Think I have a sick dragon from hornworms

[KarenInCA]

I thought it was a shed issue...but I don't think so any more. Post is edited to remove some questions about shedding, because I no longer think it's a shed issue...


We changed him from crickets to dubia about 3 weeks ago, and he has been gobbling them down at the rate of about 15 medium to large dubia in one sitting, along with eating his salads well.
In the past 3 days, however, he has changed his behavior. He is still sweet (aside from some dragon teen angst here and there). But in the past 3 days he has not eaten any salad that I can see, and he has eaten about 3 dubia a day...that's because I really encourage it. He is still interested in hornworms and eats two big ones after the dubia sittings.
Today, he actually let the dubia crawl around him and grew tired of watching them. Then ate one hornworm. And as soon as I put him into his viv, he went and hid in his cool side.
Is it possible that the hornworms are making him feel sick? Ive noticed that out of the last 12 I got, one of them has not grown and another one is still tiny but looks dead. The other ones have grown but instead of the plastic container smelling super fruity like it usually does, it smells a bit off, and the poop to the hornworms is blackish instead of light brown in color. Could the doughy food be rancid, in turn causing Rin to feel sickly?
Or is it a shed coming on?
I ended up getting him out of the cool hide area after feeding him, and gave him a warm bath that he seemed to enjoy because as always he started getting really relaxed and closing his eyes. He did kind of hiccup though. That's the best I can describe it. His chin moved up and down a few times...kind of like the way a toad does. Do they get hiccups, or again, is it that the hornworms are making him feel weird? Or am I just being a paranoid dragon owner, and it's just the beginning of a possible shed?
Nothing has changed in his lighting or his viv settings or his feeding schedule that I have him on.

I wanted to mention as well...his poops are normal as well, except for yesterday, it was a bit runny...but I figured that should be expected with eating, for the most part, two hornworms a day, and not much else for the past 3 days.

 

[KarenInCA]

Anyone??

I did notice that his baking spot (actually a small platform) is 110 on one side and 98 on the other side, big difference on it. So, maybe that's why he is acting weird. I moved the lamp over a bit and the platform down a bit, and hopefully that will change things.

Tonight he ate some medium dubia (about 15 or so-and he usually eats about 30 or more easily), but I had to feed them to him off my fingers. He wouldn't just dive in on his own, like he usually does with dubia, when he sees them moving around. He also ate some salad today.

As for the medium dubia, I received them in the mail today, and they were priority 1 day shipping. A few of them were dead upon arrival. No biggie, I kind of have to expect that. But most of them feel very soft shelled, and appeared lifeless. Is that normal when they get shipped? They arrived in one day, and our temps here are nice, around 85 degrees outside, so it wasn't too hot for them to be shipped.
Just wondering if a lot of times they seem a bit lifeless and soft due to shipping them, sometimes.

 

[derk24]

I'm not as experienced as the other members on this forum but my new guy is in the middle of a shed and he is eating less than he normally eats.

I've been giving him small Supers and Phoenix Worms, usually he eats like 10 - 12 small Supers and a good 30 Phoenix Worms. Since his shedding started on his head he's ate half of the Supers and maybe 10 Phoenix Worms from what he usually gobbles down.

 

[Brezzy99]

The dubia I get are always really active when I unpack them. Does he look like he is about to shed? It kinda sounds like a combination of puberty, shed, and maybe his basking spot warmer than he likes. Have you posted anything about the dubia in the feeder section? Have they perked up any?

 

[KarenInCA]

Dubia- Many of them have not perked up, and are soft shelled, too soft. I don't know what happened, but I have gathered about 50 of them tonight alone, that won't come off their backsides when they are on the bottom of the tub and I move them around...nothing but small squirmish moves, which was not like last time when I ordered them, and when the ones that are that way do move around, they can barely walk. The ones like this are the soft shelled ones, like there is no shell at all, except for the look of the shell itself, they are squishy. Im going through and removing the ones that look like they are sickly, even if they are still alive. I have no idea what is wrong with them as it could be anything from pesticide ingestion to a sickness that dubia get that spreads..who knows? I certainly don't know.


