Some questions(don't LoL)

[SeniorD]

So, I use to think you could keep bearded dragons together based on some article I have read. After I found out(edit* that you CAN'T) I started thinking,

People say you can't keep Betta fish together because of their aggression. I myself did a lot of research and found out that it all depends on how the fish are bred and what offspring you choose to breed. To get less aggressive Betta fish you breed the calmest ones that show less aggression. I had myself 3 males and 10 females in one 35 gallon tank. I bred my own fish successfully and raised them to a full grown age(4-5 months). I know the brain of fish and reptiles are not similar at all.

My question is though, if you take that same breeding concept would it work with Bearded dragons? Can you chose the most docile dragons breed them and keep doing that down the lines?

I know I always see breeders keeping the dragons together as babies and another way Betta breeders get the calm fish that they want they leave the mother in the breeding tank with the male. Either way you have to make sure the situations right for the safety of female, a lot of foliage for her to hide. Well anyway when I bred my fish I did this, I left my female in with the male and I did notice that the female had more "motherly instincts" when I did this, she would help collect the eggs and put them back in the nest. Usually they eat them. Now a lot of Betta breeders don't agree because they don't want to take the risk. And I agree too. If you don't have the time to devote to keep an eye on your fish then I wouldn't do it. But I was with my fish most of the time aside from when I was asleep. In my opinion it is worth the risk to have a Betta fish that are calm.

Now with Bearded dragons that's a different story. It may sound messed up but I wouldn't really want to risk my dragons life like that.

BUT lets say you bred two sets of docile dragons. You watched the clutch and found more calm pairs. Would that work like it does with Betta fish.

 

[brittani299]

That is a very interesting concept. I have a betta how lives with a bunch of other fish and he is super cool with it. I know that some people leave there beardies together. It would be interesting to find out

 

[SeniorD]

Yeah, it all depends on if someone would risk it to find out. I saw some pictures though that someone showed me in another thread and no eff that. It would be nice though. It would be like survival of the fittest but you decide who is fit enough. Which would be the calm, easy going ones BUT who knows. That nature could be so deeply ingrained that it could come out at any moment in any batch of clutches.

 

[RuselBro]

Idk, that just seem's like the Actual attitude of the Beardie, but an attitude isn't really a Trait/gene that could get passed on when breeding. Sooo.

 

[SeniorD]

Idk, that just seem's like the Actual attitude of the Beardie, but an attitude isn't really a Trait/gene that could get passed on when breeding. Sooo.

Well actually it's more like a behavior trait. If it was an attitude situation then it would depend on each individual dragon. Then only people with jerk dragons would have the problem of keeping them together. You could then just get two dragons who didn't have the aggressive "attitude" and put them together. So I'm definitely going to say it's a behavioral trait that makes them aggressive.

Survival of the fittest right?

Well if their not in that situation why wouldn't you be able to selectively breed only calm non-aggressive dragons.

I'm no Bearded dragon breeder, I was just curious with my past experience in breeding betta fish. Another "Aggressive" animal. Like I said though, I know fish and reptiles have different brains and it may not be as easy to breed that trait out.

 

[1968dart]

Go to bloodbank Dragons and watch his videos he houses dragons together all the time. And yes it all dependson the individual dragon. I house my male and female together from may till there done burmating and they loved eachother never any agrestion but onece the mateing season for them comes around then I split them up. Two females can also be housed together. But the best thing to do to ensure the animals are healthy is keep them seperate but where's the fun in that.

 

[RuselBro]

Well the basic Bearded Dragon behavior is calm and nice when in the correct environment. CB Beardies already have a Behavior Trait of being calm and docile as they are, but just because 1 beardie and calmer, nicer, ect than other does not mean that's a Behavioral Trait, that would be the Attitude of that beardie. Ton's of Nice, Calm, Docile Beardies are bred together, and their offspring bred, but that doesn't mean you will come out with a Line of Beardies that is what you're talking about. It all depend's on the Attitude and Environmental Factor's of that Beardie.

 

[RuselBro]

And the fact is, it does depend on the Individual Beard Dragon's use choose to Breed together.
And for the actual Behavior of a;; Bearded Dragon's as a whole, the "Set" Behavior/Instinct's is controlled by Gene's in their DNA that tell them to be that way. Like Basically Hypo's, Tran's and Leather Back's. It's in the Gene's of their parent's passed on to them to be the way they are, and even then you end up with Het Hypo, ect. So in Order to change the actual Behavior/Instinct's of a Bearded Dragon you would have to wait for a Mutation to occur that show's the Beardie is Nicer, Calmer, but even then how would you really know, because it also fall's down to the individual attitude of the beardie and the Environmental Factor's.
Gotta love Science and Physiology and Psychology and everything else. Lol

But if anyone has any Scientific proof to what I'm saying is incorrect than by all means let me know.
That wasn't my opinion up there, that was mostly Science fact from research Psychology.

