Soil/Sand Substrate

[FourNoah]

Before anyone complains that this is not a 'good idea' or anything of the sorts...i am already set on this style of substrate and am just looking for a little help, not any condescending comments.
Basically i want to do a 60/40 (or whatever is better really) mix of sand and topsoil. But i have heard that to retain the proper amount of moisture my substrate would need to be kept slightly wet, and i have a problem with that. For my cage is completely wooden and if i were to keep the soil wet the wood would absorb the moisture and crack and fall apart. I was wondering if there was a way for me to add to my cage to make it slightly 'water proof' because the bottom is wooden as well. Any ideas are welcome

 

[Taterbug]

Can you fit a bin or liner of some sort into the cage? You could build an acrylic pan Into the bottom and seal it with silicone. Even sealed wood, unless there is a barrier, will have problems with moisture long term.

Look into the monitor forums, they provide deep soil based substrates. Some of the other reptile forums might be a better resource for loose substrates, if as you say you are going that way. They might also have input on mixes, as far as ratio or ingredients. What size cage do you have?

 

[icelore]

Seems like keeping your substrate moist is going to make the humidity in your viv way higher then what is healthy for a beardie.

 

[BrianB]

I suggest offering a good sized Rubbermaid / Sterilite style box filled with the sand/soil if you want your dragon to be able to dig. It can be used as a lay box if you have girl, too.

Remember, you need to change loose substrates every 3 months to prevent build up of harmful bacteria. That's a bit of a pain in the behind.

Keeping a dragon on a sand or sand/soil substrate isn't necessarily bad, if husbandry is optimal and if you feed OFF of the substrate.

Here's an X-ray of my beardie, Cho. She'll be 13 in June. She was kept on washed playsand for the last five or six years, but fed off of the substrate. You can see the amount of sand in her digestive tract very clearly in this X-ray. It's passing through, so it's not causing any issues. However, there's no need for that stuff to be in there in the first place.

So, make sure to feed on a platform off the sand or on a large dish of some kind if you use any loose substrate.

Now, as to the "if husbandry is optimal" point. You don't know that you can water seal your enclosure, and you're asking about putting a bearded dragon on a moist substrate, which will raise humidity levels. Those two things make me suspect that you may not have a lot of husbandry experience yet. So, no, I don't think you should be keeping your dragon on sand or sandy soil. It's simply not necessary. A lay box/digging box? Sure. The whole substrate? Bad move, IMO.

 

[jarich]

On the contrary, its a very good idea. Let me see if I can answer a few of the points here.

You can seal your wood a few different ways. Probably the easiest is to get some boat varnish/marine varnish and just spread it over the wood like you would paint. Its fairly thick but goes on with a brush. Once that is on, it dries totally waterproof and seals completely, so your soil wont be an issue. You can also line the wood with FRP, which is a plastic sheeting essentially. Its quite thin, so easy to cut. Then you just seal the corners with silicone.

Its quite simple to keep the humidity at normal levels with a soil substrate, and it only needs to be kept moist, not wet. All the good bacteria, nematodes, etc need moisture to survive, so allowing your soil to dry out will kill these good things off and leave you prone to anaerobic bacteria and fungus. Having vents will allow you to keep your soil moist but not raise the humidity of your enclosure much. Also, its important to understand that these animals should not be kept in extremely low humidity environments (15% or less). They can and do often get dehydrated by extremely low humidity environments, and that is often where impaction becomes a problem.

No, you do not want to change out the substrate every three months with soil. Every couple of years is fine. The benefit of a bio active substrate is that the inhabitants of the soil cycle the wastes for you. Simply remove the urates leftover, as that will be about all that is left with a healthy bio active substrate.

 

[FourNoah]

Thank you Jarich, this was precisely what i was looking for. Thank you to everyone else as well for the tips
Oh and my cage is L36in W18in H24in
Very well ventilated; screen top, with vents on the side as well. Cordesky (my beardie) is currently kept on just a carpet substrate, hence the reason why i wanted something new. I also apologize for the confusion, i should have said moist not wet to prevent anyone thinking i would have to much humidity. Thanks again for the help.
EDIT: Question about the boat varnish though... what about fumes? Wouldn't it be toxic? Or is there non-toxic boat varnish?

 

[icelore]

On the contrary, its a very good idea. Let me see if I can answer a few of the points here.

