Swollen Limb - Update Dec 21/11 - Uh-oh...

[baby_geek]

Still no word on the results... I'm going to call them tomorrow evening (they are open late on Thursdays) if I still have not heard from them.

Christina - I pull up 0.2ml concentrated cherry juice then 0.2ml Allopurinol in the same syringe and I don't mix them - that way she gets the bad taste first but has cherry juice to get rid of the flavour. Then I give her a silkworm to help with residual taste. She still dislikes the whole procedure and I have to wrap her in a towel, place the syringe in her 'cheek' sliding it gently up and down her teeth/gums untill she opens, then I squirt the whole amount in her mouth. More often than not the entire med dose goes in her mouth then when she clamps down it is only a bit of cherry juice that leaks out. She black beards me for a few minutes afterwards then warms back up to me.

The only milk thistle I could find is a tincture and she only needs a small drop and it is recommended (with this one anyways) to hold it in your mouth before swallowing as it starts to absorb through the mucous membranes. Well Squishy really doesn't like the milk thistle and won't open her teeth which works out best for me... I can place the drop on the outside of her teeth and it sits on the mucous membranes until she finally opens her mouth. The drop is small enough that it doesn't leak out of her mouth slit. :wink:

I no longer give her the serrapeptase she it is another struggle to get it in as well. I have gone to strictly feeding her silk worms and I may try to start breeding them - we'll see how it works out.

 

[baby_geek]

So when I got home from a course last night I called the vets to find out if they had been able to locate Squishy's results - which they had and had faxed them tomy work... of course because I was not at work yesterday

So I came to work early this morning to take a look at the results and some parts are better some parts are worse.

WBC 4.0 (was 5.0) slight decrease
HCT 0.35 (was 0.37) slight decrease
Heterophils 2.48 (was 0.9) x 10E9/L large increase
Lymphocytes 0.92 (was 3.2) large decrease
Monocytes 0.32 (was 0.8) decrease
Basophils 0.28 (was 0.25) slight decrease

WBC low, 25 cell diff - may be inaccurate. Many degenerated wbds present may interfere with accuracy. Thrombocytes clumped, mild polychromasia, thrombocyte numbers are adequate.

So what can we do to increase her WBCs? Is there something I can give her or make for her? Over all she is doing a touch worse I would say - she doesn't seem to be quite as happy as she used to be. She is a little dark most of the time - sleeps quite a bit. Again that could be brumation kicking in or her disease worsening. I'm going to weigh her again tonight and see if there are any changes.

 

[baby_geek]

So I have a question for all the beardie owners out there that have had routine bloodwork done on their beardies (or blood work done at different times of the year). Do you find the differential/values are different when they are trying to brumate vs the summer? Could that be a cause of her WBC values to be changing so drastically right now?

 

[MissT]

I'm sorry the results weren't better.
Did they suggest anything that may have caused it.
Tracie figured out an elixir for Kazi tohelp boost his WBC. It definitely improved his energy levels etc. I can't remember how it was mixed up though and I know it was dependent on the concentrations of the ingredients. It included spirulina, green tea extract and vitamin b12 (although I had to use a vitamin b complex with extra b12 in it).
Tracie also mentioned that WBC mightn't affected by brumation etc so it is a possibility.

 

[baby_geek]

It is all just so frustrating... I work in research and unfortunately I'm the kind of person who needs answers - even if they are not what I want to hear.

I hope it is that she is trying to brumate and come spring time she will be up and bouncing around again. I hate being so 'cruel' and waking her up everyday for meds, fluids and a bath every second day. It would make sense that the blood values would change a bit as the go into brumation as their metabolism slows and a lot of physiological changes take place.

The vet is going to do some more research as she is also stumped as to why her lymphocytes are dropping like flies but her heterophiles are increasing like rabbits... hopefully she will get back to me in the near future. As for now she is continuing on her allopurinol, milk thistle, black cherry juice and fluids. I will continue to make her grumpy every day when I pull her out of her tank, set her up to look at the rain and get her meds.

We will see - I think I am off to do lots of veterinary reptile research...

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am sorry about the white blood cell counts.
The white blood cells most of the time, drop when they are going into brumation or slowing down due to the seasonal changes. Their metabolisms have a tendency to change the white blood cell counts.
I would give extra B vitamins right now to see if you can get her levels up a bit. Poor girl, she may be trying to brumate while fighting the gout right now which is a difficult situation!

How are the uric acid levels doing?

Tracie

 

[baby_geek]

Hi Tracy,

Her uric acid levels the last time we check (end of August) were 155umol/L (2.6mg/dl). We will probably recheck in a month or so. 2.6mg/dl doesn't seem like it is super high by any means - so hopefully she isn't feeling too bad because of the gout.

I wish I lived near the equator where winter never really happens - instead of Canada... it is still sunny on occasion and we keep the house pretty warm but I think the lack of sunlight coming through the living room window sets her into brumation mode. I have 2 household bulbs on her tank keeping the temps cozy and keeping the tank nice and bright (on all sides) so she has no where dark to go. The cool side of her tank is cool as there is only a 40W bulb there - just to keep it a bit brighter.

