Stunted "teen mom" dragon trying to lay

[khartley]

I got Lola in April, she was probably just a couple months old, and starved badly, this pic is the day I got her:

So she is approx. 9-10 months old now. She is very stunted, she is smaller than a couple 3-4 month old rescues. She would occasionally go off food and try to starve herself to death, but I'd syringe feed and get her thru it. She has stayed in my bedroom because moving her to a large tank in a different room scared her to death. She's gotten to be a ninja and would occasionally manage to escape from her tank, so I ALWAYS keep the bedroom door closed. However, about 4 weeks ago I get home from work and the door is open, she is out, and in the enclosure with this guy:

I put her back and the next day she passed a bloody poop. She has been eating well ever since, up until about 4 days ago. She stopped eating and has been incredibly restless, constant scratching, surfing, and overall discontent. When feeling her tummy, I could feel several things I would describe as slightly oversized jellybeans. Definitely eggs

I put a mix of sand and potting soil into a large tote and put a heating pad under one side, and her uvb over it. The past For 2 days she dug and dug, then yesterday she gave up, now today back to digging and digging. This is from today, she's in my hand to show how small she is:

I've been doing extra long, extra warm soaks daily for her, she always drinks water at this time too. I mixed calcium and electrolytes in a dropper bottle and give her as much as she'll take once a day (usually about a tsp). I very lightly rub her tummy during her soak, and she doesn't seem like it bothers her.

Sorry for this long post, but I'm extremely worried about her. This is my first experience with egg laying, and her being so small is scaring me. Is there anything else I should be doing? Is it highly likely that I will need to take her in to have them surgically removed? I have not seen her strain at all, and she really hasn't shown any signs of discomfort yet, just been very busy. But the longer they are in her, the bigger they get and the harder it will be for her. Plus she hasn't eaten a thing in over 4 days.

Help

 

[AHBD]

Hi there....just let her dig, that's what she should be doing and a small dragon will have smaller + fewer eggs and not necessarily have complications. Lots of dragons will dig for up to a week before laying, of course you are rightly concerned but as long as she's digging she's doing O.K If she were to suddenly just lay down + become very sick looking you would then take her in as an emergency. Can you post a pic of her lay box ? Is she able to dig a deep cave ? If not she needs more substrate, or you can try this....cut one end off a cardboard box that's the size of a large shoebox and cover her digging area to make a " cave ". You can even do that while she's digging if she isn't making a nice cave. The darkness may help her to feel secure enough + accept it as her nesting site. Oh, and make sure she has some overhead heat, not a lot but it is better to come from above so it's about 90 or so in the tub.

Hopefully she lays and begins to eat soon after...have her favorite food on hand as well as some chicken + squash baby food and whatever other nutritious stuff you used to syringe feed her.

 

[khartley]

Sorry for a late reply. The picture is what her lay box looks like. I have a mercury bulb above the one side, and a heat pad below but turned really really low. I used a mix of potting soil and fine sand, only the heated half is wet and holds shape. She doesn't like the cracker box cave, as you can see today she dug beside it. Still not eating, still digging a while, then basking and resting . She didn't seem to enjoy her warm soak today, and wouldn't drink either, she usually does. Approximately how many eggs would you think a smaller dragon would lay at a time? I can feel 6 at least.

 

[AHBD]

She'd probably lay less than a dozen. I should have mentioned the box should be a taller, about 6-8" so you can pack a lot of the mix in it, she'll feel more like it's a cave. Either that or put more of the mix in the entire tote, pile some about a foot deep on one side and start a cave by hand.

For nutrition/hydration try an eyedropper or syringe with baby food chicken, squash green beans and a bit of extra water . She may refuse food + water now if she's very close to laying.

Are you positive you feel eggs ? Don't poke her belly too much though, I'm just wondering if her behavior is something else. It's also possible that she's not carrying eggs and is just traumatized from having been in the tank with the other dragon and is just trying to hide.

 

[khartley]

Oh, you meant to actually bury the box. I'll change that. Yes, definitely eggs. I don't poke, but just running my finger down her tummy I can feel several lumps that all have the same shape and size. I cared for an impacted dragon and it is definitely not blockage I feel. She was traumatized by the other dragon, when I put her back in her cage she ran into her hide and hid all afternoon. But when I put a dish of insects in front of the hide door, she couldn't help it and had to come out and eat her tasty bugs. She got over the incident fairly quickly. Plus, normally I'd she went off food, she would get thin quickly because she's so small already. She hasn't eaten for five days now and is still looking fat. I will definitely do the baby food today just to give her energy and hydration. I'll supplement it with calcium.

 

[AHBD]

Try a bigger box, like a shoe box turned upside down with one end cut off as an opening, then pile sand around and in it and dig some of it out to start a tunnel for her.

 

[khartley]

She finally laid them. I guess all it took was different substrate. She didn't like the sand/potting soil mix apparently. I soaked one of the eco earth bricks in a mop bucket and let it dry out a bit over night, but in the morning before I woke up she had left her cage and deposited 11 eggs in the very bottom.

Her appetite hasn't been great, I've really been pushing phoenix worms but she'll only eat a couple of anything I offer, so still soaking daily and squash baby food with calcium and jump start mixed in.

Given that she is so young and so small, is it unlikely she will have multiple clutches?

