switch to sand?

[Seven65]

Do not use reptisand, it is worse than normal playsand. You probably shouldn't have sand period especially if you feed them in their viv. It harbors bacteria. BDs are curious and will often try to eat it or eat it on accident when going after their food. When they eat sand it can very easily get stuck in their digestive system and could kill them. The colour in the red sand will eventually dye your dragon's skin. Not worth the risks involved in my opinion. Tile is the best.

 

[Seven65]

oops double post

 

[Rufus468]

So you see.. there is a lot of controversy... so talk to your own vet and give a couple a try and see for yourself what you like... thanks

 

[Elora]

Perhaps someone that lives in Australia could tell us what the soil is actually like where bearded dragons come from? I dont think that their soil is like sand. its more like red compact dirt.

I use slate tile (non glossy) and both of my bearded dragons are happy

Hmmm.. Yes but you can get red sand.. which is natural coloured from some soil... i recently brought some to mix it with the pure repti-sand and my beardie i LUURVING it lolzzz :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

welll i meant the texture not the color. I think its more like hard ground. not sand

 

[Embee]

welll i meant the texture not the color. I think its more like hard ground. not sand

This thread, and another going on right now, lead me to do some rather extensive research on Inland Australian desert terrain, which wasn't as easy as one would think! :?
What I came up with is this: it's extremely varied: hard pan, clay, scrubland, sub-tropical woodland, rock and yes, some sand. But the sense that the sand is a very thin layer of sand over hard packed earth, that tends to blow about over the top of the "main" terrain, rather than be inches or feet thick. IOW, more like a Savannah, rather than a Sahara type desert. There are some areas of rolling "dune" type sand, but these areas tend to lack the shade and food that dragons need, so they are not known to live on them for any length of time.

I've also been doing some further research on impaction. I found a compelling element about sand/substrate impaction which I thought was worth noting, in that it tends not to be like impaction say, from a feeder too large rather, it can happen VERY gradually, as small grains of sand build up in a dragon's system over weeks, months, perhaps even years. Dragons can take in sand not just by eating feeders, but also by their natural "tasting" of everything, the way in which they sense their environment. By the time they start to show physical signs of distress, dragons are often at a very advanced stage of impaction, which is extremely difficult to treat.

Our girl is on repti-carpet. We'd like to switch to slate at some point. She is a very happy dragon, no "depression" to speak of. She eats well, basks well, and is thriving. She also finds her carpet very useful in scrubbing off sheds! :wink: Of course, she especially likes the area where the digital thermometer stands and is always knocking the darned thing over! :?

The best,
Em

 

[GoFast]

I am going to play devil's advocate on this one (so go ahead and let me have it GoFast)....

All three of our dragons have sand in their enclosures, but only under their caves because they do enjoy digging before they sleep. Their caves sit on top of tiles so their is no danger of them digging the sand out from under the caves so they collapse on top of them. We do not feed them their live feeders in their enclosures, so there is minimal to no risk of impaction from ingesting sand. Their salads are in a bowl on tile away from the sand. And lastly, all three dragons poop in their baths, so the bacteria factor is a non-issue. I have discussed this with our vet as well (who specializes in herps and happens to be one of the best in SoCal). If his recommendation is ever to remove the sand, then I would not question it and remove it, however my dragons are healthy and we are vigilant in ensuring their health.

We don't do it out of "natural habitat". As you stated in your last post, GoFast, my dragons live in glass and wood. Not natural for anything. I do not recommend sand to anyone. But I do defend it's use if it is managed properly and strictly.

There is nothing to argue with here! very level headed logic IMO

 

[garnothegreat]

why not split the tank up half sand and half tile..then your bd can decide what he/she wants to be on, its probably the easiest solution

 

[Neromom39]

I am going to play devil's advocate on this one (so go ahead and let me have it GoFast)....

All three of our dragons have sand in their enclosures, but only under their caves because they do enjoy digging before they sleep. Their caves sit on top of tiles so their is no danger of them digging the sand out from under the caves so they collapse on top of them. We do not feed them their live feeders in their enclosures, so there is minimal to no risk of impaction from ingesting sand. Their salads are in a bowl on tile away from the sand. And lastly, all three dragons poop in their baths, so the bacteria factor is a non-issue. I have discussed this with our vet as well (who specializes in herps and happens to be one of the best in SoCal). If his recommendation is ever to remove the sand, then I would not question it and remove it, however my dragons are healthy and we are vigilant in ensuring their health.

We don't do it out of "natural habitat". As you stated in your last post, GoFast, my dragons live in glass and wood. Not natural for anything. I do not recommend sand to anyone. But I do defend it's use if it is managed properly and strictly.

There is nothing to argue with here! very level headed logic IMO

Thank you, GoFast. You know what the funny thing is? The silly dragons have been "digging" on their tiles before bed :roll: . So the sand just may be eliminated soon only because they are not using it. Go figure.

 

[Tigg]

First things first.... You guys need to clarify "SAND".

If you are talking about actual sand (AKA PLAY SAND) then the main issues here are the sand being ingested... Possible causing impaction, which I will agree is a small risk.... But why would any loving pet owner put their pet at risk?

