The Low Down on Worms?

[newreptile]

Hey Guys!

So the website that I order my dubias from (www.dubiaroaches.com, try them they're amazing!) recently sent a free cup of BSF larvae along with my last dubia order, and I've been trying them out. Now when I bought Norton he was only being fed mealworms (although they aren't great I still give them to him as a treat sometimes because he loves them so much) and now he's also seemed to take a big liking to the larvae as well. He could care less about the dubias now! Is it healthy to just do an array of worms for his diet, since he seems to prefer worms so much more? What type of worms are best as a staple for his diet? Mealworms, super worms, horn worms, phoenix worms; there's so many out there and it's somewhat confusing! Only want the best for my little guy. Thanks!

 

[CooperDragon]

Variety is best if you can offer it. I'd try a rotation with some worms and then keep rotating the roaches back in and see if he gets interested again. Phoenix Worms are a pretty healthy staple worm because they're calcium rich and relatively low fat compared to other worms. Silk worms are also a great feeder worm. I'd put those heavily into rotation when you can get them. I would avoid the higher fat worms for the most part (wax worms, butter worms, etc). Horn worms are good as a treat and provide lots of hydration but I wouldn't overdo it with them. There is some information about the nutrition content of several feeder bugs here http://www.geckotime.com/nutritional-value-of-commercially-raised-insects/

 

[Taterbug]

My problem with worms is that they are all pretty soft. There is some information out there suggesting that to some degree harder shelled insects can help with dental health so it may be a good idea to keep some shelled insects that need to be chewed in the diet.

 

[z0mbiebabykiller]

I got a free cup of bsf larvae with my last order from them too! www.dubiaroaches.com is my go-to source , great prices, flat rate shipping $7, and usually here in 3 days. But yeah most places say bsf larvae are a great feeder for beardies. Mojo eats 30 at a time. he will even eat a few when he is finished eat a dozen roaches. he also gets 2-3 butter worms every few days. his main diet is bok choy, mustard greens and red runner roaches. every now and then a superworm or two. I definetly wouldn't feed him meal worms. why chance impaction when there are so many other options? the bsf larva also don't need calcium dusting's.

 

[newreptile]

I got a free cup of bsf larvae with my last order from them too! http://www.dubiaroaches.com is my go-to source , great prices, flat rate shipping $7, and usually here in 3 days. But yeah most places say bsf larvae are a great feeder for beardies. Mojo eats 30 at a time. he will even eat a few when he is finished eat a dozen roaches. he also gets 2-3 butter worms every few days. his main diet is bok choy, mustard greens and red runner roaches. every now and then a superworm or two. I definetly wouldn't feed him meal worms. why chance impaction when there are so many other options? the bsf larva also don't need calcium dusting's.

They're selling the larvae on their website now too, so I will definitely order from there! I don't know why, he's just never had any sort of issue when it comes to the mealworms, after about a week of him being at home he started pooping about once a day and has done that every single day since. Sometimes he likes to perch on his ledge and likes to be very picky about coming down to eat, with the roaches he would sometimes just flat out ignore them. So if he is being stubborn, I just toss a mealworm in his dish and he comes launching down to eat it. I've been trying to mix the dubias back in with the larvae while he's eating, but he doesn't seem to care for them anymore, maybe he'll eat a couple every few days? Either way he's loving the new larvae so. Worms are easier for him to catch and easier for me to handle, so if he prefers them then I'm down with that! I just wanted to make sure that doing a full diet of worms wouldn't be too fatty for him or anything like that.

 

[z0mbiebabykiller]

try the red runner roaches, 200 are only 7$ I think.

 

[Ed707]

I'd also try other worms then mealworms... superworms are even better then mealworms and look the same. I'm just waiting on my lizard to be big enough to eat supers and thats another worm I can rotate in.

The beautifuldragons nutrition page also say that silkworms "Contain an enzyme called serrapeptase, this has properties that make calcium absorption more efficient, can reduce inflammation, pain and best of all it can break down arterial plaque." I also read somewhere that phoenix worms have some enzyme or acid in them that helps fight bacteria. I bought them in bulk and started feeding them like the stickied page said in the feeders section. They really get alot bigger and she still ate 50 of them lol. Hornworms aren't that bad of a worm nutrition wise and most lizards like the colorful stuff to eat. Butterworms and waxworms are both more as a treat and I don't buy anymore then 50 of them and feed them off over a few weeks occasionally. She really likes waxworms haven't tried butters and don't know if I will.

