So sad and can't explain it. Please help

[GottemOnDubs]

My brother has fallen in love with beardies and he had acquired a few over the summer. They were pretty big, about 20 inches and not much more than a year old if I'm not mistaken. He got them all separately. He wanted to breed the female so we mated her with one of the males. This was about 3 weeks ago. We were so excited to see the mating take place and then watching her belly grow. He ordered a brand new incubator for the eggs, which hasn't even arrived yet. This week, the very bright and active female laid about 10 very bad yellowish brown eggs and tonight as I went in there to check on her, she was dead. She seemed to have all the symptoms that other members are witnessing, the half open eyes, the open mouth. And when I picked her up in disbelief, her head tilted back and some sort of mucous came out of her mouth and nose. She was just fine earlier today! As far as we know, this was her first breeding. I have read elsewhere that its not uncommon for the first clutch of eggs to be bad. But to be dead 24 hours later??? I am very upset and I cant even tell my brother because he will be very bad. I keep his lizards in an extra bedroom at my house with all the timers and climate controls. We are not new to reptiles or breeding them. We have done it for years mostly with snakes. This was our first venture into lizards and she was a beauty. Does anyone know what might have cause this? Its almost 2:30 in the morning here and I am not gonna get any sleep now. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I know from the other posts that I should add the conditions that she was kept so here goes:
55 gallon tank
crushed walnut substrate
heat light, day light UVB light
fresh water every few days
ate like a pig-crickets, greens, the occasional pinky (maybe once a month)
the temp without the lamps on during the night is around 71 but the lights cycle on for a little bit during the course of the night. With the lights on the tank is 81-85 degrees.

I hope someone can shed some light on this so I have some reasonable explanation for my brother. Our local reptile show is coming up and we were going to get so many things in preparation for her and her hatchlings.

 

[braydensdad]

I haven't been around beardie breeding, but the only red flag that goes up from your description is the substrate. Crushed walnut can cause impaction. I am so sorry to hear about you and your brothers lose. That is sad. The only other thing that I can think of is maybe there was some sort of complication during the laying of the eggs. Once again I am sorry about your lose.

 

[jscott]

im sorry to hear about that. besides the substrate(really all partical substrates are potentially dangerous), i would say your temps are way too low. the lights coming on everynight is definitely not healthy either, i would change that. it should be 12-14 hours on and the rest completely dark with no extra heat sources unless it goes below 60. if it does then you should get a ceramic heat emmiter; produces heat but absolutley no light. anyhow, the night-light cycle is not good, but that wouldnt have caused this probably.

id say if all your dragons are sharing it then its probably a respiritory infection caused by low temps. proper daytime temps are 80F on the cool side(thats air temp) and 100-110 on the hot side(thats surface temp). night time temps should be between 60-70F.

stick on thermometers are not reliable devices for measuring temps, if you have one of those you should look into a digital probe thermometer or one of these(even better):
http://www.tempgun.com/main.html

it could also be some kind of contagious thing but i dont know about that... is there any chance you can get a stool sample of one of the remaining ones and take it to the vets? i dont even know if that would help, you may need to take the actual animal to the vet for a checkout.

im going to ask some more experienced members to take over for me, but i hope everything works out for you.

you came to the right place :wink: .

 

[Pleaides]

