Please help! My beardie's eyelid has been swollen 5 weeks!

[BeardieBurrito]

As the title says, Cheech has a swollen eyelid. Emphasis on eyelid, not the eye itself. It started about 5 weeks ago with him just keeping his right eye closed for long spans of time, and I didn't think much of it for a day or two. Then I started getting worried and searched around Google and almost everything that came up was about puffy/goopy eyes, but I did find something about bad UVB bulbs and tried turning it off for a few days to no change. Then I got a bit more worried and took him to the vet, who unfortunately is not a professional on bearded dragons. She gave us some eye drops to try to bring down the swelling. No change after a couple weeks, so we went back and got a steroid cream version. Now his eyelid, over these 5 weeks, has gone from slightly puffy and bluish, to considerably swollen and blue. I'm worried what that might be as well, though I wonder if a bath will clean it off

https://m.imgur.com/X2f3Eag
https://m.imgur.com/ATXuRZW

I'm really worried about him, he's just been noticeably less active and seems unhappy at times. His appetite hasn't seemed to change, luckily; he still loves his roaches. He's also hand fed his roaches, so I'm not worried about him hunting. He's been increasingly picky the past year over veggies and never eating half of what I give him. However, his poops are pretty nasty. My sense of smell is horrible and I swear I can smell his poop sometimes. They've been looking a lot like diarrhea with lots of black chunks and the white part is not quite normal either. I don't know if this has anything to do with his eye medication or if it's from stress or diet, but I think they've been going on about the same time.

We're taking him back to the vet this week, but as much as I like the vet, I don't think she's gonna be helpful enough with Cheechie's eye problem. Google has also not been helpful enough. The only thing I haven't tried is a honey-water solution to drop in his eye, which I read should heal him if it's a bacterial infection, or something like that.

I'll add more/clearer pictures in the morning or afternoon

I don't want my poor Cheechie potentially losing his eye.

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, poor Cheech definitely has a lot of irritation in there. He's not kept on sand, is he ? That could cause irritation if it got in his eye. I agree that the vet doesn't have the answer, you might look around for an experienced reptile vet even if it means a longer drive.

For now, try raw, unpasteurized honey on it. Mix it with 3 parts water [ 1 part honey ] and use a Q-tip to gently get it in to the eye. It worked when one of my hatchlings had an eye infection that was actually more swollen than Cheech's. Do that 2-3X a day.Raw honey is a natural antimicrobial, used on any wound. Just be sure there are no loose insects hiding anywhere in the tank that would come after the honey.You might use a bit of plain sterile saline to gently work it under the eye lid in case there's some tiny speck of something under the eyelid that is causing this. Gently squirt it in there, then after a few minutes apply the honey. Just use the saline once a day though.

 

[EllenD]

Exactly what UVB light do you have for him? Brand, wattage, strength (T8 or T5 if it's a long tube), and the type, meaning is it a long tube, a regular compact bulb, or a coil/spiral bulb? And yes, what substrate do you have in the bottom of the tank?

If Antibiotics haven't helped, this may very well be photo-conjunctivitis, often caused in Beardies by inadequate bulbs, or more often the common brands or types of bulbs that are know to cause this because they emit harmful light rays...Also, what type of Basking Bulb do you use, meaning the color of the light emitted by it, and the type, compact or coil/spiral bulb?

 

[Taterbug]

Can your vet give you a referral to a more experienced exotics vet? I’d be hesitant personally to keep going back to someone with inadequate experience - professionally I’m sire they will understand.

 

[EllenD]

Can your vet give you a referral to a more experienced exotics vet? I’d be hesitant personally to keep going back to someone with inadequate experience - professionally I’m sire they will understand.

While I totally agree with what you're saying, an "Exotics" Vet is absolutely NOT the answer, as they are the ones that are causing these issues, often killing Dragons in many ways, the bottom line being they don't have any education, training, or experience in any one type of animal at all, at least not in the US. An "Exotics" Vet in the United States is a label that General Veterinarians give themselves when they are simply "Willing To See" animals other than Dogs and Cats. That's it, that's all it means in the US, they do not have to have any extra/special education, training, experience, etc. with any other types of animals, and they can call themselves an "Exotics" Vet or "Exotic Animal Hospital/Clinic" right out of Veterinary Medical School in the United States. That's the only difference between a General Vet and an Exotics Vet in the US, a General Vet is responsible enough to know that they have no extra/special education, training, or experience and are only willing to treat Dogs and Cats because those are the animals they have been educated and trained to treat.

