Tremors?

[Lovinonmybell]

Hi , I'm new to all this so sorry if this is dumb.

We got two bearded dragons "for the kids".. one we got about a little more then a week ago from petco, she's about 7 1/2 inches long. The guy that was there at the time couldn't give us an actual age range but I know she's under a year, he also wasn't able to give us a straight answer on her gender so of course when I went home I googled how to figure that out and came to the conclusion that it's a girl. Anyway.. I havent really been able to get her to drink with spraying her down, and so I saw a video and have read about people giving them baths.. so I give her a bath once every day and use a medicine dropper to put it on her back and her Head and she drinks from the medicine dropper. Yesterday when I was bathing her I stepped about for a couple minutes (after she had already been in for about 5), no more then 5 minutes I was gone and came back to take her out and put her back under her lights like I always do and as I was picking her up she had tremors. It wasn't anything violent and didn't last more then a couple of seconds.. 3 maybe? It was like she started vibrating. I've never read of this happening? Did the water get to cold? She also has been staying up close to the top of her tank where the lights can't reach her for about.. 3 days. I put her back on her basking spot and she will stay for awhile but she will retreat back up there (we have stick on fake plants).. she doesn't use the hide we bought her so I'm wondering if that's what she's using? I have been dusting her crickets with calc D3 every day.. we had a hard time getting her to eat for the first couple days we had her but now she seems to have an appetite can
And she doesn't have direaha so.. if she wasn't scared, and she wasn't cold (which as far as I can tell they just get darker when there cold) ... Is it early signs of MBD? I also noticed her tail is brighter then her body and her head is looking a bit dry, I've never seen a dragon she'd so I'm wondering if she's about to start and if that's why she's acting odd? We have an appointment scheduled for next Tuesday for both baby's to get their check ups and poop checked. Any advice is much appreciated. Can't figure out how to put a picture..

 

[EllenD]

No dumb questions here, so please ask anything!

First of all, NEVER EVER LEAVE THEM UNATTENDED IN A BATH!!! THEY CAN EASILY ASPIRATE THE WATER AND/OR DROWN!!! It's likely she aspirated a bit of water into her lungs, it's possible the water got too cold, but please don ever do that again, I'd hate to see the tragedy that is probable happen. They often nod off when they're in warm water, so you need to ALWAYS be there to keep their heads above the water!

They don't often drink from the bath or from a bowl, you can do what you're doing with the eyedropper, but they should get all the water they need from their 2-3 live insect feedings per day. Baths aren't a necessity for bearded dragons unless they get dirty, they are shedding, or they are impacted. Some enjoy baths, so if yours do enjoy soaking in warm water then by all means let them have a bath a couple of times a week, but never leave them unattended, never have the water above their shoulders, and never leave them in long enough for the water to become that cold, 15-20 minutes is long enough.

If you just bought her from Petco a week ago and she's only 7 or so inches long, she is likely only a baby, 1-2 months old! Petco and PetSmart get new hatchlings that are usually between 5-7 inches long and a month or so old, so she is a very young baby, so MBD isn't likely at all, as she hasn't been alive long enough to develop it. That being said, from birth to a year old is their growth period, and it's extremely important that they get adequate and proper UVB lighting, basking lighting, cool side, hot side, and basking spot temperatures, and calcium, D3, and multivitamin supplementation. It's also the time they should be eating a huge amount of live insects as their staple foods for growth, like crickets, roaches, Phoenix worms, or silkworms that are no larger than the space between their eyes. Ideally they will get at least 2 (3 is much better) 10 minute unlimited live insect feeding sessions, where they are allowed to eat as many appropriately sized staple insects as they want to in the 10 minutes. For , I have a 2 month old male leatherback that is about the size of your baby girl, and she eats 15-20 small crickets in the morning session, 15-20 small crickets in the afternoon session, and 10-15 small crickets in the early evening session, do she usually eats between 45-60 small crickets a day. For the first year you should dust their feeders in calcium 4-5 times a week and a Multivitamin powder 2-3 times a week. You should allow their UVB lighting and basking lighting to be on for at least 1-2 hours before feeding them and after feeding them for proper digestion and absorption of nutrients. You should offer fresh greens every day, and if you have a beardie under 10 months to a year that eats them it's a bonus, they will typically start eating greens as their staple food instead of insects at around a year or so old, so you have a ways to go.