Rin- Seems like he is sick. He again only ate about 5 nymphs and that was after really coaxing him. Tonight my husband came home and said that he pooped in his viv and it was not runny but diaharia splats. When I was outside trying to feed him, he tried to poop again, and ran around like he usually does when he has to poop. And pooped just a TINY bit of urate. I would never know he was pooping it if I wasn't sitting there, that was how small it was, but he sure did act like he had to go.
He has lost a little weight. I don't have a scale, but his sides are getting the wrinkles in them when he turns, and usually he is beefy. Not a lot of weight, but enough for me to be concerned.
This afternoon, he just stared at the dubia and it took one hour to feed him 5. It was like he wanted to eat but couldn't.
I really think the hornworms are the cause. The clay food in their tub is smelling more and more rancid, and there are two of them out of 12 that have NOT grown at all in 1 week. They are not dead, but they might as well be. There is one worm in there still that's fat, but his sides are brown, like it's sick, and the fras balls (poop) are blackish/dark brown, not light brown fras balls as they normally are. Just really odd. Unfortunately, he ate 9 of the 12 before I stopped feeding them to him, when I realized something was not right. I knew the chow smelled a bit odd, but didn't think much of it, till Rin started acting like he didn't want to eat, about 4 days ago.
I'm taking the 3 worms left over, back tomorrow, but the most difficult thing about that is not the money associated with 12 hornworms as much as my dragon is now sick, and that's all I can pinpoint it to being.

So, yeah, feeders have not been the best this week. Hoping everything gets better next week.
I know people have posted before about sick dragons, and diaharia, but what should I do for my dragon tomorrow? He's always been so healthy that I have not paid a lot of attention to what should be done when they seem to have a diaharia problem.

 

[KarenInCA]

I came home today and found Rin under his basking branch, and he was very cool. His color was nice though, and he had his back legs spread out. He was interested in my presence and his appetite seems up. He took interest in about 25-30 medium dubia that I hand picked. I put them individually on my hand and he plucked them off. And several fresh phoenix worms. Then we went outside into the backyard where he sunbathed for a good half hour, in about 98 degree weather.

It was all fine......
Until.....
He decided to go onto the rocks and looked at them. Usually he stands there and waits for rolly polly's to move around on them, and snatches them up. NOT THIS TIME. This time he started crunching and munching on something that was gray and super crunchy sounding. I couldn't figure out what it was. As I looked closer, I noticed it happened to be a pebble in his mouth. Actually a little larger than a pebble (I had no idea the rocks had pebbles around them at all). He happened to find the ONE large pebble and kept crunching on it. I could hear him trying to crunch and when I looked over, it was a gray, large pebble. I saw him with it in his mouth and tried to pry his mouth open to take it out, but he closed his mouth down shut.

I watched him closely, and waited till he was gaping again, and when he did, I noticed that the pebble was sitting inside his mouth, the very back of his throat. Goodness. I pulled his mouth open, and was going to tip him upside down and shake it out, but he shook his head so that his mouth could get away from my fingers and then he jumped forward and away from me. He then kept trying to walk/run beyond me, over my arm, and back to the rocks, and I kept telling him no and getting in his way and redirecting him to the other side, which he ignored, and kept moving toward the rocks, with a stronger force over my arm each time. After that battle, we went inside, and I gave him a bath in pedialyte and warm water, and also gave him a dropper of 2 ml of pedialyte. He tolerated both. The ONLY time he black bearded me through this entire ordeal was when he was getting a bath (after giving him a syringe of pedialyte). I don't think he liked having to drink it. I hope he's going to be okay. He just now started recovering from the rancid food given to the hornworms, and subsequent diaharia and now this damn pebble. UGH.

