Somewhat Lethargic

[mpinsky]

I know some topics on legthargic beardies have been posted, but none of them seem to be in the same area as mine.

My beardie is a five year-old male sunburst/sandfire coloration mix (he's a real pretty boy). However, ever since he reached adulthood, he's gotten real lethargic and doesn't chase after his crickets and more just waits for them.

He is in a 50-gallon tank with a 150-watt white-light bulb. It gets about 80-95 degrees F in the cage, though hotter on his basking rock. We feed him large crickets (2 dozen every two weeks in the summer months and 1 dozen every month in the winter months) and fresh fruits and vegetables (every day). It gets very cold in the winter time here, so I kind of goes into "hibernation mode" during the colder months, which I can understand as his metabolism slows down. He defecates on time, as well as urinates, though sometimes getting him to drink water can be a bit of a hassle (once he gets going with the spray bottle, he'll keep going). We also soak him in warm water in the sink so he can swim around about once every month and half, which he seems to enjoy. He's pretty active when he's out of the cage during the summer months, and he's not limp when I hold him, however, once he is in the cage, he gets very lethargic. I heard it is normal for them to get very placid in their adult years and I'm not sure if something is wrong or if this is just his personality.

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[Jiffy]

HI.
What kind of uv light do you have for your beardie?
Depending on what you are meaning by lethargic. If you just mean lazy, that could be normal. If he acts limp and listless, then there could be a problen. If your setup is ok, it could be that it is just the personality of your beardie. My beardie Waffle is a lazy lazy boy, but if I take him out of his viv, he will not sit still.

 

[peera]

Adults do tend to be pretty lazy, and it gets worse the older they get. Offhand, I'd say you should be upping his food intake to 30-50 feeders a week, and baths more like once a week, it makes it easier to keep them hydrated. If he's eating more, he'll probably have more energy, just like a person. Have you tried worms instead of crickets so he doesn't have to chase them down if he doesn't want to?

 

[diamc]

Hi, what type of thermometer are you using to check the temps? You need to know the exact temp of his basking area.

Adults can have as many as 30 large feeders (like superworms) and 50 small feeders (like crickets) a week. Does he not want to eat that many or are you only offering "2 dozen every two weeks in the summer months and 1 dozen every month in the winter months"? To make them easier for him to catch, you can remove the back legs of the crickets or put a few in a ziploc bag & place in the frig for a few minutes. Our beardies don't chase the crickets as much as they did when they were younger but will catch them when either of those ways to slow them down are used.

Lethargy quite often, can be caused by dehydration. If he drinks a lot when you mist him, I suggest that you give him more frequent baths and since he enjoys the baths so much, I would definitely do it more than once every 1 1/2 months. Misting is a good idea but it doesn't totally hydrate them. Even during brumation, a weekly soaking is a good idea. All our adults get baths at least 3 to 4 times a wk and I always notice their activity level increasing after the bath.

Just curious, what fruits and veggies do you feed him? Does he eat it daily? Please fill us in on the UVB you're using and also, how old is the bulb & how far away is it from your beardie? Are you using calcium & vitamin supplements, if so, how often?

Our adults range in age from 1 1/2 yrs to 6 yrs and they are all very active in their tanks during the day. Last yr, three of them semi-brumated by not eating quite as much as usual and going to bed a little earlier, but I wouldn't have referred to any of them as lethargic. Has your beardie lost any weight? I do understand why you're concerned and if you can fill us in on the unanswered questions, it may help us figure out what is going on. thanks :wink:

 

[mpinsky]

The bulb is a ZooMed, or ReptiSun, I believe, 100 V, and it's due for changing by next month. It is on a timer, which is adjusted to the summer and winter months (since he brumates around early December, the timer adds time and decreases time depending on that). Currently, the thermometer I'm using is built into the tank, and seems to be pretty accurate when I compared it to one of my dad's electronic ones (of course, the electronic one is rather large and is much more accurate). The bulb is a few inches away from the tank because it is getting older, though once there is a new one, it is taken farther away from the tank.

My mom tried feeding him waxworms and mealworms when he was younger, though I immediately said no since the could become addicted to them. Right now, he's going through brumation at the moment, so he's not eating as much as he normally does, though in the summer months, he stuffs himself.

While his feces look normal and seem to be of the right consistanty, they smell terrible when they're fresh. I've heard mixed things about this. I've heard that smell is normal and also heard that it means parisites. They don't smell any different than before when he reached adulthood (they are much bigger after all), though I'm trying to get my parents to bring a sample to the nearest vet that specilizes in herps, with no success. I'm bathing him again tomorrow to get him to defecate before brumation to reduce bateria and the like, but he seems a bit reluctant.

His fruits and veggies usually consist of spinanch (which tends to make his feces a little greener than usual), tomatoes, grapes, and sometimes oranges (though this is usually a treat because I think the acid may be a little much). Sometimes I give him a bit of shredded carrots, though he only eats the spinanch and fruits if I hand feed him (though that might be because he's a spoiled little brat). He eats the oranges without any prompting (watch out! I've nearly gotten fingers bitten off that way!) I haven't tried anything like apples because I'm afraid he may choke on the harder stuff.

The basking area is somewhere around the ranges of 100-105 degrees F of last measurement with the electronic thermometer, and he ususally uses it when he's not brumating. His subtrate is unbleached sifted playsand, which is changed every three to five months.

He hasn't lost any weight and is not limp when I hold him.

I'm currently at college on break, so my father's been taking care of his when I'm not home, so I'll be sure to foward this information to him.

