New to this... please help

[Jemrey81]

Hi all. Crazy story, and it's long, but I want to give you the background. I found a bearded dragon on my driveway around New Years. I went to work as usual and while pulling away from the driveway I looked back and saw something that looked like a large lizard right where my car was parked... I thought to myself "that's a weird looking pile of leaves". I drove to work and didn't give it a second thought. When I got home in the afternoon, it was still in the same spot! I parked in a different spot and saw that it was a lizard.... an 18" bearded dragon. I went over to it and it wouldn't move, he was very wide (maybe trying to absorb any heat available from the concrete or something?). I should mention that it was down in the low 30 degree temps the night before and only around 50 degrees when I got back home and saw him. I ended up putting him in a small 10 gallon aquarium that I had in my shed and brought him inside to check him out. I grabbed my wife's hair blow dryer and started blowing warm air into the tank for a while and he started to move around a bit... I was quite pleased. A little later a friend that has a beardie brought some food (crickets and some dehydrated fruit/veggie mix), some sand and a heat pad for me to use temporarily. I set up his little space and put some food and water in there for him... I know the 10 gallon thing is way too small, but it's all I had. So as the days go on he starts getting more and more active, he is eating and pooping so I figure all is well and he is on his way to recovery. I have been looking out for "lost pet" signs and checking with neighbors, but nothing is coming up. My kids really like him so I decided to go to the pet store and get him a new home... a 40 gallon tank, large heat pad, UVB light, basking light, food dishes, hiding spot (half log) and another tree branch thing to climb - as well as some meal worms, crickets and vitamin powder...... OK, wasn't expecting that bill right after the holidays and it hurt :lol:


So, that's the background leading up to the last few days where he has been in his new space and has the proper lights / heat / food.... and now I am learning that the sand that was given to me is kind of a no-no :? Well, I feel like maybe he (assuming it's a "he" by his head structure) has some type of mental issue or something. He walks around really slow and his body is really low to the ground (chin almost drags most of the time), he will walk into the middle of the tank and spin in circles, again really low in the sand, when he goes for his food he is really slow and misses quite often (he will be looking at a worm or cricket and his head starts moving around really weird and then he starts to move in to get it (if it's a cricket, it's long gone by now) and then he goes for it. I have seen him at his bowl full of worms do this and not only miss the worms, but miss the bowl altogether! The other weird thing he does occasionally is if he is climbing over his log or along side of it he will sometimes either fall or stop to where he is laying on his side in the sand and his feet at out towards the log or whatever he was near at the time.... and he will stay there on his side for a couple of minutes and then have a hard time getting back to his feet.

I have been looking around at videos of bearded dragons since I have never owned a reptile before and I just didn't know if any of this was considered normal.... from what I have seen, he is a little weird.

I really appreciate any advise or input you may have and you're awesome if you actually read through all of that :lol:

 

[Onlymediocre]

Hi, how sweet oh u to hlp the little guy!

It kinda sounds like he could have MBD. ?? IDK tho. U may want to do a search on MBD (Metabolic Bone Disease) and see if the symptoms match what hes doing. Any way u could post a pic on here? Lots of times u can tell by the way their jaw is, does it line up right or does he have an underbite? And the way they stand, like if he were standing and has his hands facing backwards.

Then again IDK if the VERY COLD woulda hurt him in some way to cause his behavior... But if u can post a pic for us.

If u think it is MBD get some liquid calium to start giving him, and make sure u have the ReptiSUN 10.0 TUBE, or the arcadia 12% tube for UVB, sometimes its reversible, and at least it wouldnt get any worse. And make sure u mount the UVB inside the tank where he can get within 6-8 inches of it.

Mealworms arent rlly a good feeder, very little meat/nutritional value. Since hes alrdy 18" long, u may want to try Superworms, since u can cram them in a bowl and they cant get out, maybe hell be able to eat them. U can also breed ur own superworms to cut cost. And leave greens (turnip greens, collard greens, mustard greens, etc) available for him to munch on throughout the day.

Also go ahead and take the heating pad back to the store if u can, beardies cant feel heat from underneath them, so theyve been known to burn beardies. It gets too hot and they dont feel it to know to move.