I didn't used to think this, but I definitely do now due to what I've seen in both the Reptile and Avian owners/breeders worlds regarding Exotics Vets, and that is that Exotics Vets, the majority of them anyway, are only interested in treating/seeing as many patients as they possibly can to make money. That's it...What you have to find, if you can, is either a #1) Board Certified Reptile Vet/Herpetologist, or #2) Reptile Specialist Vet...Both of these Veterinarians see no other animals but Reptiles, just like a Certified Avian Vet or an Avian Specialist Vet only treat/see birds. They have additional education, training, and every day experience examining, diagnosing, and treating ONLY Reptiles...When you take your Bearded Dragon to most Exotics Vets or Exotic Animal Hospitals or Clinics, right before they saw your Dragon they may have see a Parrot, and then right after they may see a Rodent of some kind.

To me, the absolute best identifier of an Exotics Vet that has no idea what they are talking about with regard to a Reptile is when they walk into the exam room, ask you what's going on, you tell them, and they DON'T ASK A BUNCH OF QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR HUSBANDRY, MAYBE NOT EVEN A SINGLE QUESTION ABOUT HUSBANDRY...I find it very hard to believe that an Exotics Vet can walk into a room, simply look at a Dragon and diagnose them with a Calcium Deficiency and/or MBD simply based on what they look like or what their symptoms are, and then they simply give them a Calcium and/or Vitamin Injection and maybe prescribe a liquid Calcium supplement and maybe a nutrition replacement food, like Oxbow or Emerald, and that's it...THEY USUALLY DON'T EVEN ASK THE OWNER WHAT UVB LIGHT THEY HAVE!!! LET ALONE ASKING HOW OLD IT IS, HOW IT'S MOUNTED OR IF IT'S OBSTRUCTED BY ANYTHING, HOW FAR AWAY IT IS FROM THE BASKING SPOT, ETC. THEY ASK NOTHING ABOUT THE UVB LIGHT OR TEMPERATURES...It's like they have no idea that without proper UVB light that Dragon is just going to excrete that Calcium injection/liquid Calcium right out and not absorb any of it if they aren't under a proper UVB light...THAT'S YOUR IMMEDIATE RED-FLAG WHEN SEEING AN EXOTICS VET, IF THEY ASK NO QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR HUSBANDRY AND DIET/SUPPLEMENTS, RUN AWAY...FAST!

*****This particular situation may very well be Husbandry related, so I'm hoping the OP will post the information and photos about exactly what UVB and Basking Lights they have first, best to rule out the easy, correctable issues first before stressing the Dragon out even more and spending more money on another Vet that probably won't help at all..

 

[BeardieBurrito]

Hi there, poor Cheech definitely has a lot of irritation in there. He's not kept on sand, is he ? That could cause irritation if it got in his eye. I agree that the vet doesn't have the answer, you might look around for an experienced reptile vet even if it means a longer drive.

For now, try raw, unpasteurized honey on it. Mix it with 3 parts water [ 1 part honey ] and use a Q-tip to gently get it in to the eye. It worked when one of my hatchlings had an eye infection that was actually more swollen than Cheech's. Do that 2-3X a day.Raw honey is a natural antimicrobial, used on any wound. Just be sure there are no loose insects hiding anywhere in the tank that would come after the honey.You might use a bit of plain sterile saline to gently work it under the eye lid in case there's some tiny speck of something under the eyelid that is causing this. Gently squirt it in there, then after a few minutes apply the honey. Just use the saline once a day though.

He does have a sand pit in his tank which I covered with cardboard two or three weeks ago because he kept getting sand in/near his eye from scratching at it. Also, I should mention now that I remember that at the start of all this the first thing I noticed along with the swelling was that it looked like he scratched the part between his "eyebrow" and eyelid, with what seemed to be grains of sand, with one grain lodged in the wound. We thought he could have gotten some sand stuck in his eye, but his eye is not scratched or anything.