You can seal your wood a few different ways. Probably the easiest is to get some boat varnish/marine varnish and just spread it over the wood like you would paint. Its fairly thick but goes on with a brush. Once that is on, it dries totally waterproof and seals completely, so your soil wont be an issue. You can also line the wood with FRP, which is a plastic sheeting essentially. Its quite thin, so easy to cut. Then you just seal the corners with silicone.

Its quite simple to keep the humidity at normal levels with a soil substrate, and it only needs to be kept moist, not wet. All the good bacteria, nematodes, etc need moisture to survive, so allowing your soil to dry out will kill these good things off and leave you prone to anaerobic bacteria and fungus. Having vents will allow you to keep your soil moist but not raise the humidity of your enclosure much. Also, its important to understand that these animals should not be kept in extremely low humidity environments (15% or less). They can and do often get dehydrated by extremely low humidity environments, and that is often where impaction becomes a problem.

No, you do not want to change out the substrate every three months with soil. Every couple of years is fine. The benefit of a bio active substrate is that the inhabitants of the soil cycle the wastes for you. Simply remove the urates leftover, as that will be about all that is left with a healthy bio active substrate.

Do you have any research to back this up? I've read that keeping breaded dragons on substrate that retains enough moisture to support functioning breakdown of waste is extremely dangerous. The mean percentage of humidity needed maintain anaerobic soil activity is much higher then is normal or health for a bearded dragon to be exposed to long term.

 

[Taterbug]

Thank you Jarich, this was precisely what i was looking for. Thank you to everyone else as well for the tips
Oh and my cage is L36in W18in H24in
Very well ventilated; screen top, with vents on the side as well. Cordesky (my beardie) is currently kept on just a carpet substrate, hence the reason why i wanted something new. I also apologize for the confusion, i should have said moist not wet to prevent anyone thinking i would have to much humidity. Thanks again for the help.
EDIT: Question about the boat varnish though... what about fumes? Wouldn't it be toxic? Or is there non-toxic boat varnish?

Polyurethane sealers should be given at least 2-4 weeks to cure if you don't use a special low voc type.

 

[FourNoah]

So after doing some more research on the boat varnish, doesn't seem to good of an idea. In Reptile forums i found a post about this same thing kind of thing, and found that Ronseal Quick Drying Floor Varnish could be better? Heres a link to the post
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forums/habitat/23181-yacht-varnish.html

 

[jarich]

On the contrary, its a very good idea. Let me see if I can answer a few of the points here.

You can seal your wood a few different ways. Probably the easiest is to get some boat varnish/marine varnish and just spread it over the wood like you would paint. Its fairly thick but goes on with a brush. Once that is on, it dries totally waterproof and seals completely, so your soil wont be an issue. You can also line the wood with FRP, which is a plastic sheeting essentially. Its quite thin, so easy to cut. Then you just seal the corners with silicone.

Its quite simple to keep the humidity at normal levels with a soil substrate, and it only needs to be kept moist, not wet. All the good bacteria, nematodes, etc need moisture to survive, so allowing your soil to dry out will kill these good things off and leave you prone to anaerobic bacteria and fungus. Having vents will allow you to keep your soil moist but not raise the humidity of your enclosure much. Also, its important to understand that these animals should not be kept in extremely low humidity environments (15% or less). They can and do often get dehydrated by extremely low humidity environments, and that is often where impaction becomes a problem.

No, you do not want to change out the substrate every three months with soil. Every couple of years is fine. The benefit of a bio active substrate is that the inhabitants of the soil cycle the wastes for you. Simply remove the urates leftover, as that will be about all that is left with a healthy bio active substrate.

Do you have any research to back this up? I've read that keeping breaded dragons on substrate that retains enough moisture to support functioning breakdown of waste is extremely dangerous. The mean percentage of humidity needed maintain anaerobic soil activity is much higher then is normal or health for a bearded dragon to be exposed to long term.

Personally, yes, for years now. Unfortunately there is no research that's been carried out on this topic either way. So anything you've read is merely the same, personal subjective experience. However, there is much information on the habitats that these lizards inhabit, and the humidity ranges anywhere from 25-65%. Every person I've spoken to that had issue with dragons and higher humidity were a) using sterile, unnatural environments unable to deal with bacterial/fungal blooms and b) large scale breeders. Poor ventilation is also usually a common issue with these people.

