Staple Worms

[roboboy542]

Hi, i just got my first bearded dragon a month ago. He's about five months old. I have been feeding him crickets twice a day and 2-3 wax worms every couple days. And i would like to move away from crickets because they jump, escape, smell, and r just generally annoying. i live in canada, so i think dubia roaches aren't an option cuz they r illegal.

So i would like suggestions for a good staple worm to feed daily. i was also thinking i would breed what ever worm sounds like a good option. i have done so research already but it's confusing because i think some types of worms have 2 different names. so i would love any input anyone has and if possible an a accurate picture of the type of worm, just so i know what it looks like.

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

Only staple worms that I can think of are silkworms and Black soldier fly larvae
(calci/pheonixworms)
The hornworm could be a staple if it wasn't for the very high moisture content most likely that causes diarrhea.

I dont have a picture right now but for the black soldier fly larvae just imagine a large maggot. Thats the best way I can describe them.

Superworms and mealworms are treat feeders, they have way too much fat and are usually the result of fatty liver disease.

Most worms are quite fatty so they dont make good staple feeders, if you cant get roaches you may as well try and resolve the problem with the crickets as the smell is most likely due to improper care for them.
I've found that if you get two large 90 quart bins with either no top or a screen top they dont smell as they have enough ventilation and room. In smaller tanks or critter keepers they cant get away from each other which usually means more will die faster, and the container will smell.

The reasons for the two tubs instead of one is that you'll want to separate half into each so if something happens to one you'll still have the other.
Basically if you get 1,000 crickets separate about 500 in each bin. If you get 2,000 crickets separate 1,000 into each bin. And then above that you'll need bigger bins or more bins.

You''ll want to clean out dead crickets once a week most likely, so you may need a 10 gallon of sorts for holding all the crickets in both bins while you clean the tubs out and then once thats done separate half and half into the bins. This will keep everything clean and also lessen the chance of them dying off.

You should look into other feeder roaches as well, theres many out there like the Turkish roach.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Grubs and worms suitable to be a staple (daily food insect)
>> silkworms
>> grape vine catepillars .... I know someone who collects these from his vines and his beardies love them
>> cabbage butterfly catepillars .... I know people who collect these from their vege garden or let their pet dragon vorage in the garden and eat them
>> blow fly gents (but very small so only suitable for very young hatchlings)
and
>> black soldier fly lavae.

Silkworms are dead easy to breed, each moth lays about 400 eggs which can be chilled in the fridge til later if not needed to incubate and hatch right away.

 

[Drache613]

Moved by Moderator from General to Feeding

 

[KeyBlu422]

Phoenix and repti worms are suitable staples. Calci worms and other brands can also be used but I personally wouldn't risk using it as a staple as the calcium content is a bit higher than what is optimal due to the different diet it's fed compared to Phoenix and repti worms. Silkworms can be staple worms too, though they aren't anywhere near available compared to other Feeders. While some disagree, superworms can be used as a staple for ADULT bearded dragons. Hornworms are more treats as they are high in water content and visually appealing to beardies but they don't have much nutritional value compared to Other Feeders. mealworms are an occasional as their chitin is Harder to digest than a superworms(not to mention they're so much smaller and more lethargic than superworms). Giant mealworms are a complete waste(are made sterile at the cost of a larger size, basically a normal mealworm given something to increase its size and delay pupation, some say they're even harder than normal mealworms ; if you're thinking about giant mealworms, just go for superworms). Butterworms aren't really a staple worthy feeder either. Wax worms are definitely treats(but can help with fattening up an underweight dragon). I'm Starting to breed superworms myself as my dragon and wild birds love them, and I'm sure other animals do too.

 

[KeyBlu422]

Also, Venus, the fat of mealworms(tenebrio molitor) and superworms aren't that far off of Phoenix worms and other BSFL. So, yet another reason as to why superworms(zophobas morio) can be used as a staple feeder for adult dragons(aside from the experience of users on here and the companies that approve of them as staples such as Josh's frogs.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Also, Venus, the fat of mealworms(tenebrio molitor) and superworms aren't that far off of Phoenix worms and other BSFL. So, yet another reason as to why superworms(zophobas morio) can be used as a staple feeder for adult dragons(aside from the experience of users on here and the companies that approve of them as staples such as Josh's frogs.