His last environment setup was almost all a mixture of sand and dirt. He was almost always dirty, but he loved digging and whether or not he got dust in his eye it never caused problems. Since then I changed it up and gave him mostly tile/cardboard with a sandbox to dig in and sleep in if he likes, because he loves his wood bark cave. Here's a picture of his current setup:

https://m.imgur.com/6LZiuNa

Exactly what UVB light do you have for him? Brand, wattage, strength (T8 or T5 if it's a long tube), and the type, meaning is it a long tube, a regular compact bulb, or a coil/spiral bulb? And yes, what substrate do you have in the bottom of the tank?

If Antibiotics haven't helped, this may very well be photo-conjunctivitis, often caused in Beardies by inadequate bulbs, or more often the common brands or types of bulbs that are know to cause this because they emit harmful light rays...Also, what type of Basking Bulb do you use, meaning the color of the light emitted by it, and the type, compact or coil/spiral bulb?

His UVB bulb is from ReptiSun and is the compact 10.0 13W type, not sure if it's T5 or T8. His basking bulb is a 150W (with wattage adjuster, though it's been on max for awhile) Zoo Med "traditional" style bulb that I'm guessing emits a yellowish light.

Like I said, the first thing I did was turn off his UVB light for a few days with no change. I recently decided to turn it off again for a bit longer to see if maybe I just didn't have it off long enough. His UVB light has now been off at least four days and still no change.

As for the vet, I could ask for a reference out of town, but as EllenD said, I'm a bit sceptical of taking him to some other self-proclaimed reptile expert.

I'll give him a bath early this afternoon and take another photo of his eye. I'll also go grab some unpasteurized honey and try that this afternoon, but should I use a q-tip or eyedropper to apply the solution?

 

[Taterbug]

Exotics practices separate themselves out as willing to see non-domestics, true. That doesn’t preclude them from seeking additional training to responsibly see other species of patients. In most areas there is no where near the number of clients needed to support a high quality clinic based purely on seeing reptiles. If you tell people only to see “Certified Reptile Vetrinatians” then most people will be out of luck and probably not seek treatment, being too scared that vets are out to fleece their wallets and kill their pets. So often on this forum folks actively discourage medical treatment, it’s kind of horrific.

There is a lot of anger and judgement in your post, but very little helpful information. It’s. I better to assume all vets are bad than that they are all good, it’s unfortunatly in the responsibility of owners to do some of the leg work there. It is far better to teach people how to find a good vet, what red flags there are and such, than to decry the profession as a whole as preditory and villainous. How about instead of trashing an entire profession, you give people resources on how to find a good and ethical vet? How about giving people expectations of what is needed to diagnose illness? An actual “diagnosis” of MBD that uses diagnostics will run someone probaly $200 for the visit and x-rays; vets already know that the most common ailment in captive reptiles is MBD and they know that most client will refuse diagnostics...

That said, what board exactly certifies reptile vets? Do they have a website and licensing guidelines? Are their tests and other requirements to remain certified?

All I can find in google right now is the AVBP website and if I am reading it right there are 12 active “reptile and amphibian specialists” in a total of 7 states, most of which work in either general practices or exotics practices seeing other animals besides reptiles. The certification requires 6-years practical experience as well. It sounds rigorous and like it puts out good vets but is also probaly well beyond the reach and resources of many vetrenarians who are still educated and capable of treating common pet reptiles.

 

[EllenD]

Absolutely, there is a governing body/association of licensed, certified Herp Vets in the US...

I'll tell you what, take a look at both the ER and the Health forum just for February, and read through the dozens of posts where Exotics Vets either made Dragons extremely ill by simply medicating them without doing any diagnostic tests at all and just "guessing" what was wrong with them, or medicating them on a "preventative" basis, or they actually KILLED them. I'm tired of it. And they are all "Exotics" Vets...That being said, I did say that the biggest Red Flag is an Exotics Vet that doesn't ask any questions about husbandry at all, did I not?