Now I have to wait and watch for him to pass that LARGE pebble at some point. I really hope he doesn't have major issues with it, meaning there might be an expensive vet bill in our future. It's large but not larger than his vent, about the size of a medium dubia, but rounder.

Does anyone know how long it takes for a foreign (but smooth) object to pass through a lizard?

We definitely had a love/hate relationship going on today. We sure are going through a rough patch this week.

On another subject, he IS shedding on his back legs.

 

[cfjustin]

I came home today and found Rin under his basking branch, and he was very cool. His color was nice though, and he had his back legs spread out. He was interested in my presence and his appetite seems up. He took interest in about 25-30 medium dubia that I hand picked. I put them individually on my hand and he plucked them off. And several fresh phoenix worms. Then we went outside into the backyard where he sunbathed for a good half hour, in about 98 degree weather.

It was all fine......
Until.....
He decided to go onto the rocks and looked at them. Usually he stands there and waits for rolly polly's to move around on them, and snatches them up. NOT THIS TIME. This time he started crunching and munching on something that was gray and super crunchy sounding. I couldn't figure out what it was. As I looked closer, I noticed it happened to be a pebble in his mouth. Actually a little larger than a pebble (I had no idea the rocks had pebbles around them at all). He happened to find the ONE large pebble and kept crunching on it. I could hear him trying to crunch and when I looked over, it was a gray, large pebble. I saw him with it in his mouth and tried to pry his mouth open to take it out, but he closed his mouth down shut.

I watched him closely, and waited till he was gaping again, and when he did, I noticed that the pebble was sitting inside his mouth, the very back of his throat. Goodness. I pulled his mouth open, and was going to tip him upside down and shake it out, but he shook his head so that his mouth could get away from my fingers and then he jumped forward and away from me. He then kept trying to walk/run beyond me, over my arm, and back to the rocks, and I kept telling him no and getting in his way and redirecting him to the other side, which he ignored, and kept moving toward the rocks, with a stronger force over my arm each time. After that battle, we went inside, and I gave him a bath in pedialyte and warm water, and also gave him a dropper of 2 ml of pedialyte. He tolerated both. The ONLY time he black bearded me through this entire ordeal was when he was getting a bath (after giving him a syringe of pedialyte). I don't think he liked having to drink it. I hope he's going to be okay. He just now started recovering from the rancid food given to the hornworms, and subsequent diaharia and now this damn pebble. UGH.

Now I have to wait and watch for him to pass that LARGE pebble at some point. I really hope he doesn't have major issues with it, meaning there might be an expensive vet bill in our future. It's large but not larger than his vent, about the size of a medium dubia, but rounder.

Does anyone know how long it takes for a foreign (but smooth) object to pass through a lizard?

We definitely had a love/hate relationship going on today. We sure are going through a rough patch this week.

On another subject, he IS shedding on his back legs.

Shedding will cause appetite issues, i'm glad Rin perked up his behavior today & enjoying the phoenix worms. The smooth rock should pass, if not it would lead to impaction. He should be fine since is not a small size anymore. Continue pedialyte on Tuesday, 2ml. Please keep me updated.

 

[KarenInCA]

Thanks cf.
Has anyone else had experience with their dragon swallowing larger pebbles? Im a bit worried at this point

 

[Taterbug]

Normal digestion can take around 2-5 days from the time the food goes in to when it comes back out. It depends on the age of the dragon and what they are eating, additional to husbandry.

I don't have any personal stories, but there are a few (even recently) on here of dragons passing large objects including; a pistachio nut, stones and a penny. Make sure you keep up the hydration to keep things moving. Wonder why he was so intent on eating those rocks.

As for your hornworms - it does sound like they upset his stomach. Not sure if it would be the food or not. I've only gotten hornworms once and thought the chow was repulsive. A few of my wormlings also failed to thrive - they were either weak and couldn't compete well enough for the food, or had problems molting. Pepper wasn't impressed with them so I haven't bothered since.

Good luck with Rin, I'll have my fingers crossed for him.