 

[SeniorD]

And the fact is, it does depend on the Individual Beard Dragon's use choose to Breed together.
And for the actual Behavior of a;; Bearded Dragon's as a whole, the "Set" Behavior/Instinct's is controlled by Gene's in their DNA that tell them to be that way. Like Basically Hypo's, Tran's and Leather Back's. It's in the Gene's of their parent's passed on to them to be the way they are, and even then you end up with Het Hypo, ect. So in Order to change the actual Behavior/Instinct's of a Bearded Dragon you would have to wait for a Mutation to occur that show's the Beardie is Nicer, Calmer, but even then how would you really know, because it also fall's down to the individual attitude of the beardie and the Environmental Factor's.
Gotta love Science and Physiology and Psychology and everything else. Lol

But if anyone has any Scientific proof to what I'm saying is incorrect than by all means let me know.
That wasn't my opinion up there, that was mostly Science fact from research Psychology.

Haha if that was science then maybe you should go back. I'm sorry but this, "Idk, that just seem's like the Actual attitude of the Beardie, but an attitude isn't really a Trait/gene that could get passed on when breeding. Sooo." is not "science". And yes, an attitude can get passed down, then it can also be suppressed too. If you really did do research before making your post, you did an awful job at it.

And like you said right here, "the "Set" Behavior/Instinct's is controlled by Gene's in their DNA" Their behavior is based on their DNA and gene's NOT their "Attitudes". Attitude is based on behavior but if you're trying to change the behavior then I guess your changing the attitude too, BY taking the time to observe them, If the dragon has an aggressive NATURE then you wouldn't want to choose that one.

And I'm sorry but their behavior change is not a mutation. The different colored morphs, THOSE are mutations in a dragon, shoot a 5th leg would be a mutation. Not their behavior. I'm just saying, you can selectively breed out behavior. You're saying that it's their attitude, well either way you can breed it out. Attitude or behavior because attitude is determined by behavior.

 

[RuselBro]

I let you think what you want, I'm not trying to argue on here, but attitude, behavior, talking about using the calmest non-aggressive Dragon's. There are so many Environmental Factor's that it's not even funny.

You said "Their behavior is based on their DNA and gene's NOT their "Attitudes". Attitude is based on behavior but if you're trying to change the behavior then I guess your changing the attitude too, BY taking the time to observe them, If the dragon has an aggressive NATURE then you wouldn't want to choose that one."

I'm saying it is that ATTITUDE of that Dragon and Environmental Factor's which make it Calm or Aggressive. Bearded's actual behavior and instinct's are to be solitary, it's in their gene's. Just because you have 2 that are ok being housed together does not mean that their actual behavior is different and been changed to be a Colony reptile, it is that individual attitude.

Just found this on a site- "copy and pasted"

There is, in fact, an entire field dedicated to the study of genetic personality traits and behavior; this field is known as behavioral genetics. Scientists in this field combine a study of genetics, psychology, and ethnology to study behavior trends in various populations of humans and animals. As the mysteries of the human genome are unraveled, this field of study is rapidly expanding.

When looking at genetic influences on personality, it is important to remember that genes alone are not responsible. In the first place, genetic personality traits are polygenic, which means that they involve multiple genes, not a single gene. Therefore, study of these traits is extremely complex, since scientists still do not fully understand how these genes interact with each other, let alone how they interact with other genes. In addition, environmental influences can have a major impact on personality, although these influences may interplay with someone's genes.

People who study genetic personality traits look at large populations in an attempt to identify shared characteristics. This is where ethnography is important, as scientists want to be sure that they are getting an accurate sample, to ensure that their work is valid. Some studies have also been extremely involved, lasting for many years in an attempt to look at multiple generations and environments. Study of animals has revealed numerous personality traits which are clearly genetic, as they may be species-specific adaptations to unique environments.

 

[SeniorD]

I let you think what you want, I'm not trying to argue on here, but attitude, behavior, talking about using the calmest non-aggressive Dragon's. There are so many Environmental Factor's that it's not even funny.

You said "Their behavior is based on their DNA and gene's NOT their "Attitudes". Attitude is based on behavior but if you're trying to change the behavior then I guess your changing the attitude too, BY taking the time to observe them, If the dragon has an aggressive NATURE then you wouldn't want to choose that one."

I'm saying it is that ATTITUDE of that Dragon and Environmental Factor's which make it Calm or Aggressive. Bearded's actual behavior and instinct's are to be solitary, it's in their gene's. Just because you have 2 that are ok being housed together does not mean that their actual behavior is different and been changed to be a Colony reptile, it is that individual attitude.

