Seizures? Neurological damage or something else?

[Cenetri]

Let me get right down to it:

While at the pet store I help out at, I was watching the baby beardeds, all who appeared in good condition. Suddenly, though, one looked as if it was attempting to throw up, thrashing its head left and right with its mouth spread as if it were heaving, and then it collapsed and fell into an apparent seizure. It voided some liquids from its vent and its back legs stiffened; the front legs went back, as if it were swimming, and its back legs crossed over each other. From there it began thrashing and trembling, which gave away what was happening. I immediately took it out of the enclosure and could tell that it had stopped breathing; eyes closed and mouth was weakly hanging, black beard down throughout the throat and chest. I managed to revive it through vigorous massaging and very light pressure applied to the chest area, though it was obviously in pain and extremely stressed out, not wanting to open its eyes and avoiding movement. Knowing that it was alive at least, I gave it a warm soak in water and actually requested to watch it overnight, to which the reptile manager happily allowed.

I've taken to considering this little survivor a male; so far, he has been doing well in his temporary emergency enclosure. I've got a nice, hot basking lamp and UV coming down on him, and he has definitely perked up since the incident. No more black beard, though he does appear weak and tired, not wanting to move all too much but to search around and find a nice resting spot. Tried to feed, but no obvious appetite (as I expected). I noticed that he has a lack of coordination - a bit clumsy in comparison to the other babies he had been with, and he seems to want to curl his left front food underneath him, right at the wrist. A bit of limb-trembling as well and he hangs his head pretty low, preferring to scoot about rather than hold his head up. I did give him another soak, though, and he CAN hold himself up.

I'm not ruling it out, but I would be surprised if this was MBD honestly. The people at this store are pretty darn responsible for a pet shop, as responsible as a pet shop can really get. Everyone cared and jumped in on helping me when I pointed out he had seized, helping me get the bath prepared and checking in on him time to time. I know that they dust their crickets with calcium and have UV bulbs as well, 10.0 tubes. They know what they're doing, and so I'm skeptical that this would be the cause, but you never know.

So my question is, anyone think this could be neurological damage due to genetic problems or any real outside cause? Possibly because he wasn't breathing for a good 30 seconds or slightly more? What are the causes and effects of seizing? Could this be a different issue altogether? Any input is appreciated.

 

[Esther19]

My guess would be neurological, unless he was exposed to something toxic. I would make sure he stays hydrated by offering water orally in addition to bathing. I would try feeding the carnivore care, and mix up a greens slurry and strain it. I put beardie bites in my slurry , as well. I would arrange a vet visit, too. Is there a reptile specialist in your area? Please keep us posted on his progress.

 

[CooperDragon]

I also think it's probably neurological/genetic barring ingestion of something toxic. Especially if the others are OK. I second the vet visit as well. Such a tough situation. I'm glad you were there to help and get the little guy some love. I hope the best for both of you.

 

[Cenetri]

I might not be able to hold onto him for a long time, considering I don't have a true enclosure for him and he isn't technically mine. He will, however, be my main priority at the store from here on out - volunteering there, they let me get some things for free, so maybe if I help out for enough time/days they'd help me pay for a vet visit. That is definitely something I'd like to get for him.

I'll attempt syringe feeding or slurry feeding tomorrow; I have my last two finals before summer break, and from there I can get more hours in at the store. It's so sad to see this little guy feeling uncomfortable, he really is a sweetheart... it'd be so much easier to be able to put him in with Lola, my little female Rankin's who isn't too much bigger than him and is very docile with other lizards, but cross contamination scares the heck out of me. If it turned out to be viral or parasitic after all, I wouldn't want to spread it. Darn! I could probably keep him, at least for a while longer, if the enclosure was possible... right now I have him in an open-lid carrier case with lights coming down on him that Lola spared for the day. She was sleeping all day (always lazy!), so I just used them for the time being. The cost of another setup for only a temporary housing would be a bit too much, sadly, when you consider the cost of a new set of lights, tank, and how I would need a bigger power strip to fit all of my cords. Hopefully some miracle happens and I can get him into my full-time possession either now or at some point down the road.

