Not sure what is wrong?

[Sassy123]

I have a young beardie, best age guess would be close to 3 months old, in the past week and half ago, he started eating strange. He would eat normal, but then he wouldn’t. Sometimes he ate only a few worms, then he would eat normal next meal. That was the first few days, t wasn’t that concerning at first, but then after a few days of this, he started eating less and less, until he was barely eating anything each day. I’ve been offering food regularly (3 times a day) but he doesn’t seem interested at all. Some days he eats more then others, like yesterday he ate 9 worms in the morning, about 6 for lunch, but then next to nothing for dinner! This morning though, he ate 1 worm, then wouldn’t touch anything else. He started to get skinny. He was originally in a 40 gallon bioactive tank (which I suspect was the problem), so on Wednesday, I finally decided to do some switching tanks around. It was a bit of a dilemma, because I only have 3 tanks, all of them occupied. My other two tanks are each a 20 gallon (houses my adult leopard gecko), and a 10 gallon (houses my juvenile leopard gecko). So I improvised, I placed a divider in my 20 gallon, and fixed it so that both my geckos are in that tank, and I fixed the 10 gallon tank for Mushu. So he went in that tank, and the first two days, he improved, gained some weight back. He was still eating strange, but he was eating more. But just today and yesterday, he went back to barely eating. He acts pretty lethargic too, although that improved somewhat. So I had some questions, and one idea that I wanted to see what you guys thought of?
Question 1: What is wrong? Infection?
Question 2: Should I take him to a vet?
Idea: I am in the process of seeing if I can fix the bioactive tank so that it works properly. I have two outcomes. If the bioactive tank kicks in and starts working properly, I think I will put my adult Leo in that tank. She is a good strong healthy adult, who would probably be able to handle the environment. Mushu would go into the 20 gallon tank, and my other leo would go back to his 10 gallon. I was thinking that, once Mushu grew older and larger, (too big for the 20) could I move him back into the 40 bioactive tank? And if the tank doesn’t work, or start cleaning properly, then I will just ditch the bioactive setup.
Thanks in advance, sorry for the super long post! I wasn’t sure how to write it all in a short post!

 

[Gormagon]

It sounds like there are a couple of issues here.
First issue.... Mealworms cause impaction in dragons, they are not a good staple feeder .
Second issue...... Lighting is the most important part of a dragons daily life. Without proper lighting, they won't eat, act lethargic and, eventually develope irreversible health issues.
We need a bit more information about your setup.
What type and brand of UVB are you using?
What are the temperature readings (basking spot, warm end, cool end)?
How do you get these readings?
These are very necessary questions to aid, in answering your question!

 

[Sassy123]

It sounds like there are a couple of issues here.
First issue.... Mealworms cause impaction in dragons, they are not a good staple feeder .
Second issue...... Lighting is the most important part of a dragons daily life. Without proper lighting, they won't eat, act lethargic and, eventually develope irreversible health issues.
We need a bit more information about your setup.
What type and brand of UVB are you using?
What are the temperature readings (basking spot, warm end, cool end)?
How do you get these readings?
These are very necessary questions to aid, in answering your question!

I don’t feed him mealworms, I feed him Phoenix worms.
His heat lamp is a 150 watt Exo Terra Day Heat bulb, I use a thermometer probe to check the temperature of his hot spot. Hot spot, stays at about 107 degrees, cool side stays at about 80. I’m using a t8 UVB rod (can’t remember the brand, I will check soon) with a good report.

