Trouble in paradise

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EllenD

Gray-bearded Member
TO THE OP OF THIS THREAD:

I don't know how your dragon is doing as of now, but I immediately felt that the reason she cannot have a bowel movement without the help of a warm bath is because of her enclosure temperatures and the fact that you were using a stick-on thermometer. Tracie touched on this first thing, as I suspect she spotted this too, but let me explain what I'm talking about...

Any stick-on thermometer can only read "AMBIENT" temperatures, or the temperature of the air around the thermometer. You stated that "the temperature on the basking side is 110 at the top of the enclosure", meaning you had the stick-on thermometer near the top of the "Hot Side" of her enclosure...okay, so first of all, those damn stick-on thermometers are extremely inaccurate, I've tested a few of them myself and I've read of numerous of those round, gauge-like, stick-on thermometers that are usually included in reptile "kits" or sold as being for reptiles being tested for accuracy, and they are all typically off by at least 10 degrees or more, some test as being off by up to 20 or more degrees!!! So lets assume your thermometer is off by 5 degrees, I'm being very conservative just to show you how bad this actually is...so lets assume that the 110 degree temperature you were seeing was always actually 115 degrees...

Here's the major problem and why it is effecting your dragon's bowel movements: First off, that temperature you are reading has nothing to do with his "Basking" temperature, but is rather the "Hot Side Ambient Temperature", meaning it is simply the temperature of the air on the Hot Side of his enclosure...His "Basking Temperature" is actually a measure of the SURFACE TEMPERATURE OF THE MAIN BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM THAT IS CONTAINED WITHIN THE HOT SIDE OF HIS ENCLOSURE, AND SHOULD BE DIRECTLY UNDER THE BASKING LIGHT AND THE UVB TUBE, AND IS WHERE YOUR DRAGON GOES TO BASK AFTER HE EATS, ETC.

There are 3 major temperatures inside your dragon's enclosure that you need to measure with either a proper $10 digital probe thermometer or a more expensive temperature gun, as these two types of thermometer are not only very accurate, but THEY ARE THE ONLY THERMOMETERS YOU CAN USE TO MEASURE THE SURFACE TEMPERATURE OF YOUR DRAGON'S MAIN BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM. So assuming you have already purchased a digital probe thermometer (digital thermometer base with a probe on a wire that has a suction cup attached to it and that you can place directly on the main basking spot/platform or on the glass on each side of the enclosure) you can now get an accurate reading of all 3 major temperatures inside the enclosure:

BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM SURFACE TEMPERATURE: For a baby or juvenile up to a year or so old, this should measure between 105-110 degrees, 110 degrees is the absolute maximum temperature that should ever occur inside the enclosure, any temperature over 110 can be lethal. As dragons get older they tend to like their main basking spot, which is within the Hot Side of the enclosure and should be directly under both the basking light and the UVB tube, so that the dragon gets both lights at the same time while they are basking. Most adult dragons that are a year and a half and older like their main basking spot between 98-103 degrees.

HOT SIDE AMBIENT TEMPERATURE: The air temperature on the Hot Side of the enclosure, which contains and surrounds the main basking spot/platform. This should be between 88-93 degrees max. during the day.

COOL SIDE AMBIENT TEMPERATURE: The aire temperature on the Cool Side of the enclosure, which is the side opposite the Hot Side and the main basking spot/platform. This should be between 75-80 degrees mas. during the day. It's very important that the Cool Side Ambient Temperature not be higher than 80 degrees at any time, as the dragon must always have an area to go to that is considerably cooler than the Hot Side of the enclosure, whenever they want to cool down.

*****So if your Hot Side Ambient Temperature was reading on the stick-on thermometer as being 110 degrees, even if we say that the stick-on thermometer was spot-on accurate and the Hot Side Air Temperature inside the enclosure actually was 110 degrees, not only is this far too hot, obviously, since the recommended Hot Side Ambient Temperature is between 88-93 degrees, this means that the Basking Spot Surface Temperature that is directly under the basking bulb and is constantly absorbing the direct heat from the bulb was even higher than 110 degrees. This is all assuming that the stick-on thermometer was completely accurate, which they never are. Even if your stick-on thermometer was only off by 5 degrees, that means that the Hot Side Ambient Temperature inside the enclosure was continuously at 115 degrees, which is in the lethal temperature range, and his Basking Spot Surface Temperature was at least 120 degrees...*****THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN CAUSING SEVERE DEHYDRATION AND IS THE REASON HE COULD NOT HAVE A BOWEL MOVEMENT WITHOUT BEING IN WARM WATER TO RELAX HIS MUSCLES, AND TO ALLOW HIM TO MOVE HIS BACK LEGS WHILE SWIMMING IN THE WATER, WHICH TENDS TO LOOSEN UP THE FECAL MATTER IN THEIR INTESTINAL TRACTS. HIS POOP WOULD BE EXTREMELY DRY, STICKY, AND HARD, THE URATES WOULD BE HARD AS ROCKS, AND THERE'S NO WAY HE COULD PASS THIS WITHOUT HAVING THE HELP OF EITHER A WARM BATH OR LAXATIVES*****

This is in addition to the issues with your UVB light and the mounting of it, and anything else that was mentioned. I hope that by now you have gotten everything corrected and are using a digital probe thermometer, and you have adjusted the basking light to get the temperatures within the correct ranges, whether by moving the basking light up higher, or by getting a lower wattage bright white basking bulb.