 

[KarenInCA]

I think he mistook the stone for an insect sitting pretty for him. (instinct) He likes the dubia when they're freshly maulted, which could look like a grayish stone I suppose, if he was in a hurry to eat it before it got away.

I'm not absolutely sure, but my thought is that once they put something in their mouth, the only two options are to chew it and swallow it. I don't think Ive ever seen him spit something out.
It was kind of freaky seeing it in the back of his throat when he was gaping though...knowing it would be impossible to shake it out of him.


Not sure if I should call him a dummy or if I should love on him more knowing he has a bit of time to pass the stone and that it might hurt. UGH. :x

 

[KarenInCA]

On keeping him hydrated, I was going to steer away from hornworms for a while, but Im thinking now, that maybe I should just push through and get a few more for him to bring down the stone faster/easier.

Any thoughts?

 

[Sauzo]

The dubias should be fast and alert. I breed my own and let me tell you, they can move pretty fast when they want too. My adult males can leap straight up and flutter over a 6 inch barrier and the nymphs can scoot like no ones business. They aren't as fast as something like a Turkistan roach aka red runners but those things are aliens and creepy as hell :lol:

Hornworms will hydrate him pretty good so I would use those. And be sure to bath him daily during the time and massaging his stomach to help pass the stone. You can also try olive oil on a piece of veggy or apple sauce to help lubricate him.

 

[diamc]

Oh dear, you have sure had a lot going on to worry you. Did the horns and the dubia come from the same place?

I was going to recommend a probiotic to help with his possible upset stomach from the horn worms but now the pebble is the main issue. Be sure to keep him well hydrated & would even be good to feed him some very warm baby food applesauce to help things move along quicker, that is, as long as the diarrhea has stopped. Squash is very good too.

Be sure to keep us updated on him and good luck.

 

[KarenInCA]

The dubias should be fast and alert. I breed my own and let me tell you, they can move pretty fast when they want too. My adult males can leap straight up and flutter over a 6 inch barrier and the nymphs can scoot like no ones business. They aren't as fast as something like a Turkistan roach aka red runners but those things are aliens and creepy as hell :lol:

Hornworms will hydrate him pretty good so I would use those. And be sure to bath him daily during the time and massaging his stomach to help pass the stone. You can also try olive oil on a piece of veggy or apple sauce to help lubricate him.

Dubia and Hornworms were not from the same place. Hornworms were from the local rep shop, and they agreed that the chow smelled bad. They (we) thought that maybe it was from a plastic container that kept getting hornworms from, and that the chow was too old. They gave me a refund for the three I returned.

Yeah, Dubia should be really fast as nymphs. Im really not sure what happened to these guys, I ordered 250 and about 75-100 have flipped over, all of them like that has super soft shells... not like shedding, but just darker, super soft. And if they are still alive, they are super slow when I turn them over and put them in a tub. They are medium dubia. Some survived, but it was a huge waste of money. This is a very well known online ordering place, and they are in the same town as I live, so it had nothing to do with shipping either. Took one day. VERY disappointed.
I just discarded the ones that seem sluggish and soft. Hopefully now the rest are all good.

 

[KarenInCA]

Oh dear, you have sure had a lot going on to worry you. Did the horns and the dubia come from the same place?

I was going to recommend a probiotic to help with his possible upset stomach from the horn worms but now the pebble is the main issue. Be sure to keep him well hydrated & would even be good to feed him some very warm baby food applesauce to help things move along quicker, that is, as long as the diarrhea has stopped. Squash is very good too.

Be sure to keep us updated on him and good luck.

How much applesauce should I feed him, and how often? He is now eating dubia really well. His appetite is up again. Yesterday and today he ate good. But he has not pooped since Friday, Im thinking that's because of the diaharia on Friday. I will try after work tomorrow to do our normal routine to get him to go poop outside, and steer clear of the rocks! I got some new hornworms today but haven't fed them to him yet.