oh boy im so sorry to hear of your loss, thats a terrible thing to happen, well ive bred snakes also but have never bred my dragons so wouldnt really know, all i can come up with is pretty much the same as the above poster, temps were way too low, and the stick on thermometers are awful, temps on cool end need to be around 80f, warm end around 90-95f, basking spot around 100-110f, digital thermometers are the best to monitor the temps, also id highly recommend using tile, id never use loose substrate for a dragon, even my snakes are only on paper towel, its too dangerous and not worth the risks, even theough it does look a bit naff, lol, when a female is gravid i use a shoe box then use vermiculite, did the female have a nesting box? how are the other 2 housed? together or seperately? if housed together id seperate them immediately in case its something contagious, they are solitary and territorial creatures unless breeding of course.
what lighting do you use, ideally its got to be a fluorescent tube uvb, preferably the reptisun 10.0, a white household bulb in conjunction with the uv and a ceramic heat emitter IF temps drop below 60f at night and if you cant get temps up to over 100f during the day, that works prefectly, no lighting whatsoever during the 10 hours of darkness they need to stay healthy. was any of the dragons ever checked for worms or parasites before breeding them? also like someone esle mentioned an RI could have played a part in this due to low temps.
well i hope the others thrive for you and that this isnt a contagious thing, id get them to a herp vet for a check up personally.
let us know how things are going for you.

 

[LJean]

What UVB light were you using? Were you supplementing with calcium and vitamins?

 

[sunkist]

Ohhh I'm sorry for your loss but definitely take into account what the others have said. Also a year old is a bit to young to start mating them. They recommend to wait until they are 2.

 

[midnight_962002]

I skimmed the thread so I am not sure if this was mentioned. But, I wonder if one of the eggs broke internally and went septic on her? Especially since she laid a couple of them and they looked bad. When a girl is prego her care has to be top notch or something can go wrong and when it does it can go really wrong.

Ernie

 

[GottemOnDubs]

Thank you all for replying so quickly. I am not really sure how old he said she was. I may be wrong about that. She may be older but I cant really find out because I still havent told him yet because now he is at work and he will be very upset so I'm waiting for him to come by the see her as he does every day after work. I know for some reason he was told to switch to the walnut shell, although I do not like that kind of substrate either. All my snakes were on that fake green indoor/outdoor capreting. It was easy to remove and clean. I know the temp didnt get down too much, also with their lamps was a small room heater. We blocked off the vents from the house and used that to keep the room warm. As far as monitoring the temperature goes, there was a stick on thermometer in her tank, as well as a remote thermometer that we could monitor the tank temp and the room temp from another room and when she got pregnant, we added a third with a humidity meter when we added the box with the vermiculite for her to lay the eggs in. That is really the only change to her setup probably for her entire life, other than the walnut shell. I cant remember if she was on sand or not before that. My brother got her with the tank already done. How long does it take for RI to set in? I swear this happened in a matter of a few hours which is what is so shocking to me. Can anyone elaborate on the septic egg idea? The eggs that came out were very bad, the worst I have ever seen in all my years of breeding. They almost looked like they didnt have a shell, almost like it was just the solidifed yolk. I've seen "slugs" many times and this was way worse than that. She has been kept separate her entire life, as are the other 2 large males. We have 2 smaller yearlings that are housed together in my livingroom in a large 40 gallon with all the necessary bulbs and heat sources as well and they are lively as could be. The loss is bad enough, on top of a bad clutch of eggs, but to not know why and not have a reason could be the worst part if indeed I need to change something so that it doesnt happen to the others. Thank you all so much gain for your input.

 

[GottemOnDubs]

Ok, I had to call him and tell him. He was almost done work anyways. I was thinking to that I needed to tell him in case he decided to stop and buy anything else for her. He was crushed. The only things I can tell him to try and make him understand were all of your comments and what I have read so far in other posts. It turns out she is about 5 years old. He has had her for about a year, the previous owner for 2 and the one before that for about 2 years. Was she too old for all of this? As far as we know this was her first breeding. Was she under too much stress for her age? I pride myself in knowing as much about my animals as I can before I decide to try to keep them and normally I would have a few books on their husbandry but I actually just moved back home from Florida and the animals were already here. I havent had much of a chance to do my homework with them other than reading what I can find online and my brother does his networking as well. I was always under the impression that these were hardy animals. They are very attentive, not aggressive, eat like pigs and are usually very energetic. From what I read, bad eggs are not uncommon, and alot of these posts mention the animal being fine one minute and dead the next. I'm just very surprised at the moment. Saturday is our local show and we will surely try again but now under all of your advice. We have 2 gorgeous males ready for breeding and my contribution to this along with taking care of them in his absence was to acquire another large female. Is age something to worry about with these guys? When purchasing one, is there a "sweet spot" when it comes to age like old enough to be well established but young enough for us to enjoy a few years with them?