Fournoah, my sincere apologies. I should've been more careful with my wording. I did not mean the cheap varnish, I should've said resin. I have both enclosures with water based polyurethanes and resin. I've never had issue with either. The resin is a more bulletproof option, and actually takes less off gassing than the poly. I had to bake my poly enclosure for three weeks before it stopped off gassing. The resin took about 10 days.

 

[Taterbug]

My understanding of the "live" substrates is that the top does sort of dry out, but generally it's the depth that retains the majority of the moisture. Is that even true, How deep does that sort of set up need to be to work?

When I was looking into frogs it sounded complicated, and with my fish tanks I've run into anaerobic spots (when I was using sand). :/

 

[icelore]

On the contrary, its a very good idea. Let me see if I can answer a few of the points here.

You can seal your wood a few different ways. Probably the easiest is to get some boat varnish/marine varnish and just spread it over the wood like you would paint. Its fairly thick but goes on with a brush. Once that is on, it dries totally waterproof and seals completely, so your soil wont be an issue. You can also line the wood with FRP, which is a plastic sheeting essentially. Its quite thin, so easy to cut. Then you just seal the corners with silicone.

Its quite simple to keep the humidity at normal levels with a soil substrate, and it only needs to be kept moist, not wet. All the good bacteria, nematodes, etc need moisture to survive, so allowing your soil to dry out will kill these good things off and leave you prone to anaerobic bacteria and fungus. Having vents will allow you to keep your soil moist but not raise the humidity of your enclosure much. Also, its important to understand that these animals should not be kept in extremely low humidity environments (15% or less). They can and do often get dehydrated by extremely low humidity environments, and that is often where impaction becomes a problem.

No, you do not want to change out the substrate every three months with soil. Every couple of years is fine. The benefit of a bio active substrate is that the inhabitants of the soil cycle the wastes for you. Simply remove the urates leftover, as that will be about all that is left with a healthy bio active substrate.

Do you have any research to back this up? I've read that keeping breaded dragons on substrate that retains enough moisture to support functioning breakdown of waste is extremely dangerous. The mean percentage of humidity needed maintain anaerobic soil activity is much higher then is normal or health for a bearded dragon to be exposed to long term.

Personally, yes, for years now. Unfortunately there is no research that's been carried out on this topic either way. So anything you've read is merely the same, personal subjective experience. However, there is much information on the habitats that these lizards inhabit, and the humidity ranges anywhere from 25-65%. Every person I've spoken to that had issue with dragons and higher humidity were a) using sterile, unnatural environments unable to deal with bacterial/fungal blooms and b) large scale breeders. Poor ventilation is also usually a common issue with these people.

Yes, the environment these animals inhabit ranged in humidity levels from 25-65%. Their natural environment is also far larger then the confines of a tank. IN order for the microbe activity to be active enough on the *surface* of the substrate to break down waste that is left, which is what you are counseling to do, would require much more surface moisture. Healthy systems on a large scale have more moisture further down, yet this would not be the case with a small, enclosed tank/viv.

It's one thing to understand their natural environment, yet quite another to recreate it in smaller confines with limited understanding of closed systems.

 

[jarich]

On the contrary, its a very good idea. Let me see if I can answer a few of the points here.

You can seal your wood a few different ways. Probably the easiest is to get some boat varnish/marine varnish and just spread it over the wood like you would paint. Its fairly thick but goes on with a brush. Once that is on, it dries totally waterproof and seals completely, so your soil wont be an issue. You can also line the wood with FRP, which is a plastic sheeting essentially. Its quite thin, so easy to cut. Then you just seal the corners with silicone.

Its quite simple to keep the humidity at normal levels with a soil substrate, and it only needs to be kept moist, not wet. All the good bacteria, nematodes, etc need moisture to survive, so allowing your soil to dry out will kill these good things off and leave you prone to anaerobic bacteria and fungus. Having vents will allow you to keep your soil moist but not raise the humidity of your enclosure much. Also, its important to understand that these animals should not be kept in extremely low humidity environments (15% or less). They can and do often get dehydrated by extremely low humidity environments, and that is often where impaction becomes a problem.

No, you do not want to change out the substrate every three months with soil. Every couple of years is fine. The benefit of a bio active substrate is that the inhabitants of the soil cycle the wastes for you. Simply remove the urates leftover, as that will be about all that is left with a healthy bio active substrate.