Here's a quick picture. So sad to see him in such a tired state after the ordeal, he's a very pretty citrus leatherback.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Is he a leatherback by chance?
I think what you are doing for him is wonderful! He at least has a chance. Is he at the store now, correct?
I would just continue to give him a bath as often as you can with your schedule. Good luck with the slurry feeding, I hope that he takes to it well.
He did have some type of seizure, but whether or not it is calcium related or genetic related is hard to determine.
He didn't come into contact with anything toxic right?
Keep us posted on him.

Tracie

 

[spike5]

Hi-

Not sure I can answer any questions but I wanted to maybe add some thoughts and in it have questions myself. Just yesterday, our 3.5 yr old Spike had three seizures back to back all with in 7 minutes. Pretty awful looking and scary. I thought he was actually dying in front of me. His head shook crazily, he was bending over backwards while his tail curled toward him. Mucus was coming from his mouth.
I rushed him to the vet and he thankfully was alive.
After 7 hours of observation, and tests, they did not have any real diagnosis. Here is what I was told (which I may say things incorrect for I was jotting the info down and am not familiar w the jargon) and some description of what he is/has been like:

-He may have had a seizure OR a stroke'
-He is PALE; his tongue is a ghostly color gray/white (ironically I took video (yup) 10 days ago of him having his crickets since he didn't have all winter...and his tongue was very healthy looking there)
-His creatine kinase result is OVER 6000...the normal range is under 400 (I am told)
-Hi calcium levels is unusually high (which ruled out metabolic bone disease) He is over 16 (and could be higher it just didn't count higher than 16) when the normal is up to 12
-His phosphorus levels were high (don't have number)
-His Liver function is normal

-He has been lathargic for a few days leading up to it...but still ate but not his normal appetite
-He seemed and still is extremely dehydrated-Have been bathing him and feeding him water.
-Was active on and off through winter but wasn't very active the last few days leading up to seizures.
-Was very constipated the last week

Enclosure-
-Has Reptisun 10.-just ordered a new one-the last was more than 6 months
-Heat-his enclosure hot spot may not have ever reached over 97 during winter-Thought that was OK but in reading posts I see that at his age he still needs high heat-very concerned this low heat has caused any issue
-Other than that-he has water, greens, eats phoenix and repti worms, has branch limbs to climb, a pool to chill out in and a zilla bridge to rest on

SO-it the seizure sounded similar which is why I posted all of this here vs start a new thread...Any other thoughts what to do/ what is wrong?

The vet says it may be his kidneys?

Thanks-
Suzy

 

[spike5]

And I wanted to add he is not eating at all-what is the best food to give via syringe?

 

[CooperDragon]

You can feed some repta boost via syringe (it comes with one) or you can try feeding some baby foods such as chicken.

 

[spike5]

Ok-thanks!

 

[Drache613]

Hello Suzy,

Do you have a copy of the blood tests or were any done that I could see? He is a citrus leatherback, thanks.
I am glad you have a new Reptisun 10 tube bulb for him.
Did you get some food into him today?
I hope he is doing better today.

Tracie

 

[spike5]

Hi Tracie-

I don't have a copy of the blood test-I will email the vet a get all info.
I forgot to mention I am giving him .12 cc of Baytril for 14 days.
Spike ate only through a syringe yesterday -collards and romaine w water....he took it begrudgingly at first and then seemed to enjoy it.
I will feed him more today that way and soak him a ton-he seems very dehydrated and firm.
Hi color seems to be returning slightly...but he is still very black bearded...which he rarely ever was all these years. He probably is so uncomfortable ;-(

 

[spike5]

PS going to buy baby food today-was going to get veggies....any suggestions on the best type of food?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

The most liked baby food seems to be the chicken or turkey baby food, along with a squash variety, green beans or sweet potato baby food, too.
The Baytril is enough to cause the black beard. Most of them do not like it at all & it leaves their tummy upset, too.
I hope he is feeling better soon.