 

[EllenD]

It sounds like the start of a calcium deficiency, most likely due to using a T8 strength UVB tube and having it on top of a mesh lid. The mesh blocks at least 40% of the UVB light, and T8 tubes are just not strong enough to penetrate adequate UVB light to your dragon on the other side of the mesh (T5 tubes are strong enough). At best your T8 tube is only 15 watts, so that's your problem. You need to poke holes in the mesh with a Utility Knife or Shears and then use long, plastic Zip Ties, Wire, Twine, Shoelaces, etc. to strap the entire tube fixture to the underside of the mesh lid, over the Hot side of the tank, leaving room for the Basking Bulb to sit right alongside the tube so that they are both sharing the top of the Hot Side of the tank. Then place his Basking Platform right directly under both bulbs within the Hot Side, so he gets both lights at the same time while basking.

Also, the Basking Spot must be high enough to be at least within 6" of a T8 strength UVB tube or adequate UVB and UVA light will not reach him.

Be sure you are dusting all of the worms in one feeding per day in calcium 5 days a week, and the same with the multivitamin 3 days a week.

The T8 tube must be replaced once every 6 months.

And please put him back in the 40 Gallon Breeder tank and get his 3 temperature zones within the correct ranges again using either a Temperature Gun or a Digital Probe Thermometer, as you cannot keep a Dragon in a 10 gallon tank, even a 20 gallon is tough, because it's impossible to get all 3 temperature ranges correct. In a 10 gallon tank it's hard to get more than 1 temperature zone, and being desert reptiles they need very specific temp ranges/gradient inside their tank. The large tank is not the issue, the issue is that he's not getting any adequate UVB light.

Once you get that T8 UVB tube under the mesh lid and within at least 6" of him, and leave both the UVB tube and the basking light on each day for at least 13-14 hours, his appetite will perk right back up. But be sure to replace that T8 tube at 6 months old on the dot, or this will happen again.

Luckily you've caught this early enough that he's not experienced any physical problems, but it can happen so quickly with dragons if the UVB/UVA light is not adequate or adequately mounted.

ALSO, PLEASE CHECK THAT THERE IS NO CLEAR, PLASTIC COVER ON THE BOTTOM OF YOUR TUBE FIXTURE THAT IS COVERING THE UVB TUBE!!!! Some of the companies, specifically Zilla, put a clear plastic safety cover on their tube fixtures and this blocks ALL of the UVB light, 100% of it, as no UVB light can penetrate glass or clear plastic.

 

[EllenD]

Just an FYI, you want to think about spending around $50-$60 when that T8 tube is 6 months old, get onto Amazon.com (cheapest place we've found to buy both), and order a 22" or 34" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube, and then either a 24" or 36" tube fixture for it that is rated for a T5 UVB tube at 24 watts and that has a built-in reflector that comes with it (the cheapest T5 rated 24" tube fixture with a reflector cost about $28 on Amazon.com, and the 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube costs around $24 on Amazon.com, both are shipped prices).

The T5 tube is a 24 watt tube and is strong enough to sit on top of the mesh lid, as long as the tube is within at least 10-11" of his basking spot/platform. And the T5 UVB tubes are good for 10 months to a year, so you actually will save a lot of money over time by upgrading to a T5 tube. This is what most experienced Bearded Dragon owners and breeder use because it emits UVB and UVA light that is at least twice as strong as any of the T8 tubes, and it's just a better light for any desert reptile, especially a Bearded Dragon. As you can see, their lives quite literally depend upon 13-14 hours of very strong UVB and UVA light every single day. All of their bodily functions depend upon very specific temperature ranges and adequate exposure to the correct strength and wavelengths of light, so the T5 tubes are just extra protection. There's nothing wrong with the T8 tubes IF THEY ARE TOTALLY UNOBSTRUCTED AND VERY CLOSE TO THE DRAGON, AND REPLACED EVERY 6 MONTHS AT MOST, but otherwise you can see what happens.

