Toys for Beardies?

[Renne]

well - I go by my vet's advice, which is that beardies are comfortable when you are too. I have a basking spot, and an infrared light on throughout the day and night, but other than that he has been fine. My room never is generally around 68-72 degrees, and he has his basking spot when he wants it... But in general he is very active, leaves and returns to his cage independently throughout the day (while i'm watching cuz im paranoid), plays jumping around in circles in his cage, loves climbing the walls, and he's pooping nearly every other day (i keep it on a calender, just to be certain). I've had him in a bird cage for about a year, and before this was a big dog cage (both covered in screen to keep bugs out).

Honestly, both of these have worked better than the aquariums. When he was in 2 different size tanks (one on the smaller size, the second the size of a dresser), he was lethargic, ate rarely, and pooped even more rarely. I know the research says they need high temps all the time, my vet says he sees more fried than frozen dragons so not to worry. He used to always wall-walk too, which always made me nervous, but now that he's in the bird cage, he climbs up and down, sideways and upside down on his walls - I think thats why they wall-walk, to try to climb. He still wall walks on the walls of my room haha, and he knows the spots I've hung up chicken wire so he can climb. I think thats the best part of this cage for him, he's active and entertained cuz he has places to climb high, and to squish into and inbetween cramped placed.

In addition, his poop was clean of parasites and illnesses last checkup. I give him baths very frequently (because I like the company) to keep him hydrated and because he likes it (even though he used to hate it), so maybe that is another reason for his health and stuff. I don't know,but I must say, I love his cage, he really does seem to love his cage (watching him play right now).

Not trying to step on anyone's toes or highjack this thread but the fact that you use a birdcage for your beardie has really been bothering me all afternoon.. I know that you have taken the advice of your vet but you have to consider that maybe all vets don't specialize in reptiles or bearded dragons and may not be all that knowledgeable about the care that is required to help them live a happy healthy life. There are a few things that concern me more than others #1 being you can't control or monitor temps correctly with an open cage like that #2 you can't properly maintain or monitor humidity levels in something like that and #3 being the amount of space the poor thing has to move around. I understand that you have many things for him to climb on but the most important thing is floor space and from the pics I can see thats very limited..And I also understand that you let him go in and out of his cage as he pleases under your supervision but they also need 12-14 hours a day of UV and basking... I can't see how your beardie would be able to properly digest anything in those conditions. The way a wild bearded dragon lives and survives in Australia differs greatly from the one in captivity would. You mentioned the low temps that are in the desert and that is true but they also burrow under ground to maintain their temps.. You also have to remember that the wild beardies only have a life span of 3-5 years compared to the 7-10 years in captivity. Once again I'm not trying to offend you or step on your toes I just wish you would rethink your enclosure idea.

Not gonna lie but I'm with you on that.
If she wants more stuff for him to climb on there are cages for that but they also have a lot of floor space.

 

[kaitquestions]

Hi ashleigh - i welcome any questions you have about my enclosure, I had many questions for my vet as well.

Well, to start, I chose my vet as wisely as I could. He is one of the top reptile vets in the Boston area. Here is his websitehttp://www.wildlife-education-center.com/odd-pet-ve/ from the New England Wildlife Center (cool place, check it out). He has been featured in Discover Magazine, The Boston Globe Magazine, and the Today Show, was awarded “Best of Boston 2004” for exotic animal care by Boston Magazine. He also has a pet radio show at http://www.markiac.addr.com/PET_LIFE_RADIO/gregory_mertz.html so there - you can get to know my vet also. He has spent most of his career specializing in reptiles, and has worked with beardies. I have learned many things from him that are contrary to much of the research I have done on websites, in books, and on forums like this.

I guess I'll just address your post according to your concerns.
1.) you can't control or monitor temps correctly with an open cage like that 2.) you can't properly maintain or monitor humidity levels in something like that 4.) they need 12-14 hours a day of UV and basking... I can't see how your beardie would be able to properly digest anything in those conditions.

Why not? Borris has a basking spot that gets no hotter than 95 degrees throughout the day. The rest of the cage stays relatively close to 72 degrees (according to measurements I took today). I have 2 probe thermometers and they regulate temperature just fine. As for the UV - he is under a 10.0 Reptisun lamp from 7am-8pm... plenty of time for UV... About the humidity - Beardies do not require humidity - (see water and food http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/GeneralCare.html) Even according to this forum ([/url]http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/caresheet/[/url]) humidity should be allowed to escape. So.. I'm not sure why this is your concern but yeah. It doesn't seem to be a bother to him.