And everything I said about Exotics Vets in the US is completely true, it is simply a label they attach to themselves, and ALL it means is that they are "willing" to see pets other than Dogs or Cats. That's it. It does not require them to have one bit of special education, experience, or training in the US. Fully licensed, Board-Certified Reptile and Avian Vets are an entirely different animal. So like I already said, does an Exotics Vet automatically mean they don't know what they're doing? No, but very often it does, and you have to be extremely careful and take note of the questions they ask and whether or not they even mention doing any diagnostic test, because if not you need to run away. I'm sorry, but in my experience, especially my recent experience, specifically on this forum, the majority of "Exotics" Vets do way more harm than good, to the point of actually killing people's pets because they don't even know enough not to prescribe medications that are well-known to be lethal to all reptiles. I wish it wasn't true, but it is...they do far more harm to Dragons than good. Period.

*****I just want to make sure, the 13 watt Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulb that you have, IS NOT THE COIL VERSION, IS IT? I mean, is it shaped like a regular lightbulb, or does it have the spiral rods? The compact version doesn't cause any eye problems that I know of, but the Spiral version definitely does, and neither is even near strong enough for a Dragon...

Back to the OP's issue, the 13 watt Reptisun 10.0 Compact UVB bulb isn't likely causing the eye issue, however it is unfortunately a completely inadequate UVB light for a Bearded Dragon. It's a very common mistake for people to make in buying that specific UVB bulb, usually because it's either recommended by a pet shop employee, or because they have heard that the Reptisun 10.0 UVB light is one of the best available, but that only applies to the long, fluorescent tube version of the Reptisun 10.0 that is inside a tube fixture with a reflector behind the tube. Most Dragons kept under the 13 watt Reptisun 10.0 Compact UVB bulb develop Calcium Deficiencies and MBD, so you definitely want to upgrade to a long, fluorescent UVB tube and fixture with a reflector...Also, if you have the Compact Reptisun 10.0 UVB bulb on top of any type of mesh lid to the tank, it's blocking about 40% of the UVB emitted by the already far-too-weak UVB bulb...I recommend removing the mesh lid all together (if you have on blocking the compact UVB bulb) and trying to get that 13 watt Compact UVB bulb within at least 5-6" of your Dragon's Basking Spot, as for that UVB bulb to get any adequate UVB light to your Dragon it needs to be completely unobstructed and within at least 5-6" of him...

Also, that 13 watt compact UVB bulb has a very fast UVB light decay-rate, and must be replaced once every 6 months at the max, as it will not be emitting any UVB light at that age anyway, so depending on how old it is, I highly recommend not replacing it with the same bulb, but rather buying both a long, at least 22"/24" UVB tube, preferably a T5 strength UVB tube that must be at least a 10% UVB tube, or 10.0, and then a fixture that has a reflector inside it. You can buy a 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube on Amazon.com for about $25 shipped, and they also sell one 24" T5-rated (24 watt) tube fixture that comes with a reflector for about $28 shipped, so for about $60 you can buy him one of the best available UVB tubes and a fixture for it...The much weaker T8 UVB tubes also CANNOT sit on top of a mesh lid to the tank, you have to strap them to the underside of the mesh lid, and they also must be within at least 6" of the Basking Spot, and be replaced every 6 months.

In contrast, the much stronger T5 UVB tubes are strong enough to sit on top of the mesh lid as long as they are within at least 10-11" of the Basking Spot, and they only need to be replaced once every 12 months, so they save you money that way...

***As far as his eyes go, if not caused by the Spiral UVB bulb (I don't think it was, it sounds like you have the Compact, I was just making sure), then it sounds like the sand/dirt or just the sand, either one, has probably caused a re-occuring infection. All loose substrates harbor and breed tons of harmful microbes, including all types of bacteria, fungi, parasites, etc. There's really no way to keep a loose substrate clean, and while the sand may or may not have actually "scratched" his eyeball, it's quite likely that he's got a chronic infection in his eye/eye lid tissue and it keeps reinfecting his eye because the sand pit is still in his tank. I would suggest at least TRYING getting completely rid of all sand/loose substrates anywhere in the tank, then completely disinfecting the entire inside of the tank and all of the decor inside it in either F10 Disinfectant and hot water, Bleach and hot water, or red wine vinegar and hot water, and by baking anything that is either stone/rock or wood in the oven at 250 degrees for 30 minutes, as this will kill all of the microbes that are down in the porous material. Then just put down clean paper towels that can be replaced as they get soiled. At least give this a try for a month and see what happens, as Bearded Dragons are very prone to Upper Respiratory Infections, Skin/Scale infections, and Eye Infections due to microbes in loose substrates in their tanks, it's very common.