Do you have any research to back this up? I've read that keeping breaded dragons on substrate that retains enough moisture to support functioning breakdown of waste is extremely dangerous. The mean percentage of humidity needed maintain anaerobic soil activity is much higher then is normal or health for a bearded dragon to be exposed to long term.

Personally, yes, for years now. Unfortunately there is no research that's been carried out on this topic either way. So anything you've read is merely the same, personal subjective experience. However, there is much information on the habitats that these lizards inhabit, and the humidity ranges anywhere from 25-65%. Every person I've spoken to that had issue with dragons and higher humidity were a) using sterile, unnatural environments unable to deal with bacterial/fungal blooms and b) large scale breeders. Poor ventilation is also usually a common issue with these people.

Yes, the environment these animals inhabit ranged in humidity levels from 25-65%. Their natural environment is also far larger then the confines of a tank. IN order for the microbe activity to be active enough on the *surface* of the substrate to break down waste that is left, which is what you are counseling to do, would require much more surface moisture. Healthy systems on a large scale have more moisture further down, yet this would not be the case with a small, enclosed tank/viv.

It's one thing to understand their natural environment, yet quite another to recreate it in smaller confines with limited understanding of closed systems.

Hey man, I'm not looking to start a big fight, but you're trying to tell me it won't work because it doesn't make sense to you. Im telling you, that's because you have a limited understanding of what you're talking about. I'm telling you I've done it for years, it breaks down waste very quickly, and all that talk about smelly poo goes out the door too. I'd be more than happy to send you the soil samples to analyze, if that's what it takes. So if your only evidence is you don't think it should work, so you won't try it and don't think it will work for others, well, I suppose that isn't going to hold a lot of water.

[Added by moderator: Rudeness is not allowed on this forum and will not be tolerated. There are nice ways to word things without ridiculing someone for not understanding.]

 

[icelore]

You consider someone having a differing opinion based on fact a "big fight"? Each time I've replied to you, I specified legitimate and specific concerns. If you do not want to reply or address those items, that is your choice, but this is a forum, the point is for discourse.

Speaking of limited understanding of what you're talking about - nice attempt to repeat what I just said to you ("limited understanding of closed systems"). Your method of "I've done it, so it's fine" is what doesn't hold water. There are people here who've had dragons on sand for years, and they didn't die of impaction - so it must be fine? There are people who have used compact florescent bulbs without their dragon getting eye problems - so it must be fine as well. There are people who haven't provided the proper UV and yet their dragon didn't develop MBD - so it must be ok too. Faulty logic is faulty logic, no matter how you slice it.

I attempted to engage you on the subject, but if you think it's appropriate to instead revert to sulking in a corner and tossing thinly veiled insults, that's your choice as well.

Enjoy the rest of your time here.


FourNoah - Best of luck with your dragon. The only thing I can suggest is that you do some research of your own and gather opinion of more then one person in an effort to figure out the best course of action.

 

[jarich]

You consider someone having a differing opinion based on fact a "big fight"? Each time I've replied to you, I specified legitimate and specific concerns. If you do not want to reply or address those items, that is your choice, but this is a forum, the point is for discourse.

Speaking of limited understanding of what you're talking about - nice attempt to repeat what I just said to you ("limited understanding of closed systems"). Your method of "I've done it, so it's fine" is what doesn't hold water. There are people here who've had dragons on sand for years, and they didn't die of impaction - so it must be fine? There are people who have used compact florescent bulbs without their dragon getting eye problems - so it must be fine as well. There are people who haven't provided the proper UV and yet their dragon didn't develop MBD - so it must be ok too. Faulty logic is faulty logic, no matter how you slice it.

I attempted to engage you on the subject, but if you think it's appropriate to instead revert to sulking in a corner and tossing thinly veiled insults, that's your choice as well.

Enjoy the rest of your time here.


FourNoah - Best of luck with your dragon. The only thing I can suggest is that you do some research of your own and gather opinion of more then one person in an effort to figure out the best course of action.

Haha, no I do not consider a different opinion a big fight, I was merely trying to avoid the chest beating. However, it seems my love of good bourbon does not walk hand in hand with my desire to communicate well. Lets see if I can try that again.

You seem to have two issues with using soil as a substrate.
1) That microbial activity is limited and so it simply wont work well enough to break down the wastes efficiently.
2) That it will create unsafe relative humidity for a bearded dragon.