I set up a quick incubator from a Styrofoam cooler and a 15w day bulb. They are in disposable bread loaf pans with eco earth and water in the bottom of the cooler. Humidity is 75% and temp is 86... They have dropped as low as 75 and as high as 90 before I got it dialed in, hopefully that's OK. Should I be using a day bulb continuously, or would a night bulb or ceramic be better? Send like 24/7 daylight would not be a good thing.

 

[AHBD]

That's great, she got them out O.K ! Can you post pics of them ? She may lay another 1-2 clutches, you'll just have to wait + see. Be very careful that she can't get out the tank again + end up with the male....how are they set up so that happened, is her tank on top of his + she fell in ?

As for eating, keep up the baby food but if you can make a slurry of bugs in a blender that you'll use just for that [ not for your family after that ! ] then try to get her to eat as much as possible. Her appetite should return, if it doesn't you'll definitely need to syringe feed at least twice a day.

And were you asking if there should be a white light in the incubator ? A dark colored [ purple ] would be better....you can even get it at Walmart where it might be cheaper than the pet store night light. Years ago I had a home made incubator made from a refrigerator with a 40 watt white bulb but it was positioned under the tubs .....there was no problems with hatching at all.

 

[khartley]

No, they are in separate rooms. She is still in a smaller 40 gallon tank in my bedroom though because the one time I tried to upgrade her to a 55 she hid in the corner for a whole day just scared to death, so I set her tank back up and put her in it and she still tried to starve herself to death over it. So I just have left her be. But she is big enough that she can get out, which doesn't bother me I just always always keep the bedroom door shut no matter what. The bf left it open on accident one time, and she got out and ninja'd her way into his enclosure. I've since taken some extra precaution to keep it from happening again.

She started eating again yesterday, very well actually lol. Yea I was asking about the light, so apparently I should switch that? I have a tin loaf pan around the bulb so that there is no direct light on the eggs, but it is still daylight in there 24/7. I have a incandescent bulb somewhere, I'll go find it. I did notice a couple of the eggs have deflated. From what I read that means they are not fertile? Are there any other external signs for if they are fertile or not? Do they eventually rot or stink? It won't hurt my feelings if they are all infertile, I just can't not try to incubate them. Where its her first clutch, she's so young, and so stunted, I'd say its a good probability that most, if not all, will be infertile. Its been three days, is that too soon to candle them?

Here's a pic of the setup, let me know if you think I should change anything. Thanks for your help!

 

[AHBD]

Glad to hear that she's eating, feed her twice a day with calcium on one feeding a day because she is still a juvenile and needs every bit of nutrition to build herself up. The eggs can be candled now and are not necessarily infertile, you may have a mix. The eggs may be drying up, it's hard to get that coco fiber at the right amount of moisture. It's important to have enough moisture and also it's good if you place the eggs so that at least 1/2 of the egg is visible above the medium at all times. I used vermiculite or a sand/vermiculite mix when I incubated my eggs, here are some pics....notice how they are placed so you can see how much of the egg should be visible....that's how you want them to look. I added a couple interesting hatching pics as well, one coming out with eyes wide open and one egg with twins hatching from each end of the egg.
https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/29937/full
https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/29966/full
https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/30043/full

 

[khartley]

I could not find vermiculite anywhere... Is it specifically for something like plants? I hate to disturb them much... I'll try candling and see what happens. I'll also switch to a night bulb, that should help the humidity too.

Wow, I had no idea twins could hatch from a single egg. I mean it makes sense but never thought about it. Is that rare?

 

[AHBD]

Candle them with the lights off in the room, you should see the little pink circle and/or a tiny network of veins beginning. You'll see that even better after a week. By the way, can you post some closer pics ? Try to keep the eco earth off the eggs so you can see their condition [ denting, mold etc ]

And vermiculite is usually sold at gardening centers, possibly Walmart, K-mart, Lowe's.

 

[AHBD]

How do the eggs look and how is she doing ? Still eating well ?

And I forgot to answer but yes, twins hatching from one egg are pretty rare.

 

[khartley]

She ate a ton today, and I started feeding her twice a day like you suggested, so she got her fill twice today. I ordered some wax worms to try and help her gain weight.

The eggs I really don't know... I'm starting to thing they are probably all infertile, with the exception of maybe two. Most have deflated or shriveled at least a little, despite the humidity maintaining a steady 75% the last 2 days. I just took pictures, and candled them all. Most have a blob of something inside, several have one visible blood vessel, a couple have two or three visible. I'll let you decide, I'm no expert here.

 

[AHBD]

The eggs are big + white and some do look fertile, but they can develop a " blood spot" and still be infertile. In another 2 weeks look to see if small veins are branching out. Now your problem is with the coco fiber.....I used it once and it's not really good, although the eggs did hatch, but it dries out very quickly and a few spots developed mold. Yours needs to have more moisture in the actual coco fiber, the humidity level is not what determines how the eggs will do. The way I set my eggs is I used my thumb to make an imprint for every egg to be placed in so they are half way in , a nice little individual hole for each one. Oh, and your heat coming from above is dehydrating them. You need to get a piece of cardboard to place over each of those baking tins [ I think that's what you're using ] Cut a piece to lay over each one and punch about 10 holes in them. That should help with that problem.

And that's a great sign that she's eating well ! Her little body had to work hard to form all those eggs and that took calcium that she is still needing for her own bone development. What is she eating now ? I would actually avoid waxworms because some dragons will get spoiled and then refuse the other insects....stick with crickets + dubias as well as offering greens like turnip, mustard, collard, dandelion and squash. Maybe offer 2-3 waxworms after she has filled up on the other insects.