I posted this information because it is different from the majority of information out there, and the changes I have made have been very helpful for my Beardie. When I first got him, I had him in a text book enclosure. He was in a 40 gallon aquarium with a basking spot upwards of 98-100 degrees, and the cage had only a screen top. I was in a constant panic, posting on this forum because he wasn't pooping or eating regularly, his poop was watery when it did happen, and was lethargic and constantly basking with his mouth open. He always seemed sick, not very active, and not very happy. That was my first visit to Dr. Mertz, and he told me he sees far more "fried dragons than frozen ones". He told me the majority of sick dragons he sees are fried! So, slightly cautiously, I began to reduce Borris' cage temps, and eventually tried out this bird cage.

Since that time, Borris eats regularly, has poops that actually look like logs - and have been free of parasites according to his most recent appointment, and has been behaving in a manner that is active, receptive, and alert. So, in response to your statement "I can't see how your beardie would be able to properly digest anything in those conditions.", well he is, and I can show you pictures or videos if you really can't believe it. He is digesting more efficiently, and pooping regularly (5 days a week, if not every day). He seems better able to self-regulate his temperature, by moving closer or farther from the basking spots. And he does so - by himself - and poops every morning. Borris does take a lot of baths - which I am sure aids in both digestion and hydration. However, he does not require a bath prior to every poop, and when he does poop, the white is white and the brown is undecipherable.

3.) being the amount of space the poor thing has to move around. I understand that you have many things for him to climb on but the most important thing is floor space and from the pics I can see thats very limited..

I think the view from the pictures is limited. I made sure to ask my doc about his enclosure when I changed things. He told me it was not a problem as long as he has plenty of room to climb - which he does on every wall of the cage! Here are the actual dimensions of the cage you see.
H = 36" (3 feet)
L = 24" (2 feet)
D = 24" (2 feet)
So this is equivalent to 12 cubic feet, or 89 gallons. This is well above the recommended 55 gal tank - And he does run, he climbs, he has become more active, more strong, and more hungry ever since he began living in this cage.

So - this is all my responses to your questions. I understand you weren't trying to offend, and I do welcome the questions, however I don't think you can knock something you have never tried. This is a new suggestion I have for people to try - a bird cage would make a great outdoor enclosure for your beardie to get some natural light in, while staying protected from dangerous bugs. Additionally, I have seen a great deal of benefit in my beardies health (regular eating and pooping) and activity level by allowing him to live in this cage all year. He really enjoys climbing up and down the walls of the cage, climbing around and through the rocks, and occasionally looking at himself in the mirror. If I begin to see changes that are negative - I will be the first to tell people not to follow my example, but a year into this new cage, he is healthier than ever.

I hope I have settled your concerns - and assured you I have done my research, and this is not a matter of convenience or laziness. I do care a great deal about my dragon, and have sought a great deal of information from vets, websites, and texts. My findings do differ from the majority of research on many websites, and this is what I wanted to share. Next time, try not to so quickly judge something you have little to no experience with - I do welcome questions because I was concerned also when speaking with my vet.

Please reply here or email/personal message me with any additional questions/requests.
k8

 

[thegreybush]

He seems better able to self-regulate his temperature, by moving closer or farther from the basking spots. And he does so - by himself

I want to give you some support here on this topic. I had the same eyebrow raising response when I read this but I usually do this out of curiosity not because I'm the know all tell all on reptile care and maintenance. My experience with reptiles (not just beardies) has taught me that this is absolutely an accurate statement. Most reptiles can and will move themselves closer or further from a heat source to self regulate their temperatures. That's why its actually better for a reptile to have different "levels" in their basking area giving the option to sit closer or further away as needed. Great evidence for this is found when I take my beardies out of a bath and set them in their cages. They will 9 times out of 10 go and flatten out directly in the lamp beam where it gets the hottest to warm back up (cold trip from bath tub to tank, we've all stepped out of a shower!), yet during normal basking I will more often see them sitting off to the side of that direct light spot or up higher or underneath of it, where ever it best suits them for the time being.

I understand that you have many things for him to climb on but the most important thing is floor space and from the pics I can see that's very limited.

The need for floor space is relative to the need to explore the world around him/her. Beardies are quizzical and like to move around. If I pictured the optimum bearded dragon enclosure I'd just throw a screened enclosure around a big rock with bushes around it and have a door for access so the beardie could explore safely in the house. I've been to enough deserts around the world to know that lizards don't hang out on the open floor of the desert. They stick to rocks or bushes where they can make a quick escape. So if the beardie is getting to come out and run around at least a few times a week I can't see him being unhappy in this bird cage.

I have seen a great deal of benefit in my beardies health (regular eating and pooping) and activity level by allowing him to live in this cage all year.