 

[Taterbug]

I'd also try other worms then mealworms... superworms are even better then mealworms and look the same. I'm just waiting on my lizard to be big enough to eat supers and thats another worm I can rotate in.

The beautifuldragons nutrition page also say that silkworms "Contain an enzyme called serrapeptase, this has properties that make calcium absorption more efficient, can reduce inflammation, pain and best of all it can break down arterial plaque." I also read somewhere that phoenix worms have some enzyme or acid in them that helps fight bacteria. I bought them in bulk and started feeding them like the stickied page said in the feeders section. They really get alot bigger and she still ate 50 of them lol. Hornworms aren't that bad of a worm nutrition wise and most lizards like the colorful stuff to eat. Butterworms and waxworms are both more as a treat and I don't buy anymore then 50 of them and feed them off over a few weeks occasionally. She really likes waxworms haven't tried butters and don't know if I will.

Serrapeptase is the enzyme silk moths use to dissolve their cocoons when they emerge. I've been trying to find information about how much the larvae have just in general, if it's enough to be meaningful but haven't found anything.

I think you are thinking of lauric acid in the soldier fly larvae. The feeding in the sticky article seems like a lot of work. I would put some pepper or other veggies in with mine and they would eat it to the skin. They are pretty easy to breed in the summer - they make a great mini composter but stink pretty bad.

 

[Ed707]

Feeding the bsfl really wasn't that much work and I think it's worth it. I use one slice of bread and 1 small baby food and they'll eat the majority of it in a few days. I got them pretty fat, around the size of waxworms or bigger in a week or so I was really surprised when I did a side by side comparison. Usually change out the food every 3-4 days and if I see it getting dry in between I just add some water and I keep a napkin over the critter keeper like the thread suggested and it helps keep the smell down. Once they've been fattened up I just put them back in the substrate and container they came in. She was really engulfing the small ones, 2 or 3 at once, and not digesting them very well so I figured I'd fatten em up. She actually has to take a bite out of em now which I hope will help to get her stomach acids going to digest them. I'm prolly going to buy batches of 500 or so and do this everytime now. There just to little to feed otherwise and she'll have whole worms in her poop.

 

[Ed707]

I don't want to hijack anyone's thread but since your the right person to ask tater... do you think feeding and growing the Phoenix worms changes there nutritional value?

 

[newreptile]

I don't want to hijack anyone's thread but since your the right person to ask tater... do you think feeding and growing the Phoenix worms changes there nutritional value?

Hijack away! I think the world of worms can be super confusing sometimes and just a lot of information, so the more information we can put together about them the better!

 

[Taterbug]

I don't want to hijack anyone's thread but since your the right person to ask tater... do you think feeding and growing the Phoenix worms changes there nutritional value?

I'm glad they plumped up enough and she is having to chew her food now. That should help them get digested for sure.

It does, but not in a way that I would worry too much about. If you just feeding them for a few days there probably is not as much of a difference as if you raised them on different diets from eggs. They are popular for food for farmed fish as well as chickens so there are a few studies out there that look at what feeds yield this that or the other nutrient profile. Some diets yielded grubs much higher in fat than others for example (I think that was high in chicken manure? but I would need to look it up) They will still be high in calcium because that's just the nature of them, interestingly that calcium gets left behind on the pupal casing and the flies aren't notable for calcium content like the grubs are. Some dragons like to chase after the flies and enjoy eating them too. I fed my bin with produce scraps, bread and other stuff that I am not apposed to giving my other feeder insects - even if it changes the nutrients around a bit I'm not too worried. I try to get as much variety of insects as I can to try and hit all the good points of the different ones.

What they are fed changes the nutritional value for many insects. We are all familiar with gut loading with good healthy food to give a boost right before being fed off, but insects raised life-long on certain diets can be more nutritious and healthful whereas others could be higher in fat or others still rather nutritionally void.