I also recommend starting to treat his eye with AHBD's suggestion, with some diluted Raw, Unpasteurized Honey at least once a day. It works better than any ophthalmic antibiotic or antifungal solution, and that's the other nice thing about the Raw, Unpasteurized Honey, it will successfully treat both a bacterial infection and/or a fungal infection, so you don't have to worry about using either/or medications. I'd give both of these a try for a month and see what the result is.

 

[Taterbug]

Absolutely, there is a governing body/association of licensed, certified Herp Vets in the US...

And that governing/licensing body is callled... what? I’m curious to look into this more, it’s news to me.

Hopefully the honey works and you see some success quickly... another month+ could mean the difference in successful treatment or something way out of control, besides that looking uncomfortable. I believe in specific Manuka honey has been shown to have medical benefits above and beyond generic raw honey.

In the mean time I would still encourage you to look for a new vet. When you call around you can ask questions of the practice, like any memberships or certifications, how many and how often they see dragons, what their intake questionares are etc to see if they are a more comfortable fit for you. There might been be someone on the board who can recommend one to you in you area.

 

[EllenD]

https://abvp.com/animal-owners/find-an-abvp-specialist/

http://members.arav.org/search/custom.asp?id=3661

The first link is The American Board of Veterinary Practitioners, which is broken down into specialties and governs over all Veterinarians in the US, but you must be qualified by education and training and then take the Licensing Board exam to be specialized in Herp Medicine... the second link the The Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians...

Below is an abstract discussing some of what is required to become a Board-Certified Reptile Vet in the United States...

ww.lib.ncsu.edu/vetmed/boards/ABVP/reptile

I was planning on going to Veterinary Medical School, I got my BS in Health Science and my MS in Animal Health Science first. Then I started working at Penn State's Animal Diagnostic Laboratory, started acquiring debt that I had to pay for, lol, but then was diagnosed with endometrial cancer, so that shot the entire thing to hell...Anyway, i actually wanted to become a Board Certified Avian Vet, it's exactly the same situation with Avian Vets, because the exact same "Exotics" Vets that are treating Bearded Dragons are also treating Birds, as Certified Avian Vets are also few and far between, but not nearly as few and far between as Certified Reptile Vets are...Anyway, this applies only to the US, I don't know what the licensing laws/requirements are in the UK or Australia; it's quite possible that an "Exotics" Vet means something completely different in other countries than it does in the United States, but unfortunately here it simply designates a General Vet that is willing to see and treat animals other than Dogs and Cats (and actually also livestock/farm animals)...

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

EllenD wrote:
And everything I said about Exotics Vets in the US is completely true, it is simply a label they attach to themselves, and ALL it means is that they are "willing" to see pets other than Dogs or Cats. That's it.

I entirely agree with you, definitely just a label. I haven't exactly had "bad" experienced with my exotic vet that i go to but the experiences are enough for me to be a bit scared that he'll do something that would seriously hurt my reptiles by giving them the wrong treatment.

First time I brought a reptile there, he listed her/him as a actual Turtle... also listed him/her as a male although we have no idea what the gender is. He didnt ask me about the setup of course for it, he gave me a random care sheet he found online about BTS's. Only thing he really did that was "correct" is give me the proper amount of medicine needed to treat her pinworms, and tell me she had a ruptured rib cage... though he didn't offer X-rays which I was more than willing to get done to see the damage on her.

The second time was with my tegu for parasites and possible MBD. Somehow they marked her as an iguana... we didnt even mention anything about an iguana or any other reptile. They also listed her as male... so at this point i'm sure they just mark any reptile as male because they also marked Venus as a male when I went for a fecal test.
He wasn't very knowledgeable on the species, didn't ask for setup info, diet info, didn't even go over my concern of MBD with her just gave me parasite meds after doing a fecal test for pinworms. Luckily she doesn't have MBD at all, it was just the cold that was making her a bit stiff in the legs. Or at least thats what I'm going with because within a few days of her being with us she began walking normal.

Third time was for Venus and Saturn, luckily only a fecal test and getting meds for pinworms, of course they marked both as male. Although this time they finally got the species correct.

Luckily I have two actual reptile vets nearby, and thats where I plan to take my reptiles to when they need anything other than a fecal test as the exotic vet's fecal test is 20 dollars and meds are 8 dollars... although I'm sure in the future he'll be a pain for that as even if the reptile has a low count he'll still try to treat it.

http://www.anapsid.org/vets/#vetlist
This is a pretty good site for finding reptile vets in your area.

 

[EllenD]

I'm extremely lucky as I have both a Certified Reptile Vet and a Certified Avian Vet within 10 minutes of my house, which is extremely rare, but honestly after what I've seen people going through with these Exotics Vets, I think it's absolutely worth a drive of a few hours one-way to get to either a Certified Reptile Vet or an experienced Reptile Specialist that ONLY sees/treats reptiles, as it can literally be the difference between your Dragon living and dying if you don't have a medical education or a lot of Dragon experience. And that's what we're seeing a lot of, first-time Dragon owners who are completely trusting these Exotics Vets because they don't know any better...and why wouldn't they trust them, they're Veterinarians, right? I just really feel that this label of being an "Exotics" Vet in this country is very, very misleading and totally unfair to use, especially when the Vet doesn't even know how to sex a Dragon, doesn't know anything at all about their habitat or husbandry, and doesn't at all understand anything about their anatomy or physiology. It's just not right.

As far as treating your reptiles for parasites, don't get me wrong, there are many times when it's totally necessary to medicate them...It just seems like running a fecal test is the only diagnostic test these Exotics Vets know how to do, and as soon as they see any "positive" results, regardless of the count/load or whether or not the Dragon is displaying any signs or symptoms of the parasites effecting them or not, they just automatically medicate, overmedicate, and medicate incorrectly, and that's where this "label" becomes very irresponsible and dangerous. You definitely have to advocate for your Dragons, because they can't advocate for themselves, and that means you've got to educate yourself about the medications, the conditions, the tests, etc. And that's a lot for people without any type of previous medical or reptile background to have to be responsible for...that's the issue I have...

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

Speaking of sexing bearded dragons, my exotic vet also said he had to pop a bearded dragon before. Which from my understanding can be quite dangerous, even for snakes. I didn't exactly say anything to him about how stupid that was when you can clearly lift the tail up to see the sex but I'm starting to wish I had when he said something.

 

[BeardieBurrito]

Based on the general consensus in this thread, I'm going to treat him for an infection and use a dropper to apply the honey solution. Idk if a dropper or q-tip is best, but he doesn't like keeping that eye open longer than a second, so I'm going with a dropper. I'll be going to the store after this.

I don't think it's his light, as it's a very common brand (I check reviews before buying, too) and he's had the same type I'm pretty sure his whole life. It's not the spiral type, it's the CFL U-shape type. Yes it sits on top of a mesh screen, but I have cats who'd love to get inside, so that's not changing, and like I said, it's never caused problems before. His eye just happened to get this way shortly after I changed his setup, so that's the clue I'm following.

His diet is also mostly roaches and he gets to sit in the window occasionally and his UVB light is on all day, so I don't think I need to worry about calcium deficiency or MBD.

Nothing like this happened until I changed his terrarium and gave him a sandbox. Despite the sand/dirt mixture he previously had didn't cause him health problems, I can definitely see the sand doing so as he's pooped in it several times. I scooped out as much as I could when he did, but I don't doubt I missed some and that sounds like the most likely cause. He most likely got a dirty grain of sand in his eye or near enough to cause an infection. So that's what I'm going to treat him for for the time being.

Thanks for the help, everyone. I'll post updates with any changes or if nothing happens.

 

[BeardieBurrito]

Here's some better photos of his eye. I took out a 45X magnifying lense and took a closer look. I couldn't tell if I was seeing any sand grains left on his lid, but the coloration definitely doesn't look normal, and it wasn't there 3-4 weeks ago.

I gave him an application of honey-water. He occasionally opens his right eye when he's more alert, but he seemed to open his eye a bit more after I gave him the solution. Though I wonder if, when fresh, it just makes him temporarily more comfortable. Anyway, I'll keep up on the applications.