Older beardies and mineralized deposits in gall bladder area

[utahrapture]

I'm posting this to see if anyone else has had experience with this, as even the vets are not entirely sure what to make of it all. I am currently taking care of a 7 and a half year old beardie I raised as a baby who now has mineralized deposits in his gall bladder along with a growing heptic (liver) tumor that appears to be benign. He also has a newer growth or swollen kidney or testicle in his lower right side that is being aspirated tomorrow. The mineralized deposits showed up in his CT scan, but this is a very odd coincidence (or not) for me, as a little more then a year ago, I had a different beardie from a completely different subspecies even who had a large mineralized gall stone in her gall bladder that was discovered during a surgery two years prior to that. Amazingly, she lived strong for another two years after that, but the surgery to remove her gall bladder proved to be to much, and it was her time as her liver was so scarred and poor it could not handle the anestesthia and she passed peacefully. Now I'm faced with all this again, though he does not have a gall stone the way she had, but the same symptoms. Constipation (possibly associated with pressure from the new mass) and labored breathing at times...and roughly the same age. He had blood work done probably about a month ago that looks normal. It's all very, very unusual happenings it seems, but two beardies in two years to have something like this? Is anyone else noticing or having these issues with older bearded dragons? The vet said the community hasn't seen enough 7 year old dragons to make a real study off of what I was originally told was a very rare circumstance for lizards (gall stones), so I'm looking for anyone who may be able to give some more info or experience.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Geez, sorry to hear that.
What type of diet are you feeding? That is not a normal thing to happen.
Could I see a copy of the blood test been just to look it over, if you can get a copy of it?
So the biopsy is being tested for cancer, correct?
Lasers could break up some of those gallstones & make it easier to pass through.
Does he possibly have pregout symptoms?

Tracie

 

[utahrapture]

I was thinking diet myself, but it's nothing abnormal. Various greens and fruits when he would eat them, and baby food when he wouldn't, some mealworms or crickets occasionally, but I have decided to put him on a liquid diet pretty much for the rest of his life like I did with Max when she was at this point. Carnivore Critical care and baby food with supplements mixed in, he likes it so that's still a plus that he has an active appetite. It's also to the point now that I will be taking him into the vet for weekly enemas and palpations, as he didn't pass stool for two weeks until his last visit last Friday. And I'm capable of giving him smaller enemas, but when it comes to anything more, I'd rather let the pros handle him. They're not sure, but are guessing the mass is starting to expand quicker and may be starting to do what I feared quicker and pinching. But he's still passing at least and wants to eat. They did a fine needle aspirate, and without a full abdomen surgical biopsy they cannot determine the exact nature of the tumor. It appears to be one of four types of heptic cancer, three of which are benign, and given his good state of health otherwise since discovering this in January, that appears to be the case. I went in Friday to have this other mass aspirated (the one on the lower side), and they thought it may be a better idea to save my money for a possible surgery instead. It wouldn't do anything other then tell what it is, and without surgery that won't do a whole lot of good but put me out another $100. As for the mineralized deposits, it is a mystery. I'm wondering if there may be something in the water perhaps, fluoride can lead to calcium deposits in humans in their pineal glands I know. And according to the one vet I talked to, their nature of being desert animals shouldn't leave them susceptible to such a thing from dehydration. I will see what I can do about getting some transcripts to you, or getting it myself so I can post it here. For the time being, it's going to be just hanging out with him feeding, and doing the enemas weekly to keep him comfortable, but at some point, I'll have to decide if I can afford the surgery, which may be possible. Hopefully he'll hang in there for a little bit without anything drastic being needed. It's also a matter of if the surgery will only find something inoperable and letting him go while still under, which is not something I want to decide right now, it's happened rather quickly in the last couple weeks, I wish I would have prepared myself better. I'm lucky to have an extraordinarily great vet school at the UW Madison, and really don't feel I could have much of a better team of doctors to help out, I'll have to ask about the possibility about the laser treatment...they are up to radical approaches sometimes. Thanks for the help! What are pregout symptoms?

 

[utahrapture]

I just found your posting on gout, and don't see anything like that on him, and didn't on Max. But I'm assuming uric acid counts would be a real possible indicator of something abnormal, so I'll ask specifically about that. Thanks.

 

[utahrapture]

Is there a email address through this site or something I could give the doctor this Friday for you Tracie? Thank you.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I PM'd you my email address. Thanks I appreciate it.
Well, technically they are not true desert animals, though they can live in more semi-arid regions but tend to primarily inhabit arid regions. They do have specialized kidneys which allow their body to preserve water instead of excreting it. However though, they still can & do get gout quite often.
Also, kidney problems can also be caused by inbreeding as well.
You are right, flouride & other chemicals can wreak havoc on us so definitely it is a possibility that it could cause problems with him. Do you use a water filter? Flouride is a pioson & very dangerous.