I'm hoping her altered WBC counts are due to metabolic changes due to the season changing. I'm waiting not so patiently (as per normal me) for the vet to do some more research and checking into things.

Where abouts would I find B vitamins? Would they be at the health food store? Is there a specific form of B vitamins I should try and get? (liquid, tablet, capsule?) I will head out to the store tomorrow to see what I can find as it is too late right now (9pm).

 

[Drache613]

Hello!

Oh the uric acid levels at 2.6mg/dl are perfect now. Congratulations then!
She should not be feeling bad due to the gout now. Is the swelling still present? I hope that it is starting to go down some now!
Hopefully it is just possible brumation trying to set in. She wont be able to fully brumate though, only partial so she can stay on her meds.
Just a nice mix of B vitamins. One that has B12, thiamin are two major ones which should be in the mix. Since she is tired of getting fluids you can get powder or capsule form.

I hope she is doing well!

Tracie

 

[baby_geek]

Hi Tracy,

I was very impressed the last time we did her blood work. We will probably run more in a month or 2 to see how everything is doing. I'm glad the allopurinol is doing so much in terms of her gout. I just wish the swelling would go down - I really don't think it has gone down at all. Maybe it never will go down...

I figure if she goes into a partial brumation that is okay. When I wake her up and give her the meds she stays up for an hour or two. She isn't huge into eating her veggies right now - she will eat a couple of silkies tho'. She is awake for most of the day but is acting lazy - lying around watching the house happenings. She doesn't have a black beard or major stress marks so she can't be feeling that bad.

Okay, so I found a vitamin B complex today... they are liquid filled soft gels so I figured I would use a needle to suck out as much as I needed - it will get mixed in with her other meds.

How many mg/kg am I looking at giving her? This bottle has 30mcg B12, 100mg Thiamine
It also has 100mg vitamin C, 20mg riboflavin, 25mg niacinamide, 5mg B6, 45mcg biotin and 5.5mg pantothenic acid... If there are ingredients in there she can't have then I will pick up a different bottle of Vitamin B (I can always take these myself )

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am not exactly why the swelling has not receded much. Is the area hard or soft on the swollen areas? Sometimes, it can take 6 months to a year for all of the swelling to go down.
I use 10-15mg/kg for supplementing. It is a safe number & a very small amount for them, too.
At least her uric acid levels dropped which is important. Hopefully he kidneys are working better now.
Does she still have a decent appetite right now?
That is good she doesn't have a black beard or seem stressed. It sounds like general laziness of wanting to brumate. You can let her slow down, but you will need to get her up & around!

I hope she is doing well today.

Tracie

 

[baby_geek]

Hi Tracy,

So the B vitamin went in easier than expected. She didn't dislike it as much as some of her other stuff!

The swelling doesn't seem to be going down at all but it also doesn't seem to be bothering her that much. She decided today after her meds/B vitamin/milk thistle/fluid mixture/silkworm chaser that she was full of energy. She was glass dancing for the first time in weeks I realized shortly after it was because she needed to poop so off to the bathtub we went and sure enough... She was more active today in the bath than she has been for the last couple of weeks as well - and very light coloured. She did bask for a bit longer then went to the bright cool side of the tank and is still hanging out there.

I've taken some pictures this morning of her swelling - the soft tissue swelling is soft and pliable. The swollen joints are harder but not bone hard. More like hospital jello hard (for any of you who have had that). She doesn't mind me putting pressure on any of her swollen areas either.

I also noticed she has ripped one of her toenails off in glass dancing today. There is no blood but there is a bit of a hole in the end of her toe. It also doesn't seem to bother her.


This is her ankle - the original one we opened up way back at the beginning.

Her right front fore arm:

And then her left front fore arm and elbow. The elbow is still the most swollen spot on her.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is great the B vitamins went in much better then. I am happy to hear she liked it at least.
That is too bad she tore a toenail off. Hopefully it will grow back though. They are so cute when they glass dance.
It sounds like she is not feeling too bad then if her activity has picked up some then. Does she like her baths then?
She is brumating a little bit right now but that is alright since she is getting her meds & basking some.
The swelling doesn't look too bad, really. It could be much worse. Perhaps, it will go down a little more, over time. That is good the swollen areas are soft & not hard. There could be some fluid retention as well. The joints are where more of the uric acid builds up more so that in the tissue.

I hope she is doing good today!

Tracie

 

[rdoyle]

I hope she get better. Did i miss it do you know what couse the shollen in the legs?

 

[baby_geek]

rdoyle - we know she has gout but we are trying to figure out why her white blood cell numbers are going down.

 

[MissT]

I hope it is just brumation doing that. I know one element of Phoebe's WBC was low... I just cant remember which right now - I want to say lymphocytes but again, I could be making that up and I dont know where I have put her file. She was just out of brumation at the time of her blood test.

How are meds etc going - is she still enjoying the b12? Phoebe started to really dislike the allopurinol so I started making it up with the Karo syrup and she loves it now! Serrapeptase is her ultimate favourite though!

Does Squishy ever give you that look when you feed her - you know the look that says 'where is the rest??' LOL! Phoebe makes me feel terrible but I think she is gradually getting used to the 1 locust per day idea!