Really, what else needs to be said about the topic? Most of what happens in our/their bodies can be found out in the digestive system. Ask your doctor

 

[Slave2Scarlett]

Kait-
Once again let me say I was in no way trying to step on any toes or offend you in any kind of way. I was not being quick to judge I was just going by all the information that I have learned from simply being apart of this forum and research that I have done on my own and just simply didn't understand how or if you could regulate temps in an open enclosure like that as I was informed that you could not. Many people have so many issues with trying to regulate temps and get them high enough in a simple glass viv and I couldn't see how it could be done in an open cage but I do stand corrected it can be done. As far as the humidity goes I was referring to being able to control humidity in something like that to ensure they were low enough. I commend you for the fact that you can control those things with an open viv. I am in now way an expert not do I claim to be. I too have done endless hours of research and read many care sheets to ensure the health and wellbeing of my beardie. I guess I almost find it insulting to the "experts" out there who have done much research and prepared all of these care sheets and guidelines of what to do and what not to do for us to follow so that we can properly care for our beardies and not to mention the hours of research and preparation and building that many of us (including yourself I'm sure of) have done and for someone to come in and say well I just use a bird cage with some wire around it. It just seems as though if it were that easy then all of the research, hours of preparation, care sheets and guidelines were in vain.. You are very lucky that you have such a well educated vet that specializes in reptiles. I wish there were more of them throughout the states. Once again I do apologize if I offended you. Somethings that work for some may not work for others.

 

[lauraj1055]

I actually think it's quite cool, especially if your beardie is happy and healthy, pooping and eating everyday. Your beardie before the cage sounds like my beardie now. Always hides under his log all day, so I take the log out otherwise he would just stay under it all day.. he barely eats, and poops once every 3 weeks. He has been to the vets, he has the 'correct temps, correct distances..etc etc..' he barely moves around. He does come out and run, and when he does he goes right into my dogs crate!!! All the time... Makes me wonder if I should try something like this.

 

[Valerie]

If you do try something like this, I would love to know the out come.
I have a bunch of large bird cages in the attic and I would be interested but at the same time I am a bit chicken to try it.
Valerie

 

[tempusfugit]

Ya, I'm glad its working out for you, but its a bad idea. I've read about dragons being injured from 18 inch falls and less. They really don't "like" climbing, he's doing it out of necessity to get close enough to the uv bulb. You have one example that is far from scientific, there are plenty of other factors that could have contributed to what you observed as better health.

I am not trying to offend either, I just don't think unfounded ideas should be thrown out as advice to any random person on the internet.

http://www.beardeddragons.co.za/health-bearded-dragon-fall-injuries.htm

"Falling injuries can also be the result from falling from cage furniture that is too high or after climbing onto the sides of high cages. These Bearded dragon falling injuries can stopped my preventing high platforms to begin with."

Mind you they are probably talking about even a 2 foot cage here, not thinking about bird cages...

 

[RowenJade]

I seriously hope no one is considering this. Like the previous poster said, It's a BAD idea. She's lucky the poor beardie hasn't
1. broken a leg climbing and falling off those wires
2. fallen from his own little stick thing she has in there
3. fallen from the BIRD ladder she uses to let him climb out. (FYI. Beardie's are not good climbers, I HOPE you have carpet)
4. gotten a respiratory infection from too much humidity depending on where she lives and what she's got in her room.

Beardies do not live in the same climate that humans do. They need to have their own little box so to speak of where their environment is controlled to be just like their natural environment. If you're vet's seen alot of fried dragons, he must have dealt with alot of stupid owners. Get a probe, lower wattage, etc. Its not that hard! God forbid she puts her A/C on since it is summer, it even affects my beardie's temps if the A/C is on and they have wooden enclosures! He is exposed and people need to see it as that, not something to be imitated.

I waited for so long to post on this topic because my husband and I were laughing so hard about it but thinking about it more, this is really not funny at all. It's ridiculous yes, but she should not be on here recommending this to people because she's putting other beardies at risk putting it in peoples heads it's ok to be cheap and get a bird cage and put their lives at risk this way.

 

[RowenJade]

ever since I moved Borris from a horizontal, "fish-cage" like cage to a tall, bird cage, he has become infinitely more active.

Did you have a screen lid for the other fish tank? Screen filters out 50% of UVB and if he wasn't getting within a couple of inches from it with that screen in place that could be why he wasn't very active. Now that he's in a birdcage it all probably could have been solved if you mounted the UVB fixture on the inside of the cage and made sure that he was within 6" - 8" of it. I would love the phone number to your vet.