Let me know how he is doing. I hope that it is a benign tumor & that there is a way of safely removing it without internal injury. Too bad it came on so quickly like this. Liver cancer huh? I hope that it is benign. At least he appears to be in good health right now.

Tracie

 

[utahrapture]

It's a very large tumor, and one of the concerns is that going through surgery they would only fine it inoperable because it is to adhered to organs. It was about the size of a small rubber ball in January, and now is more like one and a half oblong funsize snickers bars (i don't know why my descriptions are candy and toys!). The hope was it would just take it's time and fill the body cavity without any problems, but they can also not tell for sure that it is causing the constipation. The type of heptic cancer they described stays local to the organ and does not spread through the blood, and due to him looking pretty well still and not sickly, I'm hoping it is truly a benign tomorrow after two months of observation. But currently, yes, he is still in reasonably good health, still enjoys being with me and eating the liquid diet, still likes to run around and such, and spends the rest of the day basking. I wish I would have thought of filtering the water years ago, wonder if it would have prevented anything. I would use the blue de-chlorinator sometimes, but he rarely drinks out of his bowl, so any water he drank probably had all those great chemicals we all probably forget we're drinking.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Luke,

Well, I can understand the entire dilema! I am sorry, it sounds like a situation that doesn't have any easy answers, for sure. Operating only to find it is attached to several organs would be good to know so you can deal with the situation. However, would knowing make things any easier if it could not be dislodged & removed?
Good you are hanging in there with him, he needs the support. So he enjoys his liquid diet. You don't give any feeders, right?
If it cannot be removed, all you can do is enjoy the time he has left & when his health declines, you have to make the tough decision if he begins to suffer.
I am hoping something can be done though. You know, I doubt that the water would be the cause of this. Most tumors are caused by virus' but, can still be affected by food & water intake. It is impossible to control absolutely everything but we all do need to be aware of what is in our food & water & what goes into them, too.
I am sorry you are having to go through this. I will help any way I can.

Tracie

 

[utahrapture]

I believe they are looking at the tumor and the mineralized deposits they saw in the CT scan as two seperate conditions. It is also hard to tell if there is any relation due to cancer such as this and even more so, the deposits, being rare and not much being known about them. The tough decision about just going ahead and doing the surgery is that if I suddenly decided to do it next week, and the prognosis was not good, it would be better to let him go while he is still under, which is not something I have prepared myself for. What he's been kind of telling me is he is starting to feel more pain, but is still content with life, he still is active and showing interest in me, but for the most part, has been hanging out and just basking. I'm noticing a difference since it was diagnosed two months ago, but...considering the enemas at the vet are working, he will hopefully be able to live pretty comfortably, I will feel blessed if I could spend one more summer with him (raised him from a baby!). So I'll keep you posted, currently, the least invasive procedure necessary feels like the right one...and $500-$750 isn't something easy to justify if it may just cause more problems for him and just be a painful diagnostic procedure. As you said, no easy answers!

 

[Drache613]

Hello Luke,

No, that is not easy. It isn't fun to have to prepare yourself for not having him around, either. If he is still doing well, you still have time with him. When do you think you will decide on the surgery?
I guess the mineral deposits would affect his kidneys while the tumor is on or around his liver. The mineral deposits are not real common no & usually when they have or get problems like that they will have kidney problems or gout. Tumors are fairly common it seems.
I hope that you can come to some decision soon. I will keep you two in my thoughts. I am happy to hear that he still is somewhat active & enjoys basking too.

Tracie

 

[utahrapture]

I'm glad you brought up the gout, that was unknown to me prior, so I will keep an eye out for that. I think probably I will make the decision when it just seems like the right time, it could be next week, it could be a month. I guess I also have to realistically look at a way to do it without draining my savings as well, I'm only 25, but have options and will put stuff up on ebay and such, vacation hours, etc. Last time I had just happened to be selling a $1,000 guitar amp that funded the operation, so it was no big snuff...didn't think twice about doing it. And the only reason really I'm deciding whether or not to do it...is for the reason I mentioned, if it doesn't look good in there and it's better to let him go while still under is a very difficult choice if he looks like he is still enjoying life right now. Last time I was better prepared for this...because it had been a rollercoaster up and down for two years, I took the news kind of heavy in January and let it seep in the wrong way I guess, he's my best friend pretty much since high school. But it's a day by day thing I know, I've seen it before in animal's and human's lives so right now things are as good as they can be with this situation...really, he's still himself and is hanging in there. He's always loved Carnivore Care, actually seems to like it better then "real food", and syringe feeding has always been a good way to spend more personal time with beardies for me. Thanks for your thoughts Tracie.

 

[utahrapture]

I will also add that since his last vet visit with the successful enema, he has been much more perky and attentive, looking genuinely happy, so it is my hope that for the time being, the constipation was causing more discomfort then anything, and he'll be able to continue this way with the weekly enemas and palpations. Also, having a qualified vet be able to see him weekly is a huge plus.