If you could, please snap some photos of their enclosures and set-ups (I hope they are in separate enclosures, if not you need to separate them ASAP, they are solitary animals), and please list what UVB lights you use and what basking bulb you use (brand, model, wattage, size, and type, meaning long tube, coil, or compact bulbs), and what their temperatures are in their cool side, hot side, and basking spot, and what you're using to read the temperatures. It's much better to work all these things out now when they are very young as to prevent MBD, impactions, etc. Proper and adequate amount of UVB lighting along with those 3 temperature readings dictate pretty much everything to do with their body working properly.

 

[AHBD]

Hi there....I've raised many clutches of babies over a 20 year period so I have seen exactly what you're mentioning. Sometimes they " freeze " and shake for a few seconds when picked up, it's like they feel unsteady and they have a tiny flailing session. They can do that once in a while even up to adulthood. It has nothing to do with the water or the temp.

As for MBD in babies, they can quickly develop calcium deficiency + MBD at that age, from hatchling size to 2 month old size is 4" -4.5" to about 7" and there is a lot of bone development during that time so MBD can set in if not enough calcium is available. Some babies develop deformed front legs and walk in a gait known as the army crawl. But again, the tremors your baby had were not from MBD unless they are frequent and accompanied by other symptoms.

As far as hydration, the syringe/dropper method on the snout is great for babies who need more hydration when they're young. Feeding live bugs 2-3X a day as mentioned is good for a growing baby, [ 30 -60 is enough ] but babies can and do eat greens when they are offered these from the time they hatch. All my babies ate greens from 2 weeks on. You can try this method....shred the greens very finely, then drop them in near the baby like confetti. The movement often attracts the babies and they may go for the greens. If more breeders offered greens they would have babies eating greens along with the bugs.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Insufficient exposure to UVA can also cause "shivers" that don't last long when the beardie has not had enough UVA for a month ( I saw this with Rex --- I had forgotten when the old UV light had been installed and turned out this seems to have been the cause ) --- installed brand new 26W UVB200 and within a few weeks no more "shivers".
I expect this can become more serious much faster with very young beardies who have a naturally higher metabolic rate than adults do.

If the person who sold them to you is so vague or even evasive on their age , it's likely they have never been fed properly, supplemented with calcium or reptile vits, and never had adequate heat or UVA or UVB.

Bathing > for bearded dragons this is not necessary unless
<< it's soiled itself'
<< it's very hot
<< it's impacted - a bath with tummy rubbing can help
<< it's injured (open wounds) that need soaking in dilute betadiene.
Some beardies enjoy baths , brighten up even swim , many a really stressed by the experience. If the beardie enjoys his bath - endulge him, if not , it's not worth the stress.
Some beardies will drink the bathwater, in the bath the ONLY way bathing hydrates a lizard is if it drinks the water.

To help us diagnose their needs and to help us help you to help them thrive (wow .... talk about lots of help LOL ) please answer the following questions as thoroughly and accurately as you can .

A common mistake is cohabitation (if sharing tank or can see another beardie) , even if he can see another beardie , or a snake or very large lizard ?
Are there other pets (cats, dogs ) in the household ?

And details of your feeding schedule and other husbandry aspects .

Might be a very easy fix .

Photos of the tank and showing substrate and lighting and of the beardies will help too. Use XIMG button to upload photos from your computer.

How heavy are each of the beardies ?
...... recommend weighing them regularly (weekly say)?