 

[Kagome100]

I dont think its right to breed a 5 year old dragon, ya to me that is to old. but i think there are ppl out there that will breed dragons that old. also ya the walnut needs to go, that can kill them. and heating yes like every one else has said needs to be higher. So really them two things could of helped in her death. IF your going to breed again, dont breed any female under a two years old some people have bred at 1 year or year in a half but i dont think thats right to do. Read some more on dragon breeding before getting another female to breed.

Did you feed her calcium powder with her food??

 

[MissT]

Im very sorry to hear about the loss of your dragon. Her age, previous care and the walnut substrate could all have been factors contributing to her death.... I guess we cant really tell. Walnut substrate, however, is one of the worst substrates to use. It not only causes impaction but the particles can cause horrific internal injuries as it rips through the beardies system. Before doing anything, you will want to get rid of that!

When purchasing one, is there a "sweet spot" when it comes to age like old enough to be well established but young enough for us to enjoy a few years with them

I would say choose a beardie that is around 18months old. As you mentioned, you didnt really have the time to do the research and preparation you would have liked to do. If you buy a beardie that is around 18months, you have a few months to do some more research and prepare everything for her. Dont waste time with the books on sale out there - most are out dated and inaccurate - this website, is a superb alternative that will allow you to learn everything you could possible wish to know!!

Good luck with your beardie family!

T

 

[jscott]

the above poster made a good point; alot of other sources might tell you info but they have a hidden adgenda: they wanna sell you a book, they wanna sell you a dragon, they wanna sell you dragon supplies, etc... all the people here want is to give you the proper info so your animals are happy.

all of us here have been burned by some petstore who told us bogus information or sold us harmfull products. if your considering someting, its best to check here first and see what happened when someone else did it(lighting, substrate, meds, sickness).

 

[GottemOnDubs]

The walnut is going to be history. Thats pretty obvious. Unfortunately my brother filled all the tanks with it so thats really a waste but he was told to get it. Now I see that not only is it messy but dangerous. I like the fake grass stuff better anyways because its easier to maintain and the bright green really makes the dragons stand out and puts some color into the setup. I also mentioned to my brother what you guys said about her age and he agreed. There must be some sort of bell curve to when it is safe for them to be bred and she was past her prime,especially for it being her first time. For her age, she probably had the worst last two weeks ever. To answer the question about the supplements, yes, we dusted the crickets for her as well as the greens. My brother bought crickets by the hundreds and he bought all the food for them and the blue "cricket drink" stuff. We took care of the crickets just as if they were pets as well. I guess I'm just in awe at how quickly this all happened. I'm used to a snake become lethargic or having some signs of something going wrong but she remained as bright and energetic as I've ever known her to be until her last moment. I just got home in october and kinda hit the ground running when I got here trying to do things and get situated, plus dealing with a sick mother who just had surgery for her cancer. It wasn't really on my mind to get into these lizards but as things got better, I got a little more into them and I fell for them too. You have all provided alot of insight into the world of the beardies and I feel better (a little) that there is some sort of explanation for what happened. To me it just sounds like an unfortunate series of events along with me being inexperienced with them. We have tons of extra tanks so I will have my brother set some up with the carpeting for whatever new ones we get this weekend and for the other ones we have. I know enough now from all of you to give the new ones a running start. I'm glad to have all of this information available to me this week before the show as well because I can be a smarter person going into it. As soon as I figure out how to post some pics up I would like to share our collection with all of you. Thank you all again.

 

[Menolly]

Hi
I'm very sorry for your lose. I was just curious what kind of bulbs do you have in your cage?