The adventures of Samson and Delilah

[MODragons]

Howdy folks,

Thought I would begin my foray into Beardom with an introduction of Samson and Delilah....please excuse the poor quality of a cell phone.

Both beardies were aquired from a local hobbyist who was getting out of the hobby. I was told they are 4 years old and the previous owner has housed them together since babies with reportedly no problems at all. They came with their home, an 80 gallon or thereabouts Oceanic "Lizard Lounger"..... (interested Pooch did not come with package deal)

Immediately I realized the lights were inadequate, using a Klein tools multimeter with digital temperature probe I was reading mid 80's temp, and there was no UVB bulb - apparently hasn't been one for "awhile". Zoomed out to the Tye-Dyed Iguana (plug) and picked up a dual "deep dome" Zoo-Med fixture and a Flukers Mercury Vapor Bulb. Also picked up 50 Superworms as these guys came with like 10 pounds of the Rep Cal pelletized food - apparently that is all they ever ate.

First day together they got along super, albeit as the earlier pic shows Samson on top of Delilah in a dominant position might of been a foretelling of things to come. Samson looked "dry" with lots of wrinkles in his skin, Delilah looks nice and plump, previous owner thinks she might be pregnant. (is that the right term or "with eggs" ? ) Put them in a bath, along with a couple of rolled up washclothes which was suggested here on the forums to give them a sense of security.....

I left them in there for 20 minutes, Delilah drank alot of water with her tongue, Samson did not - however I assume he absorbed some via skin. They both ate a half dozen of those pellets that I put in with some water which caused them to soften and swell. They each went to their own side of the tank which had a large branch for them to bask and crashout on....lights out.

Next morning having realized they did not have a "hide" in the tank I picked up one of those half circle pieces of wood with bark on it. I combine both pieces of drift towards one side of the tank, and left the hide on the other. Samson ruled the drift wood it appeared, Delilah basked on the half moon bark. There was no obvious reason for what transpired next, best I could tell ol' Samson wanted to check out the half moon where Delilah was basking when all hell broke loose.....some pretty good scrapping wherein I seen Samson's leg in Delilahs mouth and Delilah got bit on the "lip" which drew blood.



I kept a gripper tool between them for awhile but realized I couldn't do this all day. I took the glass top and split the tank in two in order to keep the fighting damage to a minimum. That only POed the both of them off worse as they went at each other from either side of the glass. A stroke of genius by my better half resulted in a phone call to GoodWill...they just so happened to have a "Critter Cage" for sale, included a big light, some wood, a few bowls, and a man made plastic "cave"/hide. All for 50 bucks....

During my intial introduction to this board earlier in the week, a few members noted you can't keep two beardies together....I should mention two dozen others said it wouldn't be a problem...regardless, my plan always was to be prepared for any eventuality so the purchase of another tank, although very disheartening to my hopes they would get along in one good sized tank, was part of the plan. I took the intiative and setup a second tank within hours of the fight breaking out. Here's a picture of Samson's new home, a 40 gallon breeder tank.

I had to put kraft paper on the side of the large tank as Delilah would just go crazy glass dancing and head bobbing when looking at her old tankmate. Other issues that I need some help with.....the 40 breeder came with a Phillips 250W UltraViolet bulb - or is it an "Infrared" bulb....the bulb itself is clear, its not red. I got the temp right at 95-100 under that light hanging over a basking log, Samson is closing his eyes alot, he likes the temperature however. Is this bulb not good for Bearded Dragons ?

Its bothered me so much that I put it on the other side and put a 100W basking bulb fixture in its place...getting about 90 degrees with it 6" from the highest point of the basking log. (that concerns me as being too close) The 250W which I raised to 18" off the sand bed...yes "sand" but that will change....but even then it was getting the plastic cave way too hot to the touch. The probe showed temps in the low 80s, but that darn plastic cave was awfully hot to the touch so I pulled it out. Can those things even be used with a bearded dragon given their inability to feel temps on their belly ?



Lastly, a concern about food. The first day the gobbled up their standard "swollen" pellets, the next day they each ate 6 Superworms. They have not eaten any of their "greens" we have mixed up for them the last three days, nor will they now touch those pellets. I have given each 6 Superworms yesterday and today, that sure doesn't seem like enough...is it ? I thought maybe if they were hungry they would learn to eat the greens, which if you believe the previous owner they have never had before. As a matter of fact the previous owner, still swearing they never fought in 4 years, believes it was the delicious Superworms that might of caused the fighting problem....I'm not so sure.


No matter what started the fighting, nature, new surroundings, stress....how is it that breeding ever occurs in a tank if these guys can't live peacefully together ?

