Slow decline with older beardie. Any help is appreciated!

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oatmeal

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So, I feel a bit like a "fair weather friend" on these forums. I haven't been on in months (new job and lots of other things taking up time), but I could really use some help if anyone has any insight.

In May my 13 year old beardie ate a 1.5inch piece of aquarium tubing (long story, I posted about that when it happened lol) and had to have it surgically removed. They attempted to remove it by endoscopy, but that was not successful and she required surgical removal. It was successful, and she was put on 2 oral antibiotics just before/after the surgery (ciprofloxacin 4mg/2ml, 4mg every 2 days; and metronidzole 6mg/2ml, 6mg once daily). The cipro was a substitute for baytril, which I could not find in town. Around this time, before her surgery, she was given a wormer as wel(just in case) and her stools have always been great (large, though infrequent poops, well formed, not particularly smelly, good urates).

After her surgery I was instructed to feed her a slurry (increasing in volume and viscosity over a period of 2 weeks) in lieu of solid food to ensure the incisions healed well. She ended up taking this great and looked forward to her slurries near the end of the 2 weeks.

After this period I noticed that her appetite remained good; she would eat bugs well, but her interest in salad has decreased slowly and dramatically since June. She was eating greens and repashy gel if I held them in front of her face, but now she will only eat bugs (with vigor, off tweezers), and will not touch anything else.

She spends her day laying in a corner of the tank (currently the warm side under her basking light, but a few weeks ago she was holed up in her hide on the cool side).

I replaced her UVB in May for her surgery (zoomed powersun), and 3 weeks ago replaced it with an arcadia 12% tube. This does not seem to have made any difference in her behaviour. The day we put the arcadia in she seemed perky and happy, but has since resumed her lethargic behaviour. She has adequate temps within the range that she likes, basking spots with and without UVB exposure, but she just seems to be gravitating towards corners.

Her beard is not black, and she has no stress spots. She will lick baby food off her nose if I drop it on there. I've been syringe feeding her small amounts of slurry/baby food with her supplements (liquid calcium/multivit/serrapeptase).
I've noticed that after I've syringe fed her she will do this thing where she swallows repeatedly (sometimes I can hear a clicky sound) and/or will exhale audibly. I haven't noticed her doing this with bugs, but maybe I just haven't noticed.

I don't think she's eating enough, but I'm having a hard time getting her to take food. She isn't fast enough for crickets, unless I fridge them for a long time and supervise until she's found all of them. Honestly though, I haven't even tried crickets in over a month because it's so tedious. At this point I'm not even sure if she would chase them.

Vet: Took her to the vet a few days ago (a different vet, since the one who did the surgery relocated). He is not an exotic vet, but does have a decent amount of experience so I thought I would try it (there are 2 exotic vets 2 hours away, so I thought I would try the local vet first).
He examined her very thoroughly. After I told him about the clicking/breathing he examined her heart/lungs and said they sounded clear. He opened her mouth to check if there was an obstruction, and there was nothing. He said the back of her throat looked slightly enlarged, but not red or infected or anything.
She was X-rayed to check for any asymmetry around the head/neck and there was nothing that stood out, although he is going to get copies of her pre-surgery x-rays to see if there are any differences.
He also gave her a vit. D shot just in case. He was wondering if her eyesight might be going, but I'm not sure. Anyone know how to test their eyesight?
Could it be a URI even though the vet doesn't think so?
I understand that she may be declining due to her age, but I love her and want to do anything I can to help her, whether that is treating an illness or making sure she's comfortable :)
On the bright side the vet was very surprised with her good bone density/age and told me I must be doing something right lol!

I'm sorry if this is a disjointed post! I don't know if I've missed anything. I have a lot on my mind these days, and it's hard to remember every little thing as this has been a slowly progressing situation! If anyone has any insight, I'd be delighted to hear it :) Thanks for reading.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi Oatmeal...I remember your beardie's crazy experience with the tube and it's amazing that at 13 y.o. she's still kicking. :) It may be that she is going through a brumation phase....all the things she is doing now points to that. Nothing wrong with it, and most beardies DO slow down on eating. Of course at her age it's natural for you to be more concerned but as long as she's not getting too thin then just see how she gets on. And even if she will only eat from tweezers for the remainder of her life that would be reasonable. She can be pampered in her golden years if she's unable to go for the food on her own. You might try tricking her with a bit of veggie leaf wrapped around a wriggly worm, or maybe pop a small leaf in her mouth as she's chewing on a worm.

By the way, what are her weight + size ? It's always helpful to include that info.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
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Moderator
Hello,

I remember your case also! I am happy to hear she is still doing well, at 13 that is terrific. :D
That is wonderful she came through both procedures so easily, amazing.
I agree, she could be slowing down for the season, has she done that in the past?
The Arcadia D3 12% tube bulb, how far do you have it from her?
How often do you supplement calcium for her?
Do you have any pictures of her also?
It sounds like she is pampered, which for her age is nothing to be ashamed of. LOL Any way you can get her to eat, hand feeding, etc is fine. It is fun to hand feed them greens, she may love that.

Tracie
 

oatmeal

Member
Original Poster
AHBD":1uh3g1dt said:
Hi Oatmeal...I remember your beardie's crazy experience with the tube and it's amazing that at 13 y.o. she's still kicking. :) It may be that she is going through a brumation phase....all the things she is doing now points to that. Nothing wrong with it, and most beardies DO slow down on eating. Of course at her age it's natural for you to be more concerned but as long as she's not getting too thin then just see how she gets on. And even if she will only eat from tweezers for the remainder of her life that would be reasonable. She can be pampered in her golden years if she's unable to go for the food on her own. You might try tricking her with a bit of veggie leaf wrapped around a wriggly worm, or maybe pop a small leaf in her mouth as she's chewing on a worm.