 

[NightmareDisco]

I agree with my dear friend, Jessica, above. Bird cages are for birds, not reptiles. That cage cannot hold the temperature that is needed for your dragon to be healthy and happy, or to even properly digest his food. If there was anything wrong with aquarium tanks, 85% of beardie owners wouldn't use them. You need to take the time to measure and adjust your temps so that they are correct. Not only does your dragon need his basking spot, he needs a warm area (83-93 F) and a cool area (73-80 F) at all times so he can properly regulate his body temp. I had a mesh cage at one point and I went through hell and a whole lot of money trying to get my temps right, I came close, but it simply cannot be done. And, as Jess said, your dragon is vulnerable to any temp change outside of his enclosure with that cage. I just shelled out $245 to have a beautiful new viv built for my dragon 1. So I knew he would be happy and healthy and 2. Because I wanted to run my A/C.

I am not trying to insult you, or anyone else, I just think that this is one of the worst ideas I have ever seen when considering the heath of your pet. If you talk to your vet and he says that this set up is alright, all he wants from you is your money, he does not care about your dragon.

Beardies need lots of open floor space, I fear that your dragon will get hurt on all of those sticks, and he certainly should not be climbing up and down a ladder.

My head spins at all the horror this set up could potentially cause.

I wish you good luck.

 

[Valerie]

I feel stupid, I wasn't even thinking about the falling part of it. Sizzle has fallen off her log and it is luckily only a 5 inch drop if that much.
Valerie

 

[Gail]

Besides the fact that the floor space is too small and the UVB is too far away, there isn't anything wrong with this set up. Humidity will never be a problem unless she is in the jungle and her house has no air flow. I have no idea why people think dragons don't climb. Wild dragons do climb, to bask, to escape predators, to watch their domain. True that many of our pet dragons wouldn't do so well climbing but thats because many are fat and lazy, mine included.
If her dragon is healthy and happy then who cares if her approach is different? I'm more concerned about people sticking them in hamster balls, is it really that hard to watch while your dragon roams around? I can't imagine stuffing a long tailed animal in a ball.

Wild dragons doing what dragons do.

 

[thegreybush]

I just don't think unfounded ideas should be thrown out as advice to any random person on the internet.

Keep in mind, please, that these forums are not the end all discussion of bearded dragon care. What she has brought to the table here is not unfounded. She has been using this setup for over a year now with, when compared to the normal baseline setup, great results. We need to be more sensitive in how we approach a question that is asked. I'm noticing classic forum troll behavior with people jumping on each others shoulders with the same regurgitated care sheet crap that we all know and worship. The best answers come from experience. Why does everybody ask Tom about breeding? Not because he has been following the other breeders blogs, but because he has been doing it for awhile with passion and results and I'm sure some mistakes that make his advice founded and true.

Please stop crucifying this poster for suggesting that the world may not be flat like we all believe and that our beardies may not be made of glass and might actually enjoy the things that wild lizards enjoy. I sat around last night thinking about this witch burning and I asked myself this: All these people with their torches and pitchforks can rattle off the best way to raise a beardie, what to feed them, the percentages of nutrients and best sources, the ideal conditions, how to diagnose problems, etc. Buuuuut some of these people may have one bearded dragon....maybe their first. Maybe less than a year now? There's another thread in here that can answer that question that we can check. My point is that the best information comes from experience. If you're going to answer a question, please start that answer with this:

In my experience, in regards to this problem which we have both faced, this is what worked for me. I got the idea from ______.

or

In my experience, this did not work well for me when I tried the same thing. This is what happened to me/my beardie and why I wouldn't recommend that.

or

While I haven't faced this problem before I think I can point you in the right direction. I know this person who has dealt with this. While his results may not represent the majority of situations, he/she may be able to offer some advice on what could happen.

Please stop crucifying this poster. I like new friends to share stories with and I don't want them to leave afraid to contribute to the community of ideas.

 

[lauraj1055]

I totally agree!! Sometimes I'm afraid to post ANYTHING on here in fear that I will be crusified or considered a bad Mom to my babies because I did something out of the ordinary, or didn't do something I should have that I didn't know I should have.. It's just crazy here sometimes.

 

[thegreybush]

Re: How many crickets do you feed your beardies a day?

Postby FBradshaw » Tue May 17, 2011 1:54 pm

thegreybush wrote:I think the text book answer is "as much as they'll take in 10-15 minutes."

The real question is how old is/are your beardy/ies?



Seconded.

When I used crickets, I fed them chick starter feed. It's a high vitamin, high protein mix meant for baby chickens but works fine for crickets too. I also used Fluker's cricket gut load with calcium for their "water" source. They will also eat any left over veggies from your dragons, and I've heard of people using flake fish food.

Here's a great way to post ideas and responses. I read this and I said WOW that's a great idea on how to feed crickets. I may have to try that even though its not sold at Petco or Petsmart or something that I've been doing that I know works!