Tracie

 

[sammmycakes]

Let me get right down to it:

While at the pet store I help out at, I was watching the baby beardeds, all who appeared in good condition. Suddenly, though, one looked as if it was attempting to throw up, thrashing its head left and right with its mouth spread as if it were heaving, and then it collapsed and fell into an apparent seizure. It voided some liquids from its vent and its back legs stiffened; the front legs went back, as if it were swimming, and its back legs crossed over each other. From there it began thrashing and trembling, which gave away what was happening. I immediately took it out of the enclosure and could tell that it had stopped breathing; eyes closed and mouth was weakly hanging, black beard down throughout the throat and chest. I managed to revive it through vigorous massaging and very light pressure applied to the chest area, though it was obviously in pain and extremely stressed out, not wanting to open its eyes and avoiding movement. Knowing that it was alive at least, I gave it a warm soak in water and actually requested to watch it overnight, to which the reptile manager happily allowed.

I've taken to considering this little survivor a male; so far, he has been doing well in his temporary emergency enclosure. I've got a nice, hot basking lamp and UV coming down on him, and he has definitely perked up since the incident. No more black beard, though he does appear weak and tired, not wanting to move all too much but to search around and find a nice resting spot. Tried to feed, but no obvious appetite (as I expected). I noticed that he has a lack of coordination - a bit clumsy in comparison to the other babies he had been with, and he seems to want to curl his left front food underneath him, right at the wrist. A bit of limb-trembling as well and he hangs his head pretty low, preferring to scoot about rather than hold his head up. I did give him another soak, though, and he CAN hold himself up.

I'm not ruling it out, but I would be surprised if this was MBD honestly. The people at this store are pretty darn responsible for a pet shop, as responsible as a pet shop can really get. Everyone cared and jumped in on helping me when I pointed out he had seized, helping me get the bath prepared and checking in on him time to time. I know that they dust their crickets with calcium and have UV bulbs as well, 10.0 tubes. They know what they're doing, and so I'm skeptical that this would be the cause, but you never know.

So my question is, anyone think this could be neurological damage due to genetic problems or any real outside cause? Possibly because he wasn't breathing for a good 30 seconds or slightly more? What are the causes and effects of seizing? Could this be a different issue altogether? Any input is appreciated.

I have now seen two baby beardies (i work at a petstore too) go through this (almost 100% spot on situation) and our vet treated for encephalitis. It was three injections 72 hours apart. Both beardies recovered great and one is now 7 months and the other is one year.

Make sure there is nothing he could fall off of if it happens when you're not there. If you can't get him to a vet right away the biggest worry we had was if the beardies flipped onto their backs they couldn't flip themselves back over.

 

[Cenetri]

Just thought I'd give a quick update;

I took him back to the shop yesterday afternoon after giving him a tiny bit of peach baby food to try to perk him up since it was the only flavor lying around, and he seemed to enjoy lapping it up, so slurry feeding shouldn't be a problem it seems! I'm trying to find the best store nearby to buy baby food for a cheap price if he doesn't pick an appetite back up quickly. He's currently set up in a very low enclosure with no furniture, a UV tube and basking bulb by himself. He seems to be alright - we set him in with the other babies to see if he would eat anything when we tossed in some little dubias but he showed little interest. I didn't get to visit him today, but if I have the time tomorrow I intend on doing so.

spike5, the seizure sounds pretty similar, though only one occurred rather than in succession. This little guy also had mucus coming from his mouth, but the most noticeable fluid was everything he voided from his vent area. There was also a paleness I noticed in his mouth, but color seemed to come back slowly. I'm not sure of specific details on this one baby, since he really only caught my attention from the seizure and there are so many babies leaving little "presents" around all the time that I can't tell whose is whose unless I see it happen.

sammmycakes, that sounds like a real possibility and I'll bring it up to the other store employees. I could easily see swelling of the brain being an issue - one of the reptile guys was worried that it could be MBD because the tank is on the taller side, but I don't think that would be the case... the babies bask up high on a log in there nice and close to the UV and no other babies show any similar issues. He looks healthy bodyweight-wise and there are no apparent issues other than the obvious seizures and lack of coordination. I also noticed that there would be times where his coordination improved a bit, such as being able to walk in a fairly straight line and hold himself up for extended periods of time. Does this sound similar to the encephalitis cases you witnessed as well? Hopefully they will realize the value of this little life and help get him injections if this turns out to be the case - do you know what sort of price range the injections happened to be?