Stiff legs, sits on wrists... MBD??

[cmoo]

Hi everyone,
I've had my juvenile beardie for about two and a half weeks. I am noticing that he has some definite stiffness in his back legs, and often stands on his wrists (pic below). He has no issues moving around his cage, and is happily eating Phoenix worms, horn worms, and meal worms. I offer greens daily (dandelion and collard or kale), but he does not really eat them. I dust with a multivitamin 2-3 times a week, but haven't done a calcium dusting because of the Phoebix worms as a staple. He poops at least once a day, often twice, so I don't believe it's impaction. Could this stiffness be a sign of possible MBD?
He's currently housed in a 20 gallon tank. Baking temp is 105 and cooler side is 80. I was advised at the pet store to buy the All Living Things lamp set, which is two dome lamps, one basking and one UVB. I have no info on the specifics of the bulbs, but I'm pretty sure after doing research that he needs better UVB.
Any advice is appreciated!

 

[kyleena29]

It certainly looks like MBD. Make sure your UVB lamp does not have a plastic lens cover. Make sure he can get within 6-8 inches of his UVB, best to place it near his basking light. I would get a reptisun 10.0 (T8). Make sure he gets calcium daily, maybe a little extra. I recommend getting serrapeptase, you can order it here http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?route=product/product&path=60&product_id=399 If he gets worse he will get to the point of not eating, not being able to move so it's good you are catching it before that point. You might want to consider getting him to a vet. MBD affects everything not just the bones (muscles, nerves, etc.) You haven't had him very long, wherever he was before started the MBD. You might want to remove anything he might jump down from as he could break bones easily. I would stop the meal worms, they aren't good for beardies at all cause of their shell. I would dust the phoenix worms for now. Keep an eye out for hard white urates, if there is any just back off the calcium a bit. Do you know how old the UVB is? The T8 needs replacing every 6 months, even if the light works. But you said "dome" lamps... is the UVB coil? If so I would get rid of it and get the reptisun 10.0 T8 tube for your set up.

 

[cmoo]

It certainly looks like MBD. Make sure your UVB lamp does not have a plastic lens cover. Make sure he can get within 6-8 inches of his UVB, best to place it near his basking light. I would get a reptisun 10.0 (T8). Make sure he gets calcium daily, maybe a little extra. I recommend getting serrapeptase, you can order it here http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?route=product/product&path=60&product_id=399 If he gets worse he will get to the point of not eating, not being able to move so it's good you are catching it before that point. You might want to consider getting him to a vet. MBD affects everything not just the bones (muscles, nerves, etc.) You haven't had him very long, wherever he was before started the MBD. You might want to remove anything he might jump down from as he could break bones easily. I would stop the meal worms, they aren't good for beardies at all cause of their shell. I would dust the phoenix worms for now. Keep an eye out for hard white urates, if there is any just back off the calcium a bit. Do you know how old the UVB is? The T8 needs replacing every 6 months, even if the light works. But you said "dome" lamps... is the UVB coil? If so I would get rid of it and get the reptisun 10.0 T8 tube for your set up.

The uvb is a coil, and I have it right next to his basking lamp. He stays under it most of the day, and I take him outside as much as possible, but he probably needs more. I have a reptisun tube coming for the 40 gallon tank that I intended to move him to eventually. Do you think I could safely put the longer tube bulb and good on the 20 gallon tank with a screen lid? It would hang over a bit. If not, i would need to buy a second smaller hood and tube bulb.

He came from petsmart and they said he was there for a bit of time (he was bigger than the rest, approx 4 months old), so I imagine his conditions were less than ideal. I should have known better, but now I love the little bugger.

He wouldn't eat crickets initially, so I supplemented with the meal worms until my shipment of Phoenix worms arrived. I don't intend to give the meal worms long term, but I figured a few were okay since he was still easily pooping.

May I ask what the serrapeptase is for?

 

[kyleena29]

Serrapeptase actually helps them absorb calcium more efficiently as well as help them heal. Silkworms produce it naturally as well as you could just feed him some of those. The bulb would be fine till you move him just make sure he has a place to hide if he needs to get some shade. That's great you take him outside, 1 hr of sun is worth several hours from a UVB. This is one trick I do for mine is I bought a hamster cage (wire type not plastic) and set it in the window sill with the glass open on warm enough days, cover a small part just for shade and let him look outside for a while without having to worry he'll wander off somewhere.

 

[AHBD]

Hi cmoo...your baby is developing MBD as was mentioned. You still have to dust the bugs with calcium + D3. Phoenix worms included. It's misinformation that has been passed around that they don't need dusting. Hopefully with some extra supplements and sunshine he'll bounce back. And a small amount of mealworms are O.K, but only as part of a varied diet.

 

[cmoo]

Thank you everyone for the advice. I'll add the daily calcium dusting back in and order some silkworms or serrapeptase. And he will definitely get the new UVB bulb asap and go outside as much as possible.

Any rough estimate on how long it might take to reverse the MBD symptoms? Just wondering if it typically takes weeks, months, or years...

 

[AHBD]

Every dragon is different....hopefully a few weeks but possibly a couple months. Some dragons improve but don't recover 100% but can still live a healthy + happy life.

 

[kyleena29]

It would probably take months and he may or may not walk like that even after, it all depends on the severity and how much damage was done. It's a very good sign that he is still eating and moving around so I wouldn't worry too much. They do have thinner bones and can't use their muscles as well even though they try to and they can end up injuring themselves. I'm sure he will get better now that he's with you and not at that pet store. It burns me up every time I walk in there and check on the beardies

 

[cmoo]

Thank you. It pains me to see them so poorly cared for in the pet stores as well. I do hope it's not too far along and some good uvb and calcium will help. Our new light should arrive tomorrow, but in the meantime we are outside now getting some rays in the preferred position ?

 

[AHBD]

Excellent ! And he looks like he's soaking it up. Please be careful and keep him low to the ground....with MBD he can fracture MUCH more easily from a fall of any height. Hopefully he's going to recuperate ASAP !

 

[cmoo]

Excellent ! And he looks like he's soaking it up. Please be careful and keep him low to the ground....with MBD he can fracture MUCH more easily from a fall of any height. Hopefully he's going to recuperate ASAP !

Great advice, I will be sure to keep him low. His leash should arrive tomorrow, which will help.

And yes, he was happily soaking up the sun. And then proceeded to poop on me ?

 

[AHBD]

A poo on you, lol, the warmth + excitement in the sun can have that affect. Be warned.!

 

[cmoo]

Our reptisun 10.0 arrived today and he is happily basking! I had him out of the tank to set it up, and as soon as I turned the light on he got so excited and wanted to go back in. It's funny how they know exactly what they need sometimes ?

I have the lights on a timer and he was getting about 13 hours of light a day. I just upped it to 14 so he could get some extra uvb. Is that too much? Or should I do more?

 

[kyleena29]

I have read 12-14 hours of daylight so that's fine. I have mine at 13hrs. So glad you got your bulb in.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

He looks happy out in the sunshine on your head & in his tank too.
They all have various recovery abilities so hopefully he will be able to heal up pretty quickly.
It's hard to determine the extent of the damage but he hasn't gotten too bad yet since he is
still eating & not lethargic. You can definitely halt it & stop it from progressing. You can
reverse some of the damage but he may be more vulnerable to having calcium issues.
I am sure that the new light will help him out also! The Reptisun 10 tube bulb is a good bulb
so he should be getting good exposure. The compact/coil lights really are not very good & do
not emit good enough quality of UVB.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie