New owner and very stressed!

[bjweb]

Hi there. I just purchased our little guy last Monday for my sons 6th birthday. (of course, I am the one doing all the caring for...but my son really loves his new pet!) But, I will admit I was not prepared for how much work a bearded dragon is. I didn't do any research before I bought him. I just went to the pet store and came home with our little guy and a bearded dragon cage kit. So....now you know how much I need to learn! But I have been doing research since the night we brought him home and I feel like I have learned some, but I am still really worried about his health. Our family has fallen in love with this little guy really fast!

So here are my concerns. I don't think the pet store was taking good care of their BD's. They said they "think" he is 5 or 6 months old but he is only 8 inches long from head to tail. Isn't that really small? The only thing the pet store was feeding him was lettuce and carrots and about 5 crickets a day!! Isn't that horrible? They told me crickets were just treats for them and not a main diet. So I was shocked when I came home and started to realize how many crickets I would have to feed him each day.

I now feed him collard and mustard greens each day along with other veggies from the online nutrition guide and I feed him crickets twice a day. He usually eats 20-30 crickets each feeding.

I am also concerned about his substrate. I had him on Alfalfa Meal which came with the bearded dragon cage kit, but I learned that was not healthy for him, so I just switched him to terrarium liner tonight. I am concerned because he has been acting funny since I put it in there. He doesn't seem to like it. Also, it seems like this liner will be hard to clean. The alfalfa meal was easy because I just scooped out the poop. Does anyone know if terrarium liner is easy to clean? How do you do it?

I am using the lighting the cage came with. They are R-Zilla dome lights. It came with a 150 watt day blue light incandescent bulb, a UVB coil bulb, and a night black heat incandescent bulb. The cage is 20L. I also thought this would be big enough for my BD throughout his life because that is what the pet store told me! I now know I need to buy at least a 55 Gal tank when he gets a bit bigger. I have been worried because he rarely sits in his basking area. He spends most of the day on the grapevine that sits in the middle of the cage which is also directly under the UVB light.

I have been worried about dehydration so I have been trying to give a a bath every other day. When you mist BD's do you spray their entire body?

Also, our little guy does not like to be held. I try to hold him every day but he is really wild and trys to get away. Oh, and tonight he fell asleep on the grapevine and every other night he has gone to sleep on the ground. Is that weird? Won't he fall off?

So sorry this is long. I am just so worried! Oh, and we are still working on a name for our "little guy!"

 

[Embee]

Hi there,

First, I would just like to say I'm SO sorry that the pet store led you astray. It is an all too common scenario I'm afraid, and one we ourselves fell into. Your story was eerily similar to our own, right down to the bearded dragon being for your son... our family began this adventure last fall when our son was 7 and wanted a beardie ever so badly. It wasn't a day, before we were all in love with her. I'm going to go about addressing your concerns one and by one:

Hi there. I just purchased our little guy last Monday for my sons 6th birthday. (of course, I am the one doing all the caring for...but my son really loves his new pet!) But, I will admit I was not prepared for how much work a bearded dragon is. I didn't do any research before I bought him. I just went to the pet store and came home with our little guy and a bearded dragon cage kit. So....now you know how much I need to learn! But I have been doing research since the night we brought him home and I feel like I have learned some, but I am still really worried about his health. Our family has fallen in love with this little guy really fast!

When we first made this same realization, it was VERY overwhelming, but it's been several months now, and the routine is pretty much ingrained, so hang in there.

So here are my concerns. I don't think the pet store was taking good care of their BD's. They said they "think" he is 5 or 6 months old but he is only 8 inches long from head to tail. Isn't that really small? The only thing the pet store was feeding him was lettuce and carrots and about 5 crickets a day!! Isn't that horrible? They told me crickets were just treats for them and not a main diet. So I was shocked when I came home and started to realize how many crickets I would have to feed him each day.

I now feed him collard and mustard greens each day along with other veggies from the online nutrition guide and I feed him crickets twice a day. He usually eats 20-30 crickets each feeding.

It wouldn't be the first time that a pet store employee hazards a guess as to beardie's age and was way off. That said, if a beardie is not properly cared for (as to diet, temps, and UVB), this can certainly slow/stunt their growth, so it's difficult to determine exact age. In general, we would say that a beardie of 8 inches is about 9-10 weeks old. Here is a reputable growth chart for your reference: http://www.dachiu.com/beardeddragoncare/growthcharts.html.

The pet store was certainly not feeding the beardie near enough, and the food they were giving him (as you've now learned), was not ideal. The nutrition chart you refer to, I assume you are talking about "Beautiful Dragons?" Just in case, here it is again: http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html.