By the way, what are her weight + size ? It's always helpful to include that info.

Hello again! Thanks for getting back to me! Sorry it's taken me a while to organize myself to reply lol!
Nothing has really changed, although yesterday she ate 2 mealworms by herself (not witnessed, but they were gone out of worm bowl), and is now back to cramming herself in a corner and sleeping lol. I just got some worms and salad stuff, so I think I'll just offer that every few days. She looks like she's getting a bit dehydrated though (wrinkly), so I'll probably give her a bath and some oral fluids today.

When she was at the vet she weighed 380g, which is pretty close to her pre-surgery weight, and she's about 16" long from snout to tail. I'll probably weigh her today and see if there's any changes while I have her out. Thanks for reminding me! And thank you for your support. I really appreciate it; I just don't want anything to happen and then feel like I could have done more, you know?
 

oatmeal

Member
Original Poster
Drache613":3vz3n9an said:
Hello,

I remember your case also! I am happy to hear she is still doing well, at 13 that is terrific. :D
That is wonderful she came through both procedures so easily, amazing.
I agree, she could be slowing down for the season, has she done that in the past?
The Arcadia D3 12% tube bulb, how far do you have it from her?
How often do you supplement calcium for her?
Do you have any pictures of her also?
It sounds like she is pampered, which for her age is nothing to be ashamed of. LOL Any way you can get her to eat, hand feeding, etc is fine. It is fun to hand feed them greens, she may love that.

Tracie

Thank you, Tracie for getting back to me :) I know it doesn't sound like a huge deal, and she does often brumate, but this behaviour started back in August when it was still really warm and bright out. I then thought that maybe her tank was too dark (as we had moved it recently), hence the arcadia tube lol. I just took a picture of her, but it's not great quality as she's crammed in a hard to reach corner. I'll take one when I have her out later today :) She looks a bit dehydrated, but really not too bad.

Her basking spot is about 25cm from the light, and it's her usual preferred basking temp (mid 90's). She has lots of places to get away from the light too if she wants, and I also tried shutting it off for a few days to see if that made a difference (it didn't).

She was getting the liquid calcium 3 times a week, but when she won't take that I have other supplements I dust bugs with if she will take those.

I hope she feels pampered lol! She doesn't have a black beard or stress marks or anything, so hopefully she isn't uncomfortable. When I poked my head in to take a photo earlier she opened her eyes, so she's still very responsive at least.

It seems like all my reptiles have become picky eaters: Our rescue beardie (who is doing great) is on a veggie strike, our basilisk will only eat bugs (she gave me a really dirty look the other day when I put a bowl of fruit in her viv), and you guys know the situation with my senior beardie lol! At least the geckos and newts aren't doing anything odd lol! :roll:

Do you have any tips in particular with the arcadia lights? I went onto their website and figured out the approximate UVB measurements for this particular bulb at different distances and set up Ryu's tank accordingly. I think it's the best I can do at the moment without actually buying a solarmetre (a bit out of my budget at the moment I think lol).

I'll take a look around this forum for any info on the arcadia bulbs. Can't believe I didn't think of that before!
 

oatmeal

Member
Original Poster
Globie":33fe72sf said:
Hi,
After giving her antibiotics, did you give her probiotics?

Hello, Globie! Yep, she got probiotics during and after her antibiotic course. Thankfully I had a bunch in the fridge from when our other dragon was having some digestive issues.
Thanks for reminding me though. She hasn't actually gotten probiotics in a while. I think I'll dust some bugs and give her some today!
 

oatmeal

Member
Original Poster
Hey! So I just fed her a hornworm (which she was very excited about). I put it in the bowl, and before she ate it she stood up, and was breathing very heavily; it looked like when they put someone on a respirator (very deep, uncontrolled breaths), which is something I haven't seen before.
I tried to video this, and got a bit of it after she ate the worm, but I also noticed she is now "clicking" occasionally while exhaling (not just swallowing).
Is it possible the vet missed a diagnosis of an upper RI? I'll continue trying to video some of these behaviours.

Sorry; I was much more chill until she started moving around. The way she is breathing, and the sounds she's making don't seem right to me. :S
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Aw, I hope this is just an isolated incident, maybe brought on by excitement from seeing the hornworm. :? How has she been since ? Any more trouble breathing ? Definitely keep an eye on her just in case....and I'm always pulling for her !
 

oatmeal

Member
Original Poster
Well, I feel dumb!
I took her out today to feed her, and finally decided to take a penlight and check her out (eyes, mouth nose) and saw that both her nostrils were plugged with shed! I feel very stupid.
Got to work with some olive oil on a q-tip and managed to remove it. Definitely obstructed both nostrils.
It's only been about a half our since this revelation, so we'll see how she does. Her mysterious gaping/gasping/breathing issue seems to have resolved. Boy, do I feel guilty!! :cry: poor baby!
Makes sense though. Trying to eat when you can't breathe through your nose is scary!
 

oatmeal

Member
Original Poster
AHBD":2764ruwo said:
Aw, I hope this is just an isolated incident, maybe brought on by excitement from seeing the hornworm. :? How has she been since ? Any more trouble breathing ? Definitely keep an eye on her just in case....and I'm always pulling for her !

Thank you so much :) You're always so nice to me, even though I often feel like I'm such a worry wart!
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
You're welcome, and good for you on noticing what the problem was + that it's not a respiratory infection....that's great !
 
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