What should I do to encourage eating their greens....I assume make sure temps are in the mid 90s to 105, and keep offering it to them in the mornings after the lights have been on for an hour or two. Should I keep feeding Superworms and if so, how many should I be feeding them each day and still hope to get them to eat their greens ?

Thank you for your time and any replies in advance.

 

[sweetiepie9]

Hi and welcome to our forum, we're all beardie lovers here & the pics you took are great!

Wow, I'm amazed that they didn't fight during the four years they were together, but you can tell that Delilah was the dominant female as I can see by Samson's mouth that he has the beginning of metabolic bone disease, it's mis-shapened him mouth.

I'm so glad they're in their own tanks, Delilah is upset that she doesn't have Samson to dominate anymore, as that's what she's used to.

For UVB you need Reptisun 10.0 tubes or Power Sun mercury vapour lights, with the Reptisun you need a basking light, Power Suns and other mercury vapour lights give heat & UVB at the same time. The 250W is too hot to use, you can use an ordinary household bulb for basking light, 60W to 100W, just check the temps. You said both dragons haven't had UVB for awhile, it's very important for good beardie health.

As for veggies, just keep offering, they probably don't know what they are, being used to eating beardie pellets. 6 supers each a day are plenty for adult beardies. For a great nutrition list, check out http://www.beautifulbeardies.com & click on Nutrition. It's the best beardie list I've ever come across & I've been using it for 6 years now. I also have dragons that don't like veggies, but I still offer a variety every day, as long as they eat a bit. My bunch (I have 4 adult males) love butternut squash, so try that as well, it's a daily staple as is any other kind of squash.

See if you can place the tanks so they can't see each other. They'll also need calcium, as they probably never got any. Make sure it's calcium with vitD3 & no phospherous. They need that on at least 2-3 feedings a week, also multi-vitamins once a week. I would continue the baths, especially for Samson as he looks dehydrated. Beardies do need water, I give my guys a good bath every 2nd day and daily in the summer, also drip water on their snouts & they lick it off. As Delilah already drinks from bath water, she's looking well hydrated. You might want to try giving Samson water in an oral syringe, just drops on his snout to see if he licks them off.

And I would take Samson to a good herp vet, as I think he needs a good check up, more than Delilah does.

I'm very glad they're in good hands, now. As for the sand, replace it with newspaper, easy to clean up & ink doesn't tansfer to the beardie. I have 2 of my beardies on newspaper (they poop in their tanks) and the other two, who poop in their bath, are on repticarpet. Tiles are also good as a substrate.

Good luck with your two new beardies & welcome to being a great beardie slave!
Deb

 

[MODragons]

Thanks for the welcome, the suggestions, and the reply.

I'm a wee bit confused, you're thinking the dragon (male Samson) photographed on top of the female Delilah, in the first picture is the one being dominated ?

And you're thinking that its Samson with a misshapened mouth ? It would appear its the one on the bottom that might have some mouth issues...no ?


Lastly, its my understanding that these pellets have all the calcium and D3 they'll need...again, no ???

 

[sweetiepie9]

Sorry if I got them mixed, up, thought Samson was on the bottom, so just reverse what I said. Guess Delilah is the one who needs more calcium/vit D as if he's always been on top of her, she's not had any UVB at all, or very little. Did the guy you got them from say when the last time they did get UVB?

As for the Adult Bearded Dragon Food, I have the Rep-Cal bottle. It does show alot of vitamins & calcium, but not %. I would imagine that it has all the vitamins/minerals beardies need, but I'm not sure about the calcium/vitD ratio. The Rep-cal ultrafine calcium I have says: the ratio should be 15:1 calcium/phospherous. The calcium is made from natural phospherous-free oyster shell. Calcium Carbonate for it's calcium source. It states it's 35%-40% Calcium with 400,000 IU/kg. I was told that adults need a dusting 3x/wk & vit/min 1x/wk. I'm not a chemist, so can't tell if the beardie food gives out right calcium/vitD ratio, but it does give lots of vit/min. They look healthy, so that's probably the right mix. I'm not a chemist, so it's hard for me to compare. My beardies won't eat the beardie bites, so again, it's hard to compare. That's why I moved this thread to health, so someone with more experience with Beardie Bites would be able to help you with that.

The UVB you've chosed is the same type I've chosen, but mine in a Power Sun, they both give out better UVB than a tube. Does your UVB give out heat as well? If they're used to being together, that would explain why Delilah is glass dancing. It's good that she got alot of water, if she's dehydrated, she should get a bath daily to get more water in her for awhile. And if she's the beardie on the bottom, she does have the beginning of metabolic bone disease & will need alot of UVB and more calcium w/vit D than what she's getting to get the disease to stop. Is it only her mouth that's different? At least she's getting her own UVB now. Also if you find the 80 gallon too big for her, put the glass, covered, to form a barrier so she has less room, easier to keep warmer.