 

[peera]

Wow, ok, all of those fruits and veggies are bad for him, once a week foods if ever. Check out http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html for better salad staples. There are other better worm options than mealies and waxies out there (good for you for stopping your mom feeding those)- hornworms, silkworms, and supers (They also sell these as "giant or king mealworms" although they're a seperate species) are all perfectly fine staple live feeders for an adult and don't carry as many parasites as crickets. Oh, and dubia roaches! (I know the knee-jerk reaction is "NO!", but they can't fly or climb and even if you do get an escapie they can't breed in your house because it's not warm enough.)

You can take a fecal to a regular vet, just don't let them medicate him.

When you say the light is a few inches away from the tank, how far do you mean? It should be within 6-10 of him.

 

[diamc]

Hi again, it sounds like you're just using a basking bulb, rather than a UVB light. Are you using 2 bulbs, 1 basking & 1 UVB? If 2, is the one that doesn't produce heat, look like a coil, compact or long fluorescent bulb?

Not sure what you meant by the thermometer being built into the tank. Is it a type of stick on thermometer?

Here's a site that shows the best foods to feed: http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html Spinach is not a good green to feed. As you will notice on that site, it is high in vit. A (67 IU/g), high in oxalates (19:1 ox:ca), goitrogens. There are much more beneficial greens to feed like collards, mustard, escarole, endive, dandelion. Citrus and tomatoes aren't really good for them either. So, the smelly poo could be from what you have been feeding him although it would be a good idea to have a fecal check done and even a regular vet could do that for you. Are you dusting the live food with calcium and vitamins, if so, how often?

Edit: Peera, I guess we posted at the same time.

 

[mpinsky]

Wow. Thank god I'm on this forum! The books I've been reading say to feed spinach. I'm glad you guys stopped me though! But dandilions, like the kind you find in your backyard? I'm not quite sure if I'm comfortable feeding him things found in the yard even after washing them really well. Which part of the dandilion? *wonders if she has to pick through some of the salad mixes to find dandilion and hoard it away for her beardie*

So I can continue with the grapes and carrots occassionally?

I'll see if I can get the pet store to order the superworms, though since he's brumating, he's not eating much of anything at the moment.

I used to have a second one with a lower UV power on it, but the holder broke and I'm in the process of repairing it. The current bulb is about 6 inches away.

The thermometer is a round one, actually with a stick meter on it. It's not a stick on as far as I can tell, but actually molded into the glass. I still make the inital readings with my dad's large electronic ones until I can afford a nice one that isn't so bulky.

I don't know about my parents, but I dust the crickets. As I said, I cannot say the same for my dad who takes care of them when I'm gone. Unfortunately, I cannot take my beardie to college with me.

 

[diamc]

We're glad you found us too. :wink:

If you don't use pesticides, you actually can pick some dandelions from your yard, then rinse it real well. I pick some in the spring & summer. Once in a while, I can find it in our grocery store. They can eat the leaves and the yellow flower. Mine only like the leaves. Yes, you can continue feeding the grapes & carrots occasionally and mixed with some staple greens. Since he is an adult, his live food should be dusted with calcium with D3, phosphorus-free 3 days a wk and with vitamins, 1 to 2 days a wk.

So, you're only using one bulb then? Are you sure it isn't a mercury vapor bulb? Do you happen to have the box it came in? I'll bet it's just a basking bulb, is it a white or colored bulb? It sounds like you need to get a strip fluorescent Repti-Sun 10.0 and holder for it. Here's a site that has the bulbs at a very reasonable price: http://www.petmountain.com/product/bulbs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-high-output-uvb-bulb.html

The only 2 ways to get an accurate temp reading are with either a temperature gun (perhaps what your dad has) or a digital thermometer with a long wire & probe end. The round gauges aren't accurate and can be as much as 20 degrees off.

 

[mpinsky]

Okay, I just checked the bulb this morning. I no longer have the box, unfortunately. Though on it, it says "All Living Things Bulb" 120V, 150 watt. It is a white bulb and not colored in any way. I'll see what I can do about changing the bulb, but my parents are home and do not wish for me to spend anymore money on him. I still have the calcium dusting powder for the crickets and I do have some supplements for the water, though I haven't used them in a while. Should I start using them again? Should I go back to gut-loading my crickets as well like I did when he was a baby?

Also, I forgot to mention that when I do bathe him, he's active once he's in the water, but once he's in his viv again, he just likes to sun himself. I think the problem in part is also that he's lazy.

 

[peera]

Ok, that's not a UVB bulb at all. He needs the ReptiSun tube. There's no point in doing the extra calcium right now, he can't absorb it if he's not getting UVB. Your parents may not want to spend money on him right now, but they're going to spend a heck of a lot more when he gets MBD. Not if, WHEN. I really cannot stress how important this is. Without UVB he is going to get soft bones and be in a lot of pain and eventually die, and it's easier to fix the earlier it's caught.
Gutloading crickets is always a good idea, they're pretty much like feeding your dragon nothing if you don't.

 

[mpinsky]

Okay. I just got the 10.0 ReptiGlo UVB. I haven't heard bad things about the ReptiGlo and could not find the ReptiSun. I had to get a holder from HomeDepot as the reptile ones were way past my budget range. It seems to hold it in just fine. Is there any difference between the ReptiSun and ReptiGlo?

Edit: Returned the ReptiGlo after reading that it does not give off as much UVB as ReptiSun. I'm ordering the light offline. Anyone know how long the supplier takes to ship?

 

[mpinsky]

Good news!

I just installed the ReptiSun in his cage as soon as I got it in today, and already, Shenron seems much more active! Normally he just lays there, but he's actually been moving around and switching positions. Is it alright if the bulb only covers half the cage while the basking bulb covers the other half? However, now I can't seem to get his basking area to anymore than 78 degrees F. Could this be a case of the basking light getting old?

Thanks!