Can you give us a good rundown on the setup and schedules (light and feeding) :
Basking light
........ is it a coloured globe ? (BAD)
........ what is it's wattage ?
........ how far from the basking spot ?

TEMPERATURES ?
>>> daytime
.......warm zone
.......basking spot
...... how are you measuring your temperatures ?
TOO COLD = SLEEPY DRAGON
>>> overnight minimum viv temperatures ?

UVA AND UVB ADEQUATE ?
>>> is the uv rated AT LEAST 10%UVB ?
>>> is it a COMPACT (curly globe & WATTAGE ?
>>> or a T8 tube ?
>>> or a T5 tube ?
>>> or an MVB ?
VERY IMPORTANT : what is the brand ?
(not all UVB compacts and tubes are created equal or as well , many shops sell their own brand (Zilla, All Living Things, Reptile-One, Nat Geo , Natural Selections (in green boxes) which are cheap Chinese clones made very cheaply using very poor quality quartz glass and cheap phosphors ==> very poor UV spectrum produced incl UVC band and bad parts of the UVB band)

>>> also is it covered (in a domestic fluorescent light fitting )? == BAD
>>> also is it sitting ontop a mesh top ? == BAD
>>> how far from basking spot ?
too far and the UVA and UVB WILL BE TOO DILUTE.
UVA FLUX TOO LOW where dragon is ==> a very lethargic dragon w/ a very poor apetite just in the short term , and neurological problems if this persists , not to mention MVB if UVB flux too low long enough with inadequate metabolisation of dietary calcium or inadequate intake out calcium

TANK
>>> size (L x W x H) and construction , photos of the setup are often helpful .

SUBSTRATE ?
>>> is it sand ? == BAD AND IF CALCISAND this is EXTREMELY BAD/LETHAL when ingested
>>> is it particulate ? == BAD

SHARING TANK ? == BAD

TOO SHORT A PHOTOPERIOD (lights are not kept on long enough each day , will make beardie think it is winter , recommend at least 14 HRS PER DAY)

FEEDING SCHEDULE (I recommend at least 2 hrs lights/heat on before first live feed and after last feed of the day)
>>> when are you offering live feeder insects ? what are they ? how big are they ?
>>> when are you offering greens and other veg ? what are you offering ?
good guide is here : http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutritionframeset.html

 

[Mysty]

Agreed. Do not leave a dragon unattended in the bath. Also try and get calcum without d3. D3 toxicity can sometimes present with tremors. You can use pure calcium daily and multivit with d3 twice a week. With the correct lighting that is enough.

 

[Lovinonmybell]

Okay so we have three lights.
One uvb light
One basking light
One warm light for the cage for at night time that let's out no light

We use repti carpet, have two hides, some fake plants up on the side for decoration our girl likes to go up there and fall asleep.

I've been turning the lights on at 7:30-8Am. And turn them off around 10/10:30Pm. Some nights I don't need to turn the non light heater on, but some nights I do need to because it can get to the 60's.

During the day time temps don't usually go over 105-110 on HOT days here (we have no AC just a fan) and the cool side of the tank will be in the low 80's. Hot days it's high 80's.

I have a digital thermometer inside the tank, we do have the stick on ones but learned on the first day that their basically worthless, I also have a heat gun to that we ordered from Amazon.

Crickets, tiny meal worms, and tiny super worms are all fed with this food we got from petco the other day, it's green and smells like fish food. I also throw in some carrots for them as well, meal worms and super worms aren't an everyday thing usually just a treat or when I'm trying hard for my lizards to eat salad.

I feed them dusted crickets everyday with the calc. D3, after reading your guys comments I'm going to go to the store and grab some that aren't with D3. What multivitamins? And where can I get them? I asked at Petco and was told the D3 was the multivitamin... ?
I give crickets 3 x a day, basically just keep putting them in till I see there definitely done and then I end up taking the ones they don't eat out because I'm scared their going to bite the dragons.
I also always leave salad in there at all times, and a little water dish which I don't even know why I bother ?