 

[Sassy123]

It sounds like the start of a calcium deficiency, most likely due to using a T8 strength UVB tube and having it on top of a mesh lid. The mesh blocks at least 40% of the UVB light, and T8 tubes are just not strong enough to penetrate adequate UVB light to your dragon on the other side of the mesh (T5 tubes are strong enough). At best your T8 tube is only 15 watts, so that's your problem. You need to poke holes in the mesh with a Utility Knife or Shears and then use long, plastic Zip Ties, Wire, Twine, Shoelaces, etc. to strap the entire tube fixture to the underside of the mesh lid, over the Hot side of the tank, leaving room for the Basking Bulb to sit right alongside the tube so that they are both sharing the top of the Hot Side of the tank. Then place his Basking Platform right directly under both bulbs within the Hot Side, so he gets both lights at the same time while basking.

Also, the Basking Spot must be high enough to be at least within 6" of a T8 strength UVB tube or adequate UVB and UVA light will not reach him.

Be sure you are dusting all of the worms in one feeding per day in calcium 5 days a week, and the same with the multivitamin 3 days a week.

The T8 tube must be replaced once every 6 months.

And please put him back in the 40 Gallon Breeder tank and get his 3 temperature zones within the correct ranges again using either a Temperature Gun or a Digital Probe Thermometer, as you cannot keep a Dragon in a 10 gallon tank, even a 20 gallon is tough, because it's impossible to get all 3 temperature ranges correct. In a 10 gallon tank it's hard to get more than 1 temperature zone, and being desert reptiles they need very specific temp ranges/gradient inside their tank. The large tank is not the issue, the issue is that he's not getting any adequate UVB light.

Once you get that T8 UVB tube under the mesh lid and within at least 6" of him, and leave both the UVB tube and the basking light on each day for at least 13-14 hours, his appetite will perk right back up. But be sure to replace that T8 tube at 6 months old on the dot, or this will happen again.

Luckily you've caught this early enough that he's not experienced any physical problems, but it can happen so quickly with dragons if the UVB/UVA light is not adequate or adequately mounted.

ALSO, PLEASE CHECK THAT THERE IS NO CLEAR, PLASTIC COVER ON THE BOTTOM OF YOUR TUBE FIXTURE THAT IS COVERING THE UVB TUBE!!!! Some of the companies, specifically Zilla, put a clear plastic safety cover on their tube fixtures and this blocks ALL of the UVB light, 100% of it, as no UVB light can penetrate glass or clear plastic.

I have the rod on the inside of the tank within 6 inches of his basking spot. The wattage is 24 watts.
I do dust his food with calcium and a multivitamin. There is no clear plastic cover on my tube fixture. The tank is bioactive, so I think it was bad bacteria, not UVB, he was getting the proper amount of uvb. T8 tune inside tank, within 6 inches of basking spot

 

[EllenD]

If it's a 24 watt tube then it's most likely not a T8 tube, but rather a T5 tube. I apologize, you said you were using a T8 tube and I've never seen a T8 tube over 17 watts, and that's the Arcadia 10% T8, while all of the others are only 15 watts, including the Reptisun 10.0. Had you said it was 24 watts then I would not have written all of that out, lol. Sorry.

You also didn't mention that it was a Bioactive substrate. That's absolutely the problem then. Every single dragon that I've seen anyone on here post about that was in a Bioactive Tank had this issue, every single one (probably around 5-7 posts with the same symptoms and issues as your dragon is having, and all of them cleared up as soon as they were removed from the Bioactive substrate and put into a regular Dragon set-up with a solid substrate). So had I read the Bioactive substrate I would have said nothing else. It's always the culprit.

There are 2 major issues with using a Bioactive tank for a Dragon...The first and main issue is that it's totally opposite what their natural habitat is, and especially with younger dragons that are under a year old, the Bioactive substrates seem to really overwhelm them at lot. It's totally unnatural for them to be living in that type of substrate, and it's the clutter that seems to just stress them out completely. And the second issue is just what you mention, Dragons are very prone to microbial infections, and unfortunately Bioactive tanks are breeding grounds for bacteria, fungi, parasites, etc. Many of the Dragons that have been posted on the forum that were living in a Bioactive tank have developed Upper Respiratory Infections, depending on exactly what you use in your Bioactive Substrate, and then also eye infections, and a lot of skin/scale infections that are both bacterial and fungal.