The main hazard with supers is their very hard and DIFFICULT to digest exoskeleton ==> impaction hazard if used as a staple feeder.
I and most keepers / breeders I know of DO NOT recommend supers as a staple feeder for any dragon, OK ONLY as a treat.

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

Superworms have caused me a great deal of trouble, when I first got Venus and Saturn for the first month I gave them crickets, and then I learned about superworms and decided to give them both, then went to only superworms. Which then caused them both to ignore any feeder I gave them, including salads. They only wanted superworms and weren't having any other feeders no matter what I tried. It took about 4-5 months I believe to get them off of it. In total they were on superworms for about 10 months or so of their life.
Luckily Saturn loves his veggies once I got him off of it along with other feeders. Venus I still struggle with, not so much the bugs but the veggies are a big struggle. I was surprised yesterday that she even took some collard greens from my hand, as she usually ignores anything like that.

 

[roboboy542]

Thanks so much for all the replies. again, because i believe some types of worms have multiple different names, could you clarify if any of these are the same:

-phoniex
-silk
-repti
-calcium

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

Pheonixworms, calciworms, reptiworms, nutrigrubs, are all the same type of bug being the black soldier fly larvae, its just their branded names.

 

[roboboy542]

So which do u think would be better to feed daily, black soldier or silk?

 

[CooperDragon]

The BSFL are much cheaper and easier to get year round than silks. They are very small though so they aren't really practical to use on their own. If a lot of them are offered at once they can sometimes go unchewed and not be digested fully. Silkworms are a good healthy feeder but they are available seasonally (unless you start hatching and raising your own). I try to have some on hand when they are available though. Hornworms are also a good worm to add to the rotation but they can get quite large in a hurry so are better suited for adult dragons.

 

[KeyBlu422]

The different BSFL are the same species but it's the diet they're fed. The diet their fed differs with companies which results in different nutritional values. So, reptiworms and Phoenix worms are the best BSFL as their nutritional value is spot on, unlike Calci worm for example which contain slightly more calcium then what is recommended. About the superworms, I'd understand why breeders/keepers would not do that if they had other feeders on hand like Dubia roaches which, I admit would use instead of superworms and crickets. I wasn't saying theyre the best(as they clearly aren't), but they are still a choice and, assuming a beardy is receiving proper temperatures, properly digesting with minimal to no shell, and isn't being picky(which mine definitely isn't), can make a feeder that beardies, wild birds, and other animals that eat supers love you. They're also easier to breed than say BSFL.

 

[kingofnobbys]

The BSFL are much cheaper and easier to get year round than silks. They are very small though so they aren't really practical to use on their own. If a lot of them are offered at once they can sometimes go unchewed and not be digested fully. Silkworms are a good healthy feeder but they are available seasonally (unless you start hatching and raising your own). I try to have some on hand when they are available though. Hornworms are also a good worm to add to the rotation but they can get quite large in a hurry so are better suited for adult dragons.

This is why I let some of my silks become moths , PLUS THE FACT commercial insect labs want $1 each for silkworms !!! (cheaper to buy on GUMTREE , and often can get a few hundred for $20) .
I collect the eggs to keep these in airtight glass sample bottles or ziplock bags in the refrigerator in the butter compartment (which I set about 7 degC).
I can then take some eggs out (mine are laid on paper toweling) and hatch a few hundred at a time as I need them, a month after hatching they are getting about mealworm size and perfect size for hatchlings.
This way I have silkworms available year round , and my only real costs are chow or fresh mulberry leaves (which I buy in bulk (200 - 300 leaves per batch and keep in the crisper).
I find I have more success using fresh mulberry leaves to raise them on , have also used blanched / frozen and then thawed mulberry leaves , and of cause , silkworm chow too.
If you find you have an excess of silkworms they can be blanched and then frozen for use later.