Tank is 40 gallon. The whole reason we got another one is because I was worried it was to big for her ?

Today we are going to bring in some poop samples to the vet so we can have the results for when we go on Tuesday.

My girl only did the tremor thing one other time, the next morning when I picked her up but it was barely brief, so quick I didn't even get a chance to count.

I will not leave them in the bath anymore, after this Im not even sure I want to give them baths but when I do I won't even leave them unattended. I have the spray bottle so I'll do that... At least how many times a day? 1? It seems like an awfully little amount but if their getting their water from their bugs I guess its not that bad.

They are currently cohabitating. I was told it was bad when they get bigger ? again advice from petco.. now on the hunt for another tank. I haven't noticed them fighting, or even paying attention to one another really, but still on the lookout for a tank because better safe then sorry.

SO SORRY IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO REPLY GUYS. our power went off and my phone died, I covered the tank for the most part (I left a little section open for air ventilation) and put a blankey in their with them and got them nice and cozy. But the tank never went under the high 80s. But the reason I was worried was because they had just hate when the power went off maybe 25 minutes and the power was gone?
Their was a power line that came down and started a fire right next to our house basically only a couple houses from us. Thank goodness that was fixed.

Thank you for all your advice.. hopefully I'm not screwed them up to bad

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Everything looks pretty good. Which UVB did you get, that compact/coil light from Reptisun 10?
I hate to say but you will need to take that one back.....& get the long fluorescent tube instead. The compact/coil light has too much of a UVB spike, some of which is close to UVB frequency & not enough good quality UVB. They can cause eye injury at times too.
The temperatures sound good. I'm glad you are using a digital probe because those round stick ons are not accurate.
Is the insect food a gutload essentially?
You can look for Herptivite multivitamin powder which uses Beta carotene instead of synthetic vitamin A so there is less likelihood of toxicity.
You don't really need to mist them more than once or so a day but do that outside of their tank so it doesn't increase the humidity too much.
That's a good idea, to start planning on separating them, there are just so many risks involved housing together especially if they are both males.
Sorry to hear about the power going out & the fire on the block. I hope it's all back to normal now!

Let us know how they are doing.
Tracie

 

[kingofnobbys]

In a very small viv such as your's , this will be OK IF beardies can get with 6 inches of the globe, I recommend exchanging it for a 26W UVB200 , one for each beardie (you'll need to double up on the basking and uv lighting when you separate the pair , it needs to mounted under the lid and horizontally , in one of these http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/compact_top.php , and they will need to be able bask about 8-10inches from the 26W UVB200s in nanohoods to get adequate UVA and UVB.

Okay so we have three lights.
One uvb light
One basking light
One warm light for the cage for at night time that let's out no light

We use repti carpet, have two hides, some fake plants up on the side for decoration our girl likes to go up there and fall asleep.

I've been turning the lights on at 7:30-8Am. And turn them off around 10/10:30Pm. Some nights I don't need to turn the non light heater on, but some nights I do need to because it can get to the 60's.

During the day time temps don't usually go over 105-110 on HOT days here (we have no AC just a fan) and the cool side of the tank will be in the low 80's. Hot days it's high 80's.

I have a digital thermometer inside the tank, we do have the stick on ones but learned on the first day that their basically worthless, I also have a heat gun to that we ordered from Amazon.

Crickets, tiny meal worms, and tiny super worms are all fed with this food we got from petco the other day, it's green and smells like fish food. I also throw in some carrots for them as well, meal worms and super worms aren't an everyday thing usually just a treat or when I'm trying hard for my lizards to eat salad.

I feed them dusted crickets everyday with the calc. D3, after reading your guys comments I'm going to go to the store and grab some that aren't with D3. What multivitamins? And where can I get them? I asked at Petco and was told the D3 was the multivitamin... ?
I give crickets 3 x a day, basically just keep putting them in till I see there definitely done and then I end up taking the ones they don't eat out because I'm scared their going to bite the dragons.
I also always leave salad in there at all times, and a little water dish which I don't even know why I bother ?

Tank is 40 gallon. The whole reason we got another one is because I was worried it was to big for her ?

Today we are going to bring in some poop samples to the vet so we can have the results for when we go on Tuesday.

My girl only did the tremor thing one other time, the next morning when I picked her up but it was barely brief, so quick I didn't even get a chance to count.

I will not leave them in the bath anymore, after this Im not even sure I want to give them baths but when I do I won't even leave them unattended. I have the spray bottle so I'll do that... At least how many times a day? 1? It seems like an awfully little amount but if their getting their water from their bugs I guess its not that bad.

They are currently cohabitating. I was told it was bad when they get bigger ? again advice from petco.. now on the hunt for another tank. I haven't noticed them fighting, or even paying attention to one another really, but still on the lookout for a tank because better safe then sorry.
<<<< this might inspire you ... viewtopic.php?f=34&t=233480
. is very cheap way of housing 2 or more hatchlngs/juvies (SEPARATELY) in plastic tubs/totes.


SO SORRY IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO REPLY GUYS. our power went off and my phone died, I covered the tank for the most part (I left a little section open for air ventilation) and put a blankey in their with them and got them nice and cozy. But the tank never went under the high 80s. But the reason I was worried was because they had just hate when the power went off maybe 25 minutes and the power was gone?
Their was a power line that came down and started a fire right next to our house basically only a couple houses from us. Thank goodness that was fixed.

Thank you for all your advice.. hopefully I'm not screwed them up to bad

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Let us know how they are doing! I hope their appetites pick up as well.

Tracie

 

[Lovinonmybell]

I have another questions.

Okay so yesterday I noticed her tail color is different from her body color, it's brighter then her body. She hasnt been eating to much and she hasn't been to crazy about me holding her either but she's still pooping so I think that's a good sign. She we ended up taking the plants away because the other beardie she shares her Viv with trys to eat them..

Could her strange behavior be because she's about to shed? She's still eating.. just not as much. She isn't in the basking light all the time but if I put her there she will stay and crawl off when she gets to hot.
Tonight I noticed her doing this strange thing where she is trying to puff out her beard, and then opens her mouth and then closes it and and then does it again? It was only momentarily and only happened when she was under her light.
**I also ran the poop samples to the vet and they came back positive for parasites, so I've been cleaning out their cage every day with Clorox wipes and then spraying it with this lavender natural cleaner because I'm paranoid the smell or the left over chemical or smell will hurt them.

Also,
Ive noticed the littlest one waves it's arm at her? I think it's a form of submission correct? She hasn't seemed to notice this little guy, unless the weird beard open mouth thing is a type of threat..? They haven't even really touched each other.

Thank you for all your help!

 

[Lovinonmybell]

This is a better example. Her tale is very yellow, and her body is a duller color. Only there though. I've noticed the top of her head looking a bit dry as well, but nothing has flaked so far.

 

[AHBD]

The color difference is just because the baby is shedding. See in this pic of one of mine how different they can look .....it's perfectly normal.
https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/29897/full

Puffing + stretching the beard helps them to loosen shedding skin in that area, also normal.

As for the Clorox + lavendar wipes, do not use either !!! These fumes can overwhelm + cause serious illness. Water with a bit of red wine vinegar [ red wine vinegar is much stronger than bleach but is non toxic ] and a follow up wipe of a clean wet paper towel will kill the germs. Other than that, just a paper towel with a bit of soapy water and rinsed the same way [ clean wet paper towel ] is safest. Some people here use F-10 veterinary wipes + spray.