So lets address those points.

1) Ill skip the part about me not understanding the closed systems (I believe that was one of those thinly veiled insults you were talking about. Im new here, but in time youll come to see that a lack of research is not something that applies to me). Instead let me say again that this system works, and works well. This is not the same as saying I got away with a poor quality CFL that produces UVC and unnatural short wavelength UVB. Nor is it the same as me saying I didnt provide both a quality source of light in the 295-310 um wavelengths for Vit D metabolite production AND that of 315-335 um UVA1 wavelength light to act as a limiter on this production (starting to see what I mean?). This is me understanding that microbial action is indeed plentiful on the surface because I create the proper conditions for it to thrive. My soil, and this is what I recommend for anyone with soil, is covered in leaf litter, 'furnishings' and debris. This allows for the soil underneath to retain its moisture while not raising the rH, and giving the nitrogen cycling microbes and inverts plenty of humid microhabitats to choose from. When you read further on the topic, which I truly hope you will, youll come to understand that a pile of waste becomes its own microhabitat when deposited. That it is essentially colonized by organisms in the soil and broken down over the course of a few days. The cycle is really quite fascinating, and involves not just coprophagic organisms, but even those that feed on these organisms as well. For instance, the Porcellio scaber in my dragon enclosure do not eat the dragon wastes directly, instead feeding on the fine mold that covers it initially. The Eudrilus eugeniae present eventually eating the results of their wastes and so forth. Now, not only do I know this is happening from research, but I also know this is happening from experience. You see, often times research can be insulated and cause a flawed perspective without experience and repeated testing. So the best knowledge is gained by both careful research and experience. Its why you telling me that there isnt enough microbial activity on the surface of the soil makes me think you might need to actually have some experience to go with your hypothesis. As Im sure you know, thats how the scientific method works; you have an idea and then you test it. My testing shows that indeed it does only take a few days at most and the waste is gone. This is not just my own subjective experience either, but that of the many others I know who use bioactive substrates. (again, thats how the scientific method works - it must be repeatable by others) Id be happy to set up a time lapse shot for you if that would alleviate your concerns. I just got a new GoPro and am always looking for excuses to use it. As I said before, Id also be happy to provide soil samples. I no longer have free access to a testing facility, so if someone else does then please feel free to speak up.

2) I have researched long and hard to find any evidence for this claim. Its one of those pervasive ideas that gets shouted from the rooftops like it were gospel, and just doesnt seem to make any sense for an animal with such a broad range of habitats. In my decades of keeping reptiles Ive also never actually met anyone who had the problem or even known anyone online who actually had this problem themselves. Its always a friend of a friend, or a breeder who someone talked to or some such mythical beast. From what I have been able to find though talking to various vets, the very few times it happened it was only large scale breeders and complete newbs who ever had this issue, and only in enclosures that were kept sterile. Part of what those two groups share in common is a lack of proper attention to the health of particular enclosures. I have never known anyone with a bio active soil who has had this issue, and I now know a great many who keep theirs that way. (You see its not just my own experience Im going off of, its a rather large number of those of us who are researchers and scientists and see the obvious advantages)

The issue seems to be not the humidity itself, but rather the ventilation and the ability of fungus to bloom and potentially cause lung issues. Now, first off let me say that there is no reason to have problems with ventilation in any dragon enclosure. If humidity rises above 50% simply let more air in. This will not be problematic for the dragon or a properly set up soil substrate. The other advantage of a healthy soil substrate over a sterile enclosure is that there is a biological system in place to prevent such unhealthy fungal blooms from occurring. That fungus is food after all, so while you dont have microbes to feed off it in your enclosure, I do. I know this not because I think its true, but because I take all my reptiles in for regular check ups that include fecal and blood testing.

So, if you have further questions about a soil substrate, please feel free to ask them. Im always happy to engage in intelligent conversation, especially if it helps dispel myths that are passed around without being questioned.

Haha, no I do not consider a different opinion a big fight, I was merely trying to avoid the chest beating. However, it seems my love of good bourbon does not walk hand in hand with my desire to communicate well. Lets see if I can try that again.

Added by moderator: Unfriendly sarcasm is breaking the policy on Rude Behavior and will not be tolerated here. If you can't post something nicely, don't post at all.