********The last thing I want to explain to you is how to properly use the digital probe thermometer, as most people do not use it correctly and as a result the temperature readings they get are WAY OFF! First off, I recommend checking all 3 major temperatures once weekly, just to be sure that they are staying within the correct temperature ranges. The temperatures inside the enclosure will vary a bit with changes in the weather, and the resulting changes in the temperature of your home, etc. So it's always good to check the Basking Spot Surface Temp, the Hot Side Ambient Temp, and the Cool Side Ambient Temp once a week, just to be sure.

As far as properly using the Digital Probe Thermometer, THE KEY TO GETTING ACCURATE READING EVERY TIME IS TO #1) NEVER TAKE ANY TEMPERATURES INSIDE THE ENCLOSURE UNTIL THE UVB TUBE AND THE BASKING BULB(S) HAVE BEEN TURNED ON FOR AT LEAST 2 HOURS! This will allow the inside of the enclosure to reach the normal temperatures it reaches every day, and most importantly #2) ALWAYS MAKE SURE THAT AFTER YOU PLACE THE PROBE OF THE DIGITAL THERMOMETER ON THE SPOT THAT YOU ARE MEASURING THE TEMPERATURE OF, YOU ALLOW THE PROBE TO SIT ON THE SPOT YOU ARE TAKING THE TEMPERATURE OF FOR AT LEAST 20-30 MINUTES BEFORE YOU READ THE TEMPERATURE!!!!!!!! If you simply place the probe of the digital thermometer on the spot you are taking the temperature of and then immediately read the temperature on the digital thermometer, the probe has not had time to reach the temperature that either the Basking Spot Platform or the Air Inside the Enclosure has reached!!!!!!!! So you should always start by taking the Basking Spot Platform temperature, then you can make adjustments from there forward, and it is much easier than taking one of the Ambient Temps and then trying to adjust from there...So turn on your lights for the day and make sure they are all on for at least 2 hours before you take any temperature readings. After all the daytime lights have been on for at least 2 hours, place the probe of the digital thermometer on the Main Basking Spot, and let the probe sit there on the Main Basking Spot for at least 20-30 minutes, then and only then do you read the temperature. The move the probe so you can take the Hot Side Ambient Temperature, either by attaching the suction cup that is attached to the probe to the Middle of the Glass (half way up from the bottom) on either the front glass panel/front door, or the side glass panel of the Hot Side of the enclosure. You really do not want to put the probe on the floor of the enclosure, because that would be taking the surface temperature of the floor, not the air temperature. After you attach the probe to the glass on the Hot Side of the enclosure, let the probe sit there for at least 20-30 minutes, then read the temperature. Then move the probe over to the opposite Cool Side of the enclosure and attach the suction cup on the probe to the glass panel on that side, and allow the probe to sit there for at least 20-30 minutes, then read the temperature...after taking all 3 enclosure temperatures, then make any adjustments to the basking light(s) that may be necessary.

You should check the enclosure temperatures once a week, but also any time anything changes with the lighting or heating of the enclosure. For example, every 6 months when you replace your UVB tube, you should check the temperatures after allowing the new UVB tube to be turned on for at least 2 hours (*****only a T8 strength UVB tube needs to be replaced every 6 months because that is the point that it stops emitting any UVB light, even though the tube itself is not burnt out and still turns on at 6 months old; if you have a T5 strength UVB tube they must be replaced every 10 months to a year because that is when they stop emitting any UVB light at all; just an FYI).
 

Lizzylove

Member
Original Poster
Dear EllenD,

Thank you so much for all your time writing me back and giving me advise. Yes I switch out the stick thermometer with a digital probe one and yes I agree the temp were totally off. I got the temp in order and it seems that Lizzy is doing much better regarding her issues.
I am just so lost because no matter where I go here every reptile store owner reinsured me that I was doing everything right. I went to 4 different stores here in town. It seems that none of these people should sell those reptiles!!!!!!!
I am so glad I have all this support here.
Again thank you for helping us so greatly!!!!!
 

kingofnobbys

BD.org Sicko
Lizzylove":3a380yiz said:
Dear EllenD,

....

I am just so lost because no matter where I go here every reptile store owner reinsured me that I was doing everything right. I went to 4 different stores here in town. It seems that none of these people should sell those reptiles!!!!!!!

....

Very rare to find petshop staff who even have the foggiest clue about proper reptile care and husbandry, you can never trust anything they say and IMO live reptiles should NEVER be sold by pet shops.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

That is great news to hear that you have gotten the temperatures in check now. How much
off were they, I'm just curious? The temperatures are so important & really do affect their
overall health.
A lot of reptile & or pet stores just don't have it all correct. I'm not really sure where they
get their information from, either.
Is Lizzy eating better also?

Let us know how she is doing.
Tracie
 

Lizzylove

Member
Original Poster
kingofnobbys":u32dy5wi said:
Lizzylove":u32dy5wi said:
Dear EllenD,

....

I am just so lost because no matter where I go here every reptile store owner reinsured me that I was doing everything right. I went to 4 different stores here in town. It seems that none of these people should sell those reptiles!!!!!!!

....

Very rare to find petshop staff who even have the foggiest clue about proper reptile care and husbandry, you can never trust anything they say and IMO live reptiles should NEVER be sold by pet shops.

We have several "reptile" stores in town and even they give out wrong information. Very scary.
Lizzy is doing much better thanks to all of you!!!!!
 
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