The only other issue is the bacteria which has been mentioned many times, sand known for harboring all sorts of bacteria, whether your beardie stools in the sand or not, it still exists, and can just as easily infest your pet... I challenge you sand users out there to a fecal test, lets see how many come back with a clean bill of health.


Now... If we are talking about "CalciSand" or "ReptiSand" (WHICH ISN'T SAND AT ALL) It's CALCIUM CARBONATE, is nothing like their natural habitat, and is wrong in soooo many ways!!

Many of you may recognize Calcium Carbonate as the same leading ingredient in a popular antacid that humans frequently consume... Have you ever read the warning labels for us off a pack of Rolaids??

Do not take calcium carbonate as an antacid for more than 2 weeks unless your doctor tells you to.
We are instructed to avoid using this product for longer than 2 weeks unless being monitored by a doctor. Our reptiles are placed on this stuff for months and years at a time. If it isn't safe for us to use for longer than 2 weeks, what make you believe it is safe for your reptile?

The U.S National Library of Medicine and the National Institutes of Health also has instructions for what to do if you accidentally overdose.

In case of overdose, call your local poison control center at 1-800-222-1222. If the victim has collapsed or is not breathing, call local emergency services at 911.

Humans are hundreds, if not thousands of times larger than most reptiles. We have safe handling instructions for calcium carbonate, instructions for limited use of calcium carbonate, and what to do if we overdose on calcium carbonate. How could anyone believe this stuff, which is apparently a risk to humans if ingested more than prescribed, is safe for an animal a fraction of our weight?

One of the most common uses for CC is in antacids. This mineral has the ability to neutralize stomach acids. Neutralizing the stomach acids in humans when they don't feel well is great. As a medication serving this purpose it is wonderful. For reptiles, this is downright dangerous.

As your reptile eats stray food items on the calcium sand, insects in the calcium sand, or randomly licks and consumes the calcium sand, it is also "medicating" itself with an antacid. The more it consumes, the more neutralized the acid in the stomach becomes. In high doses, this can easily lead to an impaction as the reptiles acid would become so neutralized that it would no longer be able to digest any additional calcium sand. The reptiles ability to digest its food adequately can be impaired or can even be halted when excessive amounts have been ingested.

It can also cause constipation. This in itself can be lethal as the body is required to expel the waste and byproducts from the foods consumed. If these are not expelled, toxicity can easily and readily become a serious issue. Toxic waste, once entered into the blood stream, can be fatal.

In excessive doses, calcium carbonate is also noted as causing hypercalcemia. Hypercalcemia is an excessive amount of calcium in the blood. This can lead to muscle weakness, psychological issues, nerve damage, spinal column curvature, and other serious issues.

The dust produced by Calcium Sand can be inhaled. As your reptile stirs the dust up and inhales the dust produced and made airborne, they could begin to experience eye and lung irritation.

The ingestion of calcium sand , coupled with their calcium dish you should be providing as well as the dusting of their feeder insects can easily result in devastating consequences. Don't use this stuff and help educate anyone who tries to tell you otherwise.


Anyone saying they are replicating their natural habitat... You are mistaken.

Australlian desert is not soft sand like the Mojave, or Baja deserts... like others before me have mentioned, they are hard packed sand, and if you did a little research on the behaviours of bearded dragons you would learn they dwell mainly in, and on rock formations.

 

[Neromom39]

First things first.... You guys need to clarify "SAND".

If you are talking about actual sand (AKA PLAY SAND) then the main issues here are the sand being ingested... Possible causing impaction, which I will agree is a small risk.... But why would any loving pet owner put their pet at risk?

The only other issue is the bacteria which has been mentioned many times, sand known for harboring all sorts of bacteria, whether your beardie stools in the sand or not, it still exists, and can just as easily infest your pet... I challenge you sand users out there to a fecal test, lets see how many come back with a clean bill of health.

OK... I am going to defend my use of PLAY SAND only one more time and then I think this will be the last time I put my two cents in regarding this subject. I realize that my view is not that of the majority, however the lack of respect to express it is quite undaunting at times. In any case, I have already met your challenge even before you issued it. Had you chose to read my comments earlier in the post you would have noticed that I do not feed my dragons in their enclosures (their food is no where near the sand) and they do not poop in their enclosures. And unless YOUR enclosure is entirely aseptic (and I work in the biotech industry so I am aware what it takes to acheive aseptic conditions) you cannot eliminate bacteria altogether. To do so would kill your dragon because the chemicals are harsh. And all 3 of my dragons had fecals last month and all are clean. My vet is not opposed to the use of sand as long as it is not Calci-Sand and since he is highly respected in his field (you can view his credentials at http://www.drexotic.com) and has dragons of his own, I value his opinion greatly and I don't believe he would ever put my pets in harms way.

One more thing... I am terribly offended that the use of sand in my dragon's enclosures implies that I am anything but a "loving pet owner".

 

[DylanandFred]

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
:?: :?: I heard sand is bad. :?:
:?: :?: Is it ok? :?: :?: :?: :?:
:?::?: :?: :?:

 

[garnothegreat]

half sand half tile is what i have and my bd loves to sleep in the sand cause its more comfortable than the tile