He seems to be eating well for now, which is a relief to me actually, given the UVB light they sent you home with (more on that later). Are you supplementing with calcium and multi-vites? You will want to dust 5 meals per week with calcium, and 1- 2 meals per week with multi-vites.

I am also concerned about his substrate. I had him on Alfalfa Meal which came with the bearded dragon cage kit, but I learned that was not healthy for him, so I just switched him to terrarium liner tonight. I am concerned because he has been acting funny since I put it in there. He doesn't seem to like it. Also, it seems like this liner will be hard to clean. The alfalfa meal was easy because I just scooped out the poop. Does anyone know if terrarium liner is easy to clean? How do you do it?

When you say terrarium liner, what is the actual substance? Is it Repti-Carpet, or a type of smooth material? If it's the latter, I wonder if your dragon is simply not feeling well grounded, as when they are small and light, they need a certain amount of 'texture' to help them grip. If you're concerned about his comfort and about cleaning it, you might just as well take it out and plop in some good old paper towel which is easy for them to get around on, and super easy cleaning... just toss and replace. As to picking up poop, I just use some tissue to scoop it up and remove, and then wipe the surface with a rag and vinegar water afterward.

I am using the lighting the cage came with. They are R-Zilla dome lights. It came with a 150 watt day blue light incandescent bulb, a UVB coil bulb, and a night black heat incandescent bulb. The cage is 20L. I also thought this would be big enough for my BD throughout his life because that is what the pet store told me! I now know I need to buy at least a 55 Gal tank when he gets a bit bigger. I have been worried because he rarely sits in his basking area. He spends most of the day on the grapevine that sits in the middle of the cage which is also directly under the UVB light.

This is the part where things tend to get sticky. The fact is, the pet supply industry is not well regulated. There are just way too many lights out there available that are not good quality, and can even do harm to beardies (we learned this the hard way).

For the basking bulb, you will want a BRIGHT WHITE incandescent bulb, which can be a pet store basking type, or just a plain old household bulb or flood, provided it gives you proper temps which for a juvenile are: basking, 105-110, mid 85-90 and cool side, about 80. I find the household floods tend to give off more heat per watt and also spread the light a bit better. A bright white bulb offers your dragon UVA, and also will guard his eyes from the UVB rays, which even with a quality bulb, can be harsh. For a 20 gallon, I believe a 60w bulb would do nicely. Room temps of course will either drive up or down your temps, so gauging temps closely is important. With that...

May I ask, with what and how are you going about gauging temps? This is another place that pet stores tend to lead us astray. Mainly, it's important to know the three types of temperatures in the tank (see above paragraph), and the only way to gauge them accurately (in particular, the basking temps), is with a digital WITH probe type thermometer (or temp gun, but those tend to be more pricey). This way, a probe end can be placed directly under the heat bulb/on the basking surface (leave for 45 minutes before reading temp), in order to discern what is going on for beardie directly under the light. Too high of temps can cause rapid dehydration, too low and beardie will likely have digestion issues. Pet stores tend to send people home with dial stick on types which not only are useless in taking basking temps, they also have a tendency to be up to 20 degrees off, either way. When we compared ours to the probe, it was a good 15 degrees off. *sigh* A tip: WalMart carries an inexpensive, quality digital with probe thermometer for around $12. It's made by Acu-Rite. It's usually in the hardware area, with the extension cords, outlet attachments, plug timers, household (indoor and outdoor) thermometers.

The UVB you are using is the biggest concern. The coil bulbs have been linked to everything from poor appetite, lethargy, eye issues, slow/stunted growth and at worst, radiation poisoning. Here is a thread/WITH LINK that will explain more: [ Invalid URL Removed / p= t=65424 f=1 ]. It will need a strip fluorescent fixture which can be found at an online pet store, regular pet store OR, less expensively at your local hardware store. Your beardie will be fine without UVB temporarily, if you need to wait for the ReptiSun in the mail. The rule is, better NO UVB (temp), than poor UVB. There are two other tubes I can recommend that are safe, but both are just "ok" in terms of UVB emissions, and as they tend to cost about the same on-line, it's worth it to get the ReptiSun 10.0 tube.

As to the enclosure, yes... he will need a larger tank eventually. A 40 gallon is actually the minimum size. The 55 are nice also, longer but not as deep as the 40 gallon, so they are somewhat of a toss up. When it was coming time to grow into a new tank, we checked Craigslist every day for about 2 weeks I believe, looking for a 40 breeder and we got one for about $40. I'd suggest going that route as you have some time to work with there.