Anywho, post us a pic if u can, and hopefully someone will come along that has a idea of whats going on...

 

[Soulwind]

Do post some photos if you can.

However, if you're going to keep him, get him to a reptile vet if possible for a going over.

[If you're not going to keep him, then please either have him put down humanely or find a reptile rescue to take him.
Please don't just release him (as it sounds like may have already happened with him) or let him suffer]

That behavior sounds less like MBD to me and more like "Stargazing".

"Stargazing" is the name of the disorder in snakes, it may have some other name in beardies,
but basically it's a neuological disorder that messes with thier equilribrium and they have
trouble moving around and determining up from down.

I don't know what the exact symptoms are in beardies (or even that beardies have the same
or a similar disorder for certain), but that's what it sounds like to me.

 

[Jemrey81]

Thank you for the info and input thus far. I will let you know that I wouldn't even think about releasing him into the wild or let him suffer in any way... I am not that type of person, I am doing what I can to give him a good healthy home.

Now, on to the other things... I will try and get some up close shots for you to check him out. And I will look around and find a local reptile vet to check him out.

His jaw doesn't seem to have an underbite, but it doesn't line up perfect on the right side - it sticks out a little - the left side and front are aligned.

I haven't seen him stand with his hands backward, and I haven't seen him drag his legs... just walks really low. I spent some time yesterday watching videos of beardies with MDB and I didn't really see much that was similar to his symptoms, but I am definitely not ruling it out.

I will have to check to see which tube lamp I was told to buy... I just went off of what the guy told me would be good - sadly I read just the opposite so far, so I am curious about the lighting now Thanks for letting me know about mounting the light inside, I was told that it was fine to set it on top of the screen :x

Very sad to hear about the heating pad - it's the one that sticks to the bottom of the tank, so there isn't any way for me to return it now that it's stuck to the glass.

I'll look into getting some larger worms next time and I will put more greens in there for him.

The "stargazing" description you gave sounds pretty close to what I am looking at... it does seem to be a neurological / equilibrium issue. I will do some research on that and see what I can find with the bearded dragons.



On an unrelated side note, when I found him he was really dark in color looked really red (was told by people that he is a "red"), but his color seems to be getting softer. When I was looking around online yesterday I saw some photos of beardies that were "stained" from colored sand and I have a feeling that he is stained.... he has some weird discoloration / spotting in places and part of his belly is red/orange and other parts are almost white.

 

[Soulwind]

This is just my out-there opinion, but it does kind of sound like he may have an issue or two and was
being kept by someone who either didn't or couldn't give him proper husbandry and then compounded
his/her ***hole'ness by just releasing the poor thing into a wild he's not even remotely equipped for.

I hope things work out and you're able to give him a life he deserves.

Now as to lighting/heating/etc. It sounds like you've been reading up and that's a great thing.
We'll certainly provide whatever information and support that we can.

You want to use a long-tube florescent UVA/UVB bulb. You want to get a Repti-Sun 10 or Arcadia 12 bulb.
Don't use the Repti-Glo bulb (it's for forest/tropical creatures not desert creatures), and don't use any kind
of "compact" UV bulb (ie twisted or bent bulbs) as they can harm his eyes.

You can get a florescent fixture to hold the tube from wal-mart for about $11 (so you don't have to pay the silly $40-60
that the pet stores often sell them for). It's made by lights of america and it's over in either the bathroom stuff or
with the light bulbs depending on the store you're at.

You'll also need a basking spot area with a hotspot temp of 95-100 F or so (at 18" he's probably at or approaching adulthood,
and so can be a bit cooler than little ones who need 100-105 F). The easiest/cheapest way is to use
a Halogen Spotlight bulb (65 to 75 watts is usually sufficient). You may also want/need a supplemental light over the "cool"
side of his tank (you want cool side temps to be about 75-85 F during the day). Typically a 40 watt or so regular incandescent
bulb will accomplish this.

