Size differences in siblings

[GottemOnDubs]

Hey guys. My batch that hatched on June 7th is doing amazingly. 19 babies in all. It was my first succesful hatch. I have my second clutch of 15 eggs in the incubator as we speak. My question is this: Some of the babies are almost 3 times bigger than the others and some of them aren't much bigger than they were when they hatched. They all eat like pigs and are very active. What is going on with them? Some of the bigger ones can pass for 8 month olds and the smallest ones look like newborns. Someone suggested that the larger ones are taking the food from the others but I watch them all eat every single day. I make sure they all eat. They have fresh greens every day and crickets every other day (along with the greens that are in a monstrous food dish so they have enough) and as I said, I have not seen any of them get pushed around or deprived of food. I understand it is nature for them to develop a hierarchy amongst themselves, but the size difference is quite amazing. I will have to post pics tomorrow for you to see. Any ideas? I cant get over how big some of them are already. The parents were not terribly big, about 20 inches. I'm fairly certain there is no GG in them, but that would be something to be determined later on, correct? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again

 

[sara24354]

Don't know if you knew this or not so thought I would mention it. Babies should have live feeders every day!! As much as they can eat in a 10-15 minute time limit,and one feeding each day (5 days a week should be dusted with calcium dust and 2 days a week one feeding a day dusted with vitamins.What kind of UVB do you use? And what size enclosure are they in?

 

[fresnowitte]

To add to Sara's reply....

Also it would be best if you set up another enclosure and seperated the smaller ones from the
larger ones. :wink: Even though they are eating that doesn't mean they are not stressing over the
larger ones in the viv. That stress can hinder their growth...also keep in mind that all beardies are
different...even babies. :wink:

 

[GottemOnDubs]

They do get fed live every day. The greens are in there as a "supplement" if you will. They do seem to enjoy them as well plus the greens allow for the "lesser fed" ones, if that is what is happening, to be able to get some food. But as I said, I keep a very good eye on them when it comes to feeding. These are my first babies and I am very attentive to them. They are in a 40 gallon breeder with two massive intricate pieces of driftwood. There are so many branches and little nooks that no 2 would ever have to see each other if they were on there. There is also a small rock cave. I have never seen them fight. I have never seen any of them nip any of the other ones, even at feeding time. 2 months into it and they still have all their fingers and toes and tails. They have an ExoTerra Sun glow bulb, a Zoo Med Ultra Sun as well as 2 Zoo Med basking lights which sit about 4 inches from the tops of the driftwood so they have plenty of room to move up and down to thermoregulate. As I said, I monitor everything with them, they all seem to be "equals" except for the size differences.

 

[fresnowitte]

Which one of those lights puts out the UVB?
An even though you don't have any nipping it is still best to divide the smaller from the larger.
It's not only nips that you should worry about it is also the overall well being too.... and the smaller
ones will feel intimidated which can stress them and cause them to have a lower growth rate keeping them small never able to reach their potiential size. Sorry just my opinion. :wink:

You could even put a divider in the enclosure to separate them.

Do you have a pic of your babies in their enclosure?

 

[GottemOnDubs]

This is an older picture from about a month ago. There are two of these logs in there. I haven't gotten my camera yet to get the pics I want to show all of you about the size differences. I will do that shortly and take a pic of the whole setup. I think I am going to split them up but not by putting a divider in the tank. That would mean having 10 of them in a 20 gallon and that would be exponentially more cramped than 19 in a 40. I have plenty of other tanks. My only issue is the lights. With the arrival of these babies, my sav babies and the new adult BDs and my geckos, all of our light fixtures are spoken for. I am 75% done converting a large 3 shelf dining room hutch for some of the adults and once that is done, I am going to convert the shelf that all the 40's are on. It is 6 feet tall and 4 feet wide and when complete, each enclosure will be approximately 75 gallons with all the proper light fixtures hard wired in as well as the bubbling system for the water bowls. It seems like all hell broke loose withing the course of one month lol. So here is a pic. I will post others as soon as I get my camera out of my car and charge it.

 

[GottemOnDubs]

Ok, here is a pic of two of the babies. Clearly there is a huge difference. The ratio of big ones to smaller ones is about 60/40 so I'm supposing that there are no "runts" in the litter.

Here is a pic of my baby Savs. One of them is growing at a much quicker rate than the others. He is in the middle. Forgive the mess, last week was a little hectic Again, the Savs eat like its going out of style. I feed them crickets and superworms and make sure they all are eating.

