nutrition, dusting frequency, black soldier fly laravae

[ashleyelsha]

Alright I would like to know how often to dust which supplements when I feed black soldier fly larvae as a daily staple. I am currently feeding a combination of both phoenix worms and reptiworms. My bearded dragon will eat around 18-22 large phoenix worms and 8-12 large reptiworms per feeding. He also has daily greens which he rarely touches. When I was feeding crickets I had bought calcium with D3, calcium without D3, and multivitamin dust. I was doing daily calcium dusting and Calcium with D3 twice a week, multivitamin once a week.

With the reptiworms should I just do a multivitamin once or twice a week and that will be enough? If I ever give him any other treats such as crickets or other worms but still feed reptiworms some time during the day do I need to dust any calcium or calcium with D3?
I don't dust his veggies since he rarely eats them, I dust the feeders instead.

Thanks for any input or advice anyone can give on this.

EDIT- just so you know, the supplements I have are Hagen Exo Terra Reptile Multi-Vitamin, Zoo Med Reptile Calcium without Vitamin D3, and zoo med reptile calcium with vitamin D3.

 

[ashleyelsha]

anybody?

 

[Kaiser]

You will not have to dust the black soldier fly larvae with any of the calcium. If you do a mix of black soldier fly larvae and crickets during the week, just base it on the idea that it's typically recommended (opinions on dusting may vary) to dust with calcium five feedings a week, and on separate days. Note that Phoenix Worms and ReptiWorms have an ideal calcium-to-phosphorous ratio, while dusting crickets with calcium can result in an excess in the calcium-to-phosphorous ratio. Therefore, if you are following the dust with calcium five feedings a week schedule, just keep in mind that the Phoenix Worms and ReptiWorms are the perfect ratio (not over, not under), and dusting crickets can result in a ratio that is over. So try to dust with balance.

I understand that this isn't really a clear-cut answer, but hopefully it gives you some insight on calcium-to-phosphorous ratio of the feeders so you can better find a balance that works for your bearded dragon.

Also, if you're curious about the difference between calcium with or without D3, just know that you typically want to use the calcium powder without D3 if you are you are using a mercury vapor(MVB) bulb for UVB. If you are using anything other than a MVB, use calcium powder with D3.

Regardless of what you feed during the week (whether it is a combination of black soldier fly larvae and crickets), you will need to supplement with vitamins (the amount of dustings with vitamins varies in opinion, but I would say most people would recommend one feeding a day, two days out of the week).

 

[ashleyelsha]

Thanks so much, that really does help. I will use the multivitamin for one feeding twice a week and skip the calcium. I have a reptisun 10.0 bulb so that should be sufficient for vitamin D metabolism? I might use calcium with D3 whenever I buy crickets or other feeders to supplement.

 

[ashleyelsha]

I was reading around articles and forums and found a few arguments that the black soldier fly larvae is only as high in calcium as the diet it is fed, and after 36 hours the nutrition content goes back to normal. I really don't know what to make of this. It kind of makes sense that they will lose nutrition as they sit on the shelf to some extent. The lab analysis that the websites advertize are most likely done on larvae that have recently eaten and we are getting larvae and keeping them on a shelf or cooler for weeks at a time. So it just makes me want to rethink my dusting approach.

I really am considering switching to frozen roaches and just dusting with calcium 5x a week and multivitamins twice a week. (one feeding each day). seems like it will be cheaper in the long run.

 

[Kaiser]

No problem. Just find a nice, safe balance of dusting. Overdusting can be just as dangerous as not dusting enough. If you're using a Reptisun 10.0 UVB tube type bulb, if you ever need to supplement with calcium, you should generally use the one with D3. That is, if you need to supplement with calcium.

As for your second concern, mind if I ask for a link (or links) to those articles and/or forums? It sounds interesting, and was not something I knew was well-documented or researched. When I first started using ReptiWorms for my bearded dragon, I thought to ask the same question to the company; I too thought that the nutritional content would diminish over time, as the larvae were not eating anything for extended periods of time. So I asked them about this, and this was their response:

"The nutritional value of the [soldier] fly should not diminish over time as...long as the worm is not drying out in their bucket. [Their] weight stays constant."

Again, this was their response, and I did not know there was other information out there regarding the nutritional content of the black soldier fly larvae over time. So unfortunately, that's all I had to go off on; no analyses or anything, just their word.

If it means anything to you, I have been feeding my bearded dragon ReptiWorms as a staple for over a year and a half now (starting from when he was only a month old, so he pretty much grew up on them), and I usually buy in bulk (5000 per order, kept for one to three months, depending on his age and how much he ate). He's perfectly healthy and happy at over 21 inches in length, with the girth to match. No additional calcium dusting (except when using other feeders on occasion), and he has no health issues. So I would assume the nutritional content remains relatively fixed.

Otherwise, it'd be interesting to see those articles and forums and what they're basing their information on.

 

[ashleyelsha]

I was reading one particular old discussion on one site when I googled about black soldier fly larvae. There were no legitimate articles on the subject I could find except for what was advertised by the companies... If I can find any again I will post the links but nothing was based on research so I was just asking here to try and get the best information possible.
I think I will keep feeding the reptiworms and supplement with other feeders as necessary . I'm still interested in trying some frozen roaches, really hoping they have some at the next repticon

 

[Kaiser]

Oh, okay. If you come across it again, it'd be interesting to read it. If not, then no worries. Always good to see what other people think. Unfortunately, reptiles are still considered some of the more unconventional pets, and not as much is known about them and how to care for them when compared to the more common household pet. So it's always a learning process. Could be interesting if anyone decided to get a nutritional content analysis on one of the larvae after being kept with no food over an extended period of time.

If anything, it couldn't hurt to try the frozen roaches out. Hope you get a hold of some and give it a shot.

 

[ashleyelsha]

here is one of the discussions I was reading:

http://thetegu.com/showthread.php?10611-Phoenix-worms-%28black-soldier-fly-larvae%29

 

[Kaiser]

Hmm, that's very interesting. The poster does make some good points. Now it's gotten me curious. Perhaps I'll have to contact them and ask for more specifics. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ashleyelsha]

yeah like I said, it's not like a legitimate article or anything, but someone pointing out some things that make you wonder. I've read some places that supplementing with pelleted food is also a good idea, as long as the pelleted food is good quality. When we visit zoo's and such a lot of time the animals are on a diet that has both a pellet based food and fresh foods. The idea behind it is because there is no possible way we can give an animal in captivity everything it would be able to get from it's natural environment.

 

[Spikey07]

I feed my beardies a mixture of large phoenix worms and locust as a staple. I also give them butterworms, and the occasional wax worm as treats.

I do not dust the phoenix worms with anything. As to not over supplement, I then dust 1/2 of the locusts they get with a mix of Repcal Calcium with D3 and Repcal Herptivite (mixed at a ratio of 3.1 calcium with D3/herptivite).

 

[ashleyelsha]

I feed my beardies a mixture of large phoenix worms and locust as a staple. I also give them butterworms, and the occasional wax worm as treats.

I do not dust the phoenix worms with anything. As to not over supplement, I then dust 1/2 of the locusts they get with a mix of Repcal Calcium with D3 and Repcal Herptivite (mixed at a ratio of 3.1 calcium with D3/herptivite).

Thanks, this is all very helpful. I feel like I am asking a lot of questions on the forum but I am just trying to research and learn as much as I can based on others experience.