pooped on the floor - but the floor is wiped down and cleaned every day. Yes, you can bleach it, and wash it, but I know I would not want to live on the same surface that feces is repeatedly being deposited on, nor would I want my animals to live on it either. For this reason, I much, much prefer a particle bedding not just for beardies, but for all herps in my care.
I still cannot however agree with your argument of loose substrates as there are too many cons (joint stress, impaction, respiratory complications, bacterial infections, etc) to pros (more natural, helps with digging behaviors,etc) with using them when compared to more solid substrates, even with other species of reptiles. Loose substrates harbor oodle amounts of bacteria, so stating that changing the particular areas that they've deposited in is much cleaner than say, removing a paper towel and wiping the area, hosing down and/or placing a repticarpet in the washing machine, or removing the particular tile a dragon has deposited on and soaking and cleaning that tile is not, in my opinion, very sanitary. It may be true that the feces was removed in the area of substrate, but fluid is still left behind and left to harbor, unless of course with each fecal pass or spill of the water bowl or waterfall addition most if not all substrate is removed and sanitized, leaving the reptile owner with more maintenance and financial loss with the repeated purchase of substrate. So I guess I am coming from a more safe and financial standpoint (this being important in our current economy), especially after experiencing my own personal issues with a short term use in loose substrate and a longterm vet bill accumulation of $2k and a few years of diminished bearded dragon quality of life. I am of course only speaking of the topic of loose substrate use with bearded dragons, not all reptiles.
-Glue
Very well thought out response. Always good to see an opposing view point and the explanation behind itLLLReptile":2jvbf4es said:Hi everyone!
I'm the one who made the video, and I'd like to clear up a few things.
First and foremost, the bedding - as I state in the video, everyone has preferences, many prefer tile or carpet, I personally much prefer sani chips. I feel they are much easier to keep clean and in general much more sanitary because you are completely removing any substrate that comes into contact with fecal matter. They do not cause impactions in animals that are housed properly - my 5+ years of experience working with thousands of bearded dragons at the store(s) tells me this, as do many local breeders, including a staff member who's been breeding beardies for the last 10+ years. I'm not just recommending it because it's there, it's my experience with a large sample size of animals that helps me with my recommendations. You all much prefer tile; I do not. I feel it is more work to maintain and wipe and sanitize tile (carpet being worse - as it absorbs urine, fecal matter, and easily breeds bacteria on and within its surface). The way I often describe this to customers is to ask them if they'd like to live in a house where everyone pooped on the floor - but the floor is wiped down and cleaned every day. Yes, you can bleach it, and wash it, but I know I would not want to live on the same surface that feces is repeatedly being deposited on, nor would I want my animals to live on it either. For this reason, I much, much prefer a particle bedding not just for beardies, but for all herps in my care.
The waterfall. Again, this is a matter of personal preference. I have helped keepers with beardies that have issues drinking - and I also state in the video if you are concerned about humidity, only run the waterfall for an hour or so a day. Not only have I used waterfalls in the store with excellent success, especially for younger beardies, but I have several friends and customers who also utilize them and love that their beardies will run right over to the waterfall and drink. As pointed out by other members, with the heat lights and the screen top cage, it is extremely unlikely that the humidity would rise to a level that would cause a problem for the beardies. As I have pointed out on this forum before, many keepers of tropical species of reptiles struggle immensely just to keep humidity between 40 and 60% with just a low wattage heat bulb and a heat pad - adding the kind of heat and low-moisture substrate common for use with beardies is going to keep humidity extremely low. The fact that beardies often need to be soaked to ensure they are getting adequate moisture is one indication that they are actually probably being kept TOO dry, if anything. The staff member who breeds bearded dragons studies herpetological medicine, and his observations in the chronic dehydration common in beardies is one reason so many of us now use and recommend waterfalls.
I disagree about packing the cage with too much stuff, personally. There are large pieces of wood for the beardies to climb, and the person who purchased that setup and took it home raves about how their beardies clamber all over everything in the cage. I often see bland, boring cages with little in them and a bored, fat beardie sitting under the light. Beardies should have the option to climb things and exercise, which can prolong their life and enrich their lives beyond simply sitting in the cage.
Again, as has been pointed out by others, there are many different preferences for caring for beardies. I personally disagree with the advice given on this forum from time to time - for the reasons I've stated.
I create these videos to help answer questions we commonly get asked on our pages, in our stores, and phone calls, and do extensive amounts of community outreach, girlscout tours, boyscout presentations (I will be helping at the local Boy Scout Fair next month, in fact) and the sole reason I post on forums is to help others out. My entire job is community outreach, pretty much, and the reaction we were getting on the videos of responding to the various comments and repeating the same comments over and over again were not beneficial or constructive. If posters would like to add respectful, considerate comments to the videos, we'll leave those up. I believe there are some older comments talking about tile and reptile carpet being preferred which we left up - as they were respectful and simply stating a difference of opinion. Posting absolutes and all caps blasting me and the video are naturally going to be deleted, not just by myself but by the other internet manager.
I spend a lot of time trying to help people - the setup in that video has happily housed two beardies in it since it was made, and from the phone calls, emails, and posts we get, there are many, many people who found the video helpful for their situations. I have extensive experience with reptiles - I personally keep and breed a few dozen species, and help manage our breeding center. While I understand that many of you feel very strongly about beardie care, please consider that I speak from experience with a much, much larger base of reptiles and beardies in general, while many keepers only have a handful of animals. I know the problems and questions I commonly get, and many of my videos are geared towards these commonly asked questions.
So can we agree to disagree, and continue this discussion in a more reasonable tone?
-Jen
LLLReptile":3uw9slbf said:Ah, but loose substrates can and should be replaced at least every couple months, if not more often. How often do people replace tile? Is the tile and carpet being truly sanitized, or just washed/wiped down?
What joint issues are you referring to with loose substrates? I have never heard of joint issues being claimed; I am interested in reading any studies you've seen on the issue. Since I do go through the forums, I get to find a lot of helpful information I share with other employees. I know the staff member who studies herp medicine on the side would LOVE to read an article like that. Share if you have it!
Your situation is a special case; impaction can and does happen in freak accidents (I've seen some rather scary cases of snakes becoming impacted ingesting substrate ), and you can argue about it endlessly....
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