Is it just the luck of the draw that clearly they started out at the same level but if one eats just one or two more crickets than the others that he is given a slight growth advantage and then they exponentially grow faster from there? As I said, none of them are deprived of food but the size difference is amazing.
I tried to take a pic of the bd cage but it too was a mess and the way the logs were set up, I wouldnt be able to show you how spacious they are and I really didnt want to rearrange everything to take the pic.

 

[fresnowitte]

Okay I mean this in a kind way only because I care, but that is a large size difference :shock: for clutchmates and regardless of the reason for the size difference you really should set up another enclosure for the smaller ones. Personally I would just to be on the safe side. :wink: As a matter of fact this 2 week old clutch I have right now there are 2 that are a bit smaller than the other's which I already have another viv set up to transfer them to if they seem to not keep up in growth with the others...but mine there's only about 3/4 of an inch difference.

BTW...pretty babies...savannas too.

 

[gulfbrzdawn]

I will have to agree with Barbara on separating the smaller beardies from the larger ones. That does seem to be quite a difference in size for clutchmates.
I also wanted to mention your lights. The ones you listed are all basking lights, except for one which is a full spectrum daylight lamp. None of these are uvb lights. Are you using a uvb?

 

[fresnowitte]

Hey here's a great link you might find it interesting. :wink:
I'd like if you could atleast check out the heading lighting and heating.
http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/GeneralCare.html

 

[GottemOnDubs]

Thank you. I am very proud of my babies. The Savs are really nice when they are clean. They pretty much just sleep and poop. I have been trying to find homes for them but all I get is no-shows but because of that, I get to spend alot of time with them and they are dog tame, except for one who is a little hissy. My nicest colored one actually runs over to me and climbs up my arm and seems to enjoy me scratching his neck and chin.

I apologize about the lights. I have a 3 light fixture with the bulbs I previously mentioned and a separate light and I just overlooked one of them because I quickly glanced over them to get the names to post on here. Yes, I am using a Flukers 5.0 20 watt UVB spiral bulb on them. It is centered on the cage to give exposure to both logs and the cage evenly. I wish I knewI'd have to make another setup a few days ago. Our local show was saturday and I could have picked up some more supplies :roll:

So I think I need to set up another tank for some of the beardies. If not for your words, the " :shock: " that you included lets me know you are serious lol. It really is hard to believe the difference. The small one in the pic actually has dull blood red sides. He would be really nice when he gets bigger. Thanks for all your help. I needed someone else who knew more to confirm my suspicions. Off I go I guess!

 

[fresnowitte]

Okay I must inform you that the coil bulbs have caused health issues in beardies they do not put out the proper UVB for bearded dragons. If you read the article on lighting and heating I linked you to it may help some. Also if you use the sites google search at the top right of the page and google coil bulbs you will find many many conversations about them.

Majority of the bulbs sold for reptiles are not sufficent for beardies and many are harmful. Some of the bad ones I can think of off hand are....Coil bulbs of any kind...Compact bulbs of any kind...ESU brand bulbs of any kind...Reptiglo's(I believe that one of the bulbs they put out is okay but I don't remember which one).

The reptisun 10.0, or the Arcadia 12 are good bulbs on UVB output for beardies or a MVB(mercury vapor bulb)(Which is only recommended to use on 40gal breeders or larger.)

The cheapest place to find the reptisun 10.0 are these 2 places.
http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-bulb.html
http://www.reptilesupply.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=reptisun+10.0

The fixures are a T-8 an you can pick them up cheapest at any hardware store. :wink:
The bulb should stretch the length of the enclosure.

 

[peera]

Okay I must inform you that the coil bulbs have caused health issues in beardies they do not put out the proper UVB for bearded dragons. If you read the article on lighting and heating I linked you to it may help some. Also if you use the sites google search at the top right of the page and google coil bulbs you will find many many conversations about them.

Majority of the bulbs sold for reptiles are not sufficent for beardies and many are harmful. Some of the bad ones I can think of off hand are....Coil bulbs of any kind...Compact bulbs of any kind...ESU brand bulbs of any kind...Reptiglo's(I believe that one of the bulbs they put out is okay but I don't remember which one).

The reptisun 10.0, or the Arcadia 12 are good bulbs on UVB output for beardies or a MVB(mercury vapor bulb)(Which is only recommended to use on 40gal breeders or larger.)