So again, sorry about my mix-up, guess Samson got the best of everything, if he sat on Delilah all the time. And that explains the fighting, too, I'm surprised it hadn't happened before, so I'm glad you separated them. Delilah, being used to Samson, is probably wanting to be with him, but is she the one caused the fight? So maybe not. I've never housed dragons together. My 4 males would fight in a second if they were anywhere together. So they do get outside, but only 1 by 1.

I'm hoping someone else who uses beardie bites will have more information re: calcium/vit D for you. And help with Delilah. I once rescued a beardie we named Angel, she'd never had any UVB and was 16 mo old. She was so skinny & her bones were so soft, that we put soft old towels down for her to sit on. I started the next day giving her liquid calcium 0.01 ml/100g weight, plus chicken w/veg & butternut squash babyfood. After a week she was good with supers and veggies, but I continued the liquid calcium for the rest of the time I had her. When we got her she could only move by her elbows, but within 2 mo, she was able to use her legs. So she was in much worse shape than Delilah & she recovered. We didn't know she had internal kidney problems, but we had her for a year before the kidney problems killed her. Our vet didn't realize it either, even testing didn't show it until she got so sick suddenly & passed away. Her MBD was so much worse than Delilah's not the same at all, but that shows how important UVB is to a dragon.

I hope they continue to be healthy for you, separating them will give them alot more years of good life. My oldest dragon, Lonzo, will be 9 yrs old in April and he's very healthy, too. They eat supers & veggies & I'm trying to get them to each roaches, as they're better for them. I do gutload the supers by feeding them the greens my beardies like to eat and supers are very meaty under their shell. So I've never had a problem with them eating them, and as I said 6/day is fine, I've been told that they shouldn't eat more than 50/week. I think the beardie bites can be given as main veggie, but keep putting small bits of greens & veggies, maybe they'll take a bite one day just out of curiousity & they'll like it.

Good luck,
Deb

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is great you have already separated them! They will be much happier. In captivity it is not common that they are actually able to "get along" for long bouts of time. In the wild, they mate, then go their separate ways but are not confined like in captivity to where they are not able to get away from each other, etc.
Do you have a picture of the Phillips MVB that is a 250 watt bulb? You have raised the distance now? I am not familiar with this brand of MVB light but it may not be a good one though & made in China which could possibly emit UVC wavelength.
Are you using a digital probe thermometer to measure the temperatures? They need a range of 95-110 & a cool end of around 78-82, to thermoregulate.
The plastic things such as the cave you mentioned, do get hot so it's best to keep them from getting too hot to avoid them getting burned. Moving the basking further away helps, but you should only need a 100 or 120 watt bulb.
The pellets are ok, but should not be used as a staple or to replace fresh veggies, etc. You still need to provide calcium on a regular basis as just the pellets may not be enough to completely sustain them on their requirements.

Let us know how they are doing.

Tracie

 

[MODragons]

Hi Deb,

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply, especially for such an informative one at that!

Delilah is the girl shown on the bottom, I'm wanting to weigh them but I don't have a gram scale....I've got a postal ounce scale so I guess that will have to do for now. She is the one with a miss shaped mouth, possibly due to some earlier fighting as she has small scars on the tip of her nose and just underneath her chin. Samson the male bit her right there drawing blood prior to moving them apart - that was after the picture was taken however. Delilah looks the heavier of the two, the previous owner thought she was preganant. She had apparently laid at least two clutches in the past with Samson as the sire or possibly she laid the eggs asexual style - I don't know for sure if the eggs hatched or not.

I asked the previous owner if they used a UVB light and he said it burnt out "awhile" ago....so I have no idea how long they've been without UVB. She is currently in the 80 gallon tank with the Fluker's MVB and a 100w basking light side by side in the ZooMed dual fixture, with another 100w basking light in the opposite end of the tank. I'm reading 95 degrees +/- 5 degrees on the highest basking point under the MVB bulb, and 80 degrees +/- 5 degrees at the lowest basking point under the opposite side 110w basking bulb. That perch is about 4" off the sand bed so I assume its slightly cooler right at the sand itself. There's some shade at the opposite side of the tank under the MVB bulb setup due to a large piece of drift wood which casts a good sized shadow. There's a 4" deep, approximately 6" wide triangular dish in the cooler side half filled with water. It seems like a proper setup for her with a gradient temperature along the length of the tank. She seems to enjoy it,,,,my better half was excited to see her eating some greens today...I bought mustard and collar greens with Alfalfa sprouts which are supposedly high in calcium.