What exact parasites do your babies have ? It's best to wait for about a month for the new dragons to settle in because stress from being in a new home can cause the parasite count to go higher for a short time, then it falls to a more harmless level. Be aware that treating a new + small baby can do as much or more damage than the parasites. Some dragons do O.K on the meds. , others stop eating and can go downhill quickly even when given probiotics.

And a quick temporary home for a baby can be made easily from a plastic tote. If you don't have other animals in the house you don't even need a lid, just rig the lights across the top. Otherwise, cut a few holes in the lid to set the light over. These are big enough to house a baby until he's 13-14" long. I raised all my babies in these. This pic shows the inside with climbing branches . The branches are from outside, you can collect them [ just nothing with sap ] and pop them in a preheated 250 oven for an hour to kill any potential pests. [ Which I've never seen a single bug come off of anything I got from outside ]
https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/29895/full

 

[kingofnobbys]

The color difference is just because the baby is shedding. See in this pic of one of mine how different they can look .....it's perfectly normal.
https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/29897/full

Puffing + stretching the beard helps them to loosen shedding skin in that area, also normal.

As for the Clorox + lavendar wipes, do not use either !!! These fumes can overwhelm + cause serious illness. Water with a bit of red wine vinegar [ red wine vinegar is much stronger than bleach but is non toxic ] and a follow up wipe of a clean wet paper towel will kill the germs. Other than that, just a paper towel with a bit of soapy water and rinsed the same way [ clean wet paper towel ] is safest. Some people here use F-10 veterinary wipes + spray.
<<<< Yep , most keepers and vets here (Australia) , sware by F10 spray and handwipes. Is incredibly powerful at killing germs and paracites on surfaces of all kinds.
A small bottle of F10sc goes a very long way, if you only have one pet reptile , it will literally last years as you are using it in very dilute form - maybe 2.5ml in 1000ml.
I've been using it for years.

What exact parasites do your babies have ? It's best to wait for about a month for the new dragons to settle in because stress from being in a new home can cause the parasite count to go higher for a short time, then it falls to a more harmless level. Be aware that treating a new + small baby can do as much or more damage than the parasites. Some dragons do O.K on the meds. , others stop eating and can go downhill quickly even when given probiotics.

And a quick temporary home for a baby can be made easily from a plastic tote. If you don't have other animals in the house you don't even need a lid, just rig the lights across the top. Otherwise, cut a few holes in the lid to set the light over. These are big enough to house a baby until he's 13-14" long. I raised all my babies in these. This pic shows the inside with climbing branches . The branches are from outside, you can collect them [ just nothing with sap ] and pop them in a preheated 250 oven for an hour to kill any potential pests. [ Which I've never seen a single bug come off of anything I got from outside ]
https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/29895/full

 

[Lovinonmybell]

We aren't sure yet, I was just told their feces samples came back positive for parasites, but they also told us they aren't comfortable treating them until their seen on Tuesday. They have normal poops to, nothing runny

Shoot! I didn't know that you couldn't use that stuff.. the receptionist said to use a Clorox solution with it watered down with water. They didn't even offer me anything special to use in their cage but we were talking by phone so maybe that's why?

I did have them separated but since I don't have two of everything I just sat the temp home with out a roof inside the Viv but it was vary cramped looking and I don't think the one inside the temp home was getting close enough to the uvb or basking light. He wasn't very happy either. Do you think the signs like arm waving are okay? Or will they fix. I only think the newest addition is a boy, I haven't been able to check because hes still pretty tiny and he doesn't really like me like my girl does, but we are working on that ?

And thank you so much for answering my question about her shedding! I haven't really seen any other pictures like hers alot of the pictures posted other beardies skin thats shedding turns white, but I'm assuming that's farther along in the process

 

[Lovinonmybell]

She is doing the mouth open thing alot more , I think I saw a cough, luckily I'm able to get an emergency appt right now with my vet. I'll update when I can! Scared.