The cheapest place to find the reptisun 10.0 are these 2 places.
http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-bulb.html
http://www.reptilesupply.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=reptisun+10.0

The fixures are a T-8 an you can pick them up cheapest at any hardware store. :wink:
The bulb should stretch the length of the enclosure.

QFT. I also wanted to add Zilla UVB to her list of not-to-be-trusted bulbs, I've never been so scared in my life as the 2 days I had a Zilla UVB on Gibby and he stopped eating and opening his eyes. I thought I'd killed him! And the "ok" ReptiGlo is the 8.0, but it's critical that there's plenty of bright white light to offset it.

 

[GottemOnDubs]

Okay I must inform you that the coil bulbs have caused health issues in beardies they do not put out the proper UVB for bearded dragons. If you read the article on lighting and heating I linked you to it may help some. Also if you use the sites google search at the top right of the page and google coil bulbs you will find many many conversations about them.

Majority of the bulbs sold for reptiles are not sufficent for beardies and many are harmful. Some of the bad ones I can think of off hand are....Coil bulbs of any kind...Compact bulbs of any kind...ESU brand bulbs of any kind...Reptiglo's(I believe that one of the bulbs they put out is okay but I don't remember which one).

The reptisun 10.0, or the Arcadia 12 are good bulbs on UVB output for beardies or a MVB(mercury vapor bulb)(Which is only recommended to use on 40gal breeders or larger.)

The cheapest place to find the reptisun 10.0 are these 2 places.
http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-bulb.html
http://www.reptilesupply.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=reptisun+10.0

The fixures are a T-8 an you can pick them up cheapest at any hardware store. :wink:
The bulb should stretch the length of the enclosure.

I'll be honest with you, I knew I needed UV bulbs and I came across these and the price was right so I grabbed a few. In my mind, the spiral design is kind of a waste, and as you point out now, they don't work properly. I really wasn't aware of this.
I do have several ExoTerra 8.0 tubes that I actually was planning to use in the new vivs. Are these acceptable? I started out with reps about 17 years ago and it was all snakes so the concept of UV to me is fairly new. I haven't done as much research as I should have when it came to the bulbs and manufacturers. The new vivs are going to be 100% perfect, I promise you. Especially after seeing the viv thread on here, I now know what kinds of things I can use. My entire reptile career up til now was basically snakes in glass tanks with heat pads LOL. I will have to see what I can come up with. I'm being pulled in a hundred directions at once with all of this trying to get everyone set up. I will definitely look into this and see what I can get and afford right now. If the 8.0 that I mentioned earlier is better, I can swap it out for them. If not, my hands are tied financially for a bit and our next show isn't until the middle of october but I plan on loading up my trunk with supplies to get me through the winter. Looks like I have alot of renovating to do. I really appreciate your help.

 

[GottemOnDubs]

Okay I must inform you that the coil bulbs have caused health issues in beardies they do not put out the proper UVB for bearded dragons. If you read the article on lighting and heating I linked you to it may help some. Also if you use the sites google search at the top right of the page and google coil bulbs you will find many many conversations about them.

Majority of the bulbs sold for reptiles are not sufficent for beardies and many are harmful. Some of the bad ones I can think of off hand are....Coil bulbs of any kind...Compact bulbs of any kind...ESU brand bulbs of any kind...Reptiglo's(I believe that one of the bulbs they put out is okay but I don't remember which one).

The reptisun 10.0, or the Arcadia 12 are good bulbs on UVB output for beardies or a MVB(mercury vapor bulb)(Which is only recommended to use on 40gal breeders or larger.)

The cheapest place to find the reptisun 10.0 are these 2 places.
http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-bulb.html
http://www.reptilesupply.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=reptisun+10.0

The fixures are a T-8 an you can pick them up cheapest at any hardware store. :wink:
The bulb should stretch the length of the enclosure.

QFT. I also wanted to add Zilla UVB to her list of not-to-be-trusted bulbs, I've never been so scared in my life as the 2 days I had a Zilla UVB on Gibby and he stopped eating and opening his eyes. I thought I'd killed him! And the "ok" ReptiGlo is the 8.0, but it's critical that there's plenty of bright white light to offset it.

You posted this as I was writing my reply. Those are the bulbs I have, the Repti-Sun 8.0. If they are better at all, I will use them for now until I can get what I need. I have one of those Zilla hood lights but the bulbs are ridiculous and I had heard they weren't so great so I dont ever use it.Of course it appears that you can only use Zilla bulbs in that housing, but I got it for free with my geckos.