As to him avoiding the basking area. I wonder if it's the 150w light. That seems awfully much for a 20 gallon. Could be too hot. Another reason could be the coil bulb, as they offer rather harsh light. One very typical thing that beardie's do when exposed to these bulbs, is attempt to hide from them. I should say with that then, that when you are able to get a ReptiSun 10.0 tube, and bright white basking bulb, you will want to align the basking bulb and the UVB tube as follows:

______________UVB tube
0 basking bulb

...so that beardie has benefit of both bulbs while basking for optimum calcium processing, and thorough digestion. Also, as I mentioned before the bright white light from the basking bulb will guard beardies eyes from the UVB.

I have been worried about dehydration so I have been trying to give a a bath every other day. When you mist BD's do you spray their entire body?

Bathing every other day should keep your beardie sufficiently hydrated. Misting is a nice supplement, but dragons take most of their water in at the vent (where they poop ). Misting the whole body is fine, in fact it will be more of hydration aid if beardie drinks any drops that fall around his mouth. How is the humidity in the tank? Should be running 30-50%.

Also, our little guy does not like to be held. I try to hold him every day but he is really wild and trys to get away. Oh, and tonight he fell asleep on the grapevine and every other night he has gone to sleep on the ground. Is that weird? Won't he fall off?

Sounds like he's a wiggly one. It may take some time for him to calm, as he probably not used to being handled. I would handle regularly, but not too often to start. One thing you can do is simply place a hand in the enclosure and allow him to explore you a bit, get used to your presence. As to the sleeping, it's pretty typical. Imaginative sleeping positions are something beardie's are rather known for. When our girl was a tyke, she preferred her vine as well. She still tries to lay on it now, but it tumbles underneath her. LOL Fatty that she is. One thing you will notice is that once beardie is asleep, he rarely moves a muscle. We never had a problem with her sleeping on the vine. Anymore, she insists on a cuddle and a blanky, so she was much less maintenance back then. LOL

So sorry this is long. I am just so worried! Oh, and we are still working on a name for our "little guy!"

I hear you. You have excellent beardie instincts already. Took me a bit longer to clue in, and to allow all the new/correct information sink in, and our beardie was struggling under a compact light for longer than I'd like to admit. *sigh* She has thankfully made a full recovery, and is thriving well now.

I hope this helps.

Hang in there!

The best,
Em

 

[bjweb]

I am so glad I posted here! Thank you so much for your help! I turned off the UVB coil bulb and will order the Repitsun 10.0. Is the 18 in. long enough for my 20L tank or should I get the 24 in.? I have only been using the stick on thermometer the tank came with. I am going to go by the one you recommended at Walmart today. I also replaced the blue day light bulb with a 65 watt flood light but am not sure if its hot enough. Hopefully I can get to Walmart soon. Now I am really worried about our little guy (who my six year old is insisting on calling Spikey and my 4 year old wants to call him Gunnar......so Spikey Gunnar is official *sigh*. So much for my "neat" name!

But I really appreciate you taking the time to help me. I also just read that black stripes on his belly are a sign of stress. I didn't know that and he has them all over his belly and his beard is looking black. Will he be ok??

I am using the Zilla brand spray calcium and spray vitamins. Do you know much about that? Is the spray ok to use or should I buy the powder form?

I am using Repti-Carpet as my substrate now. I am still testing it out to see if cleaning will be hard.

Thanks again!

Brittney

 

[jortiz9758]

You have absolutely come to the right place to have any and all questions answered!...Big props to Embee for taking the time out to answer all questions in such detail...

 

[Embee]

Hello, Brittany!

Ah, it's always a relief when someone replies back after I douse them with information that isn't especially pleasant. *whew*

I am so glad I posted here! Thank you so much for your help! I turned off the UVB coil bulb and will order the Repitsun 10.0. Is the 18 in. long enough for my 20L tank or should I get the 24 in.? I have only been using the stick on thermometer the tank came with. I am going to go by the one you recommended at Walmart today. I also replaced the blue day light bulb with a 65 watt flood light but am not sure if its hot enough. Hopefully I can get to Walmart soon. Now I am really worried about our little guy (who my six year old is insisting on calling Spikey and my 4 year old wants to call him Gunnar......so Spikey Gunnar is official *sigh*. So much for my "neat" name!

Ah, Spikey Gunnar, *SJ* for short? :mrgreen: Try not to worry. If it helps, you're addressing all of these things at time when your dragon is doing well, and eating well. Young dragons while quite particular in their needs, are also immensely resilient, particularly when we catch things "in time." Like I mentioned in my posts, we actually let things go on a bit before coming out of our denial that the pet store would have lead us astray, but even then, our dragon is doing WONDERFULLY now; growing, eating like a pig, and while she is small for her age (9 months/13-14 inches), she is healthy which counts for a lot.

The 18" ReptiSun is good for the 20 gallon, as the UVB should cover at least half the enclosure. I'll be curious as to how your temps look under the new heat bulb, and there again, if you aren't getting good result (105-110), you can swap up for a 70-75