Attitude is based off of behavior. So yes, if a dragon is in a harsh environment then it most likely will be miserable. I'm not disputing that. You're trying to tell me attitude is different than behavior and that's not true. They go hand in hand. So when you observe the dragons, you know kind of like they explain in you're "copy/pasted article" you can then choose the calmest one. I'm not saying there is a guarantee that there is going to be one that's perfectly calm and non-aggressive at all. You can compare them to the most aggressive ones though and go from there.

When you wrote this, "Idk, that just seem's like the Actual attitude of the Beardie, but an attitude isn't really a Trait/gene that could get passed on when breeding. Sooo." That was wrong, if "Attitude" is based off of behavior, then you can breed it out because behaviors are traits. Yes those traits may still lay dormant in the brain of the animal but it still is going to be a start on breeding it out.

"People who study genetic personality traits look at large populations in an attempt to identify shared characteristics."
Hmmm seems to me as though they are saying you should observe the group of animals/people to identify shared characteristics(those can be behavioral traits.(i.e. "Attitude"))

"Study of animals has revealed numerous personality traits which are clearly genetic, as they may be species-specific adaptations to unique environments."
Okay, so if I was a bearded dragon in the wild and it was survival of the fittest, YES, I would be aggressive. Well breeders are not doing this in the wild are they? So why wouldn't you be able to say who is fittest that the calmest one gets to mate and survive. I've seen videos of males dragons mounting the female without biting at her or dragging her around. So in my opinion that is a good way to start the process, choose a male dragon like that. I'm not saying it's going to work, it is just an idea I had with my experience breeding Betta fish, another creature with an attitude problem. It worked for me then, I had a tank with 3 males and 10 females. Yeah if I suddenly stopped feeding them and taking care of them I'm sure they all would get aggressive really fast. As of right now they are fine, the 3 males clump up together in the tank and follow each other.

 

[1968dart]

I think what your searching for is to add the mysterious indentation to the back of the skull of the dragon that will keep it calm and docile. I watched a documentary on this called Django. It stared such actors like Loenardo decaprio and Jamie Fox. If you watch it there is a seen where Leonardo talks about it at a dinner table. It will explain the whole thing.
Cheers :lol:

 

[ChiefsDaddy]

Attitude CAN be passed down from the parents, but that is not everything, and it is certainly not genetic. The aggression and dominance of dragons is not something you will ever get rid of. It is pure animal instinct, and just "hard-wired" into them. It is part of the reptilian brain, which all animals, including humans have. It is the core part of the brain that controls survival instinct and involuntary actions, like breathing. What sets humans and other mammals apart is the layers outside the reptilian brain - the limbic system and the cerebral cortex. These are the parts of the brain that helps us form relationships, and feel love and empathy for our fellow man. Reptiles simply lack these parts of the brain.

That being said, if you bred two docile dragons, you might get more docile offspring, but that does not remove their dominance-based attitude that has been instilled into them by evolution for thousands of years. This is similar to how dragons will brumate, even if you keep their viv at summer temps year round. You are not going to change their behavior.

There are many other environmental factors that contribute to attitude. One HUGE factor is incubation temperature. The higher them incubation temps, the more likely the dragon will be aggressive. This is more of a factor than the attitude of the parents. The amount of dragons you house together is also a factor. I incubate at 80 degrees, and only house 3 babies to a bin, and I have amazing results as far as behavior goes. Even with all of this, you will still get one or two a-holes that are just very defensive and territorial.

Also, I just want to correct one of the topics of the discussion. The reason not to house dragons together is not just their aggression or the fact they may fight. Bearded Dragons are dominance-based animals, and even if they seem to be docile and be OK with eachother, the WILL dominate eachother, and at least one of the dragons will suffer. The dominant dragon will take the prime basking spot, the most food, etc., and the dominated dragon will suffer because of it. This is the factor that most people forget about and don't realize, because their dragons don't appear to be causing eachother any harm and appear to be cohabitating fine. But this dominance could be much more damaging to the dragon than actual aggression.

 

[SeniorD]

I didn't think you would be able to completely remove the behavior. I don't know if I stated this earlier but after I watched my male/female mate I went on youtube to see others to make sure what I saw was normal. My male grabbed her pretty aggressively and drug her around until he found a good position but in this video the male just hopped on top of the female he didn't bite on her at all. He just had a hold of her. I know that was just the one time but I think that was a drastic change in behavior then what my guy showed.

I just assumed you might be able to get a line where the dragons didn't care about having cage mates but it was just a thought based off of me breeding a completely different animal.

 

[ChiefsDaddy]

The biting is perfectly normal. Nothing to worry about. It's just how they get into proper position.