As to placement of the UV. It's recommended that you mount the UV bulb/fixture inside the tank as those screen mesh lids
do block up to 50% of the UV output (depending on how 'tight' the mesh is...the one on my tank is made of 1/4" squares and
doesn't block much of anything...it's just there to keep the cat out of his enclosure). The simplest way is to use those
3M command hooks to hold the fixture.

You're best goal is to have him about 6-10 inches away from the UV bulb while being bathed in it's light while he is on his basking spot
sucking up the light and heat.

Another alternative would be a mercury vapor bulb. Those provide light, heat, and UVA/UVB all at the same time from the one bulb.
However, they are kind of expensive, very hot, put out a lot of UV (there's a minimum safe distance as well as a maximum effective distance
you have to maintain), and can be kind of fragile when hot.

And yeah, unfortunately those under-tank heating pads are more for snakes than for basking species like a dragon. They also
can get VERY hot if used unregulated by a thermostat or dimmer and beardies don't really sense heat on thier bellies very well.
However, with a thermostat or dimmer regulating it, a UTH can help with supplemental temps if you need it (but you probably won't).

Let's see, what else...substrate. With an adult, sand is mildly acceptable, but using tile/shelf liner/linoleum/repticarpet/paper towels
is still more preferred. Especially if he turns out to have a condition, it would probably be easier on him/safer.

Roughly, 12 hours of light/dark cycle. Dust his food with Calcium supplement 3-4 times a week (once per day max) and with a vitamin
supplement 1-2 times a week (once per day max).

Anyway, that's enough rambling for now. I hope everything goes well with him. And don't hesitate to ask questions, folks here are pretty friendly.

 

[Jemrey81]

Couple of pics, you can see "his" weird coloring and "his" crooked jaw... the left side of "his" body is really gray. I couldn't get any clear shots of his low walk.

Crooked jaw:

 

[Onlymediocre]

Well hes a cutey!

I didnt say that is was MBD, but thats what it sounded like to me. I havent had a dragon with it, so I only know what Ive heard/seen on here... Still with the jaw like that I wonder, and Ive read a calcium deficiency can cause tremor like movement. But IDK,

Ive heard of stargazing. But it refered to a dragon looking strait up, and is when the have a URI. Tho I think i heard of someone on here that had a beardie with neurological problems, IDK how long ago it was or anything... But if I can find it again Ill link it in here if it sounds similar.

Im gonna pm Tracie, one of the mods, and ask her to read thru this and see if she can help. She knows ALOT about beardies, so hopefully she can hlp out here.

 

[BrendaKay]

Wow! Crazy story that he was found outside! So lucky you found him and are giving him a much better life!

Can't wait to keep reading updates on how he's doing. His legs looked a little skinny so my first thought was maybe he was walking low because his legs couldn't support him? Probably not.

(And Stargazing also happens in birds.)

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Happy New Years, you now have a new best friend...did you name him yet?
He has several issues going on right now. His jaw has a slight underbite but it is present. This does not happen overnight but is a gradual thing. So you can know for sure that the previous owners did not provide the proper or any UVB lighting along with calcium or supplementation. The inability to fully support himself is most likely caused by hypocalcemia & other nutritional problems. He is very thin. Thiamin deficiency can also cause tremors, twitching & weakness.
He could be injured possibly, or may have the beginnings of a respiratory issue/infection too being in the elements & being nutrition poor also. That could be the star gazing type of behavior. It looked like some crustiness had developed in his mouth, is that correct? Stargazing can be caused by a bacterial infection, too.
Does his head have tremors & he is unable to control that?
He is tri colored. It does look as if he has some staining due to sand, probably. It also looks like he has some whiter areas that are because of shedding most likely.
I would use paper towels, tiles or reptile carpet for substrate. The undertank heater can be used as long as you have something in between it & the dragon so it doesn't burn him. Don't use it in combination with overhead heating. If you need nighttime heating, you can leave the undertank heater on to help keep the tank around 80 overnight with no lighting.
Has he gone to the bathroom much? How do his urates look? Is he eating very well right now?
I would give calcium 4-5 times per week right now, but look into getting liquid calcium for awhile.

The lighting/UVB advice given is correct & thorough. Let us know if you have more questions.

Tracie