Bottom line is that though Bioactive tanks work well for some species of reptiles and amphibians, they just don't work with Bearded Dragons. And I'm not basing this on any scientific study or journal article, I'm basing it on 2 years of being on this forum and seeing every single Dragon that has been on a Bioactive Substrate stop eating as the first symptom of stress or infection, followed soon by lethargy or the exact opposite, they start just freaking out and being very frantic all the time, and eventually if the Bioactive substrate isn't removed (a few people have absolutely refused to remove the Bioactive substrates, insisting that it's not the problem, even though their Dragon has been sick and not eating for sometimes months and losing large amounts of weight, and despite vet visits, fecals, etc. being negative) the dragon will die, there was one member who had their young dragon finally pass away from a combination of dehydration and starvation, and up until the end they refused to believe it was the Bioactive tank, and even said they were going to get another baby dragon and were going to keep it on a Bioactive substrate, as a sort of "I'm going to prove you all wrong" kind of stance....It's simply not worth it. That's the bottom line.

Again I apologize for writing up the typical T8 UVB tube primer that I did, but again, I assumed when you said you were using a T8 tube that it was the typical 15 watt one on top of the mesh. I'm very glad you got your dragon out of the Bioactive tank and into a normal Dragon habitat.

 

[Sassy123]

.... He was originally in a 40 gallon bioactive tank (which was the problem), so on Wednesday, I finally decided to do some switching tanks around.
I did mention it. But I agree that the bio activity was the problem. But he is now in a clean tank, but is still having issues. Should I take him the the vet?

 

[EllenD]

.... He was originally in a 40 gallon bioactive tank (which was the problem), so on Wednesday, I finally decided to do some switching tanks around.
I did mention it. But I agree that the bio activity was the problem. But he is now in a clean tank, but is still having issues. Should I take him the the vet?

My bad, I didn't see the Bioactive tank part...I'm having a bad day, lol. Pipe froze in my wall and burst 6" of water all over my first 2 floors. I'm not happy...

How long has he been in the newly clean tank?

 

[Sassy123]

Lol its fine. He has been in the new tank since Wednesday

 

[EllenD]

Okay, so it could very well be some stress from the new tank, relocation stress can happen to a dragon that has been in with the same person for years and who is then moved into a new enclosure. If it is due to some relocation stress from the new tank, which is quite different from the Bioactive one, then usually this will clear up in a week or so. I'd wait until at least a week has gone by before taking him to a vet, as your general husbandry/UVB is good, and the stress of a vet could make her much worse. Well, that and the fact that a vet isn't going to necessarily know what to do either, they would most likely do a fecal test, and if they see any parasites at all, even in low counts/loads, they'll suggest that this is the problem and want to put them on harsh anti-parasitic or anti-protozoan meds that she doesn't need and usually make them pretty sick on their own. Unless you have a really good, experienced Reptile Specialist or Certified Reptile Vet, then that's a whole other story. But either way I'd give her a week in the new set-up and if she's still not eating and such then maybe she does have a bit of an infection or parasite from the Bioactive substrate.

Just be careful with the vet, because they tend to not want to do cultures to determine if they even really have an infection, or what kind of infection it is (bacterial, fungal, etc.), or where it is, and they usually just end up prescribing them Baytril for everything without running a culture, lol. That's their go-to. I think it's just a little soon in the new set-up. It is quite different than what she was in...

 

[Sassy123]

Ok thanks. It's so stressful seeing them struggle and not being able to do anything about it! If I take him to the vet, I will DEFINITELY insist on doing cultures. I've read so many threads where vets don't do them and end up prescribing something that doesn't even help! There aren't any actual reptile vets where I live, unless I take an hour drive, but I would only do that if it was an emergency