Samson who is the male, weighs less, and appears less hydrated to my novice eye due to wrinkly skin, is the more active of the two. He's the one who is shown on top of the female and my first impression was the dominant one. I wouldn't say he started the fight but he continued it. I have seen him "wave" numerous times both when he was in the tank with the female and since he's been moved into his new tank but prior to me blocking off their view of each other with kraft paper on one side of the larger tank. So its kind of weird, he sometimes appears dominant and other times waves, Delilah seems more laid back but she's the one who does some serious head bobbing.....IDK



Thanks for the reply Tracie, I don't have a picture of the bulb and its presently too hot to touch so I can't really even remember whether it said Phillips Infrared or Ultra Violet, its 250w like I mentioned and agree its way too much - it came with the 50.00 dollar GoodWill tanksetup so beggars can't be choosers I guess. I have raised it 18" off the surface of the sand, the "cool" side it lights up at 86 to 88 degrees. That was the side I had the "cave" on but I have since removed that plastic hotbox. The other side has just a regular 100w basking light, a couple pieces of wood make a high point of approximately 6" to the light bulb - too close imho but the temp is right at 94-96 degrees. If I raise the light the temp drops, so its not perfect but at this point its the best I can do. Theres is some temperature gradient but not enough shade...although under the wood basking area the temp is 85 degrees I just never seen Samson go under there. The tank has a 6-8" food dish that I filled with water, I never seen him drink from it.

The problem I forsee is the tank is too small, its a 40 breeder but only 36" in length. I'm figuring on getting another ZooMEd dual fixture with a basking light and Fluker's MVB and putting it to one side of the tank....nothing at all on the other side....but that still might not get me the proper temp gradient. An alternative is to get a single fixture with a larger wattage bulb as basking, and a flourescent tube for UVB....another alternative and the one I would like to pursue is to build a custom tank out of melamine...a 4' by 2' by 2' but I wouldn't have any use for a ZooMEd dual fixture. Time and money are conspiring to make the decision on which way to go and how fast to get there a difficult one. I hope he'll be okay in the 40 for awhile....I'm concerned for him.


Bath nite, I hope they don't fight when I put them together in the tub.....thanks again for the replies folks!

 

[sweetiepie9]

So how are things going with your beardies? I was just thinking of this post, so thought I'd drop in.
Deb

 

[MODragons]

Not a whole lot to report....Delilah the female ate some cucumber from my hand, its the first "greens" I've actually seen either of them eat. ALthough I put their Superworms/Crickets in their feed bowls in an attempt to get them used to feeding with greens in their bowl....they have accidently eaten some turnip or mustard greens in the process.

The female gets worked up glass dancing and throwing substrate, she can't see the male but knows he's there. He's pretty chill but does handwave....I bathe them together and Samson tries to mount her so maybe its some sort of seasonal mating thing. We handle them a bit, they seem to chill on our chest or tummies. I researched some cool substrate material at HDs....

Its 17 3/4" square which would be perfect for either of the tanks I have, they have 12" versions too which would work nicely for a future 24" wide vivarium I'm hoping to build out of Melamine.

Got a reptile show to go to this weekend, seen some pics of past shows and it looks like its pretty good sized....they have it four times a year...I'm pretty stoked about going, went to a few saltwater coral shows (frag swaps) and they were always fun and very informational.

Otherwise, dusting some crickets, scooping some poop, reading my Beardie book, and eye balling another light fixture...the ZooMed "Slider" Reptile Hood....guy here locally has one on the cheap in good shape. Any reviews are appreciated....

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=6556

Hope all is well with you and the "kids".....off to bed so I can get up and go to work tomorrow.

 

[sweetiepie9]

The mounting will happen any time those two are together, even though spring is the season for mating, so I would give their baths separately, you don't want to have to deal with eggs, fertile or not.

The tile looks great, better than sand, it will wear down their nails, too, so they won't get too long.

Glad they're eating & that's a great idea about putting greens in with their worms, crickets. They'll get the idea & be chomping on their greens! Sounds like they're starting to feel better.

As for glass dancing, usually means she wants OUT, I have a dragon that thinks he owns the living room, glass dances all day, he's so funny. It won't do her any harm. Once you've got tile in their tanks, she won't be able to throw the sand around.

Dragons usually love to be handled, all mine love to cuddle & will stay on me as long as I'll let them (one at a time, of course, if I take out two they always try to kill each other).

Have fun at the reptile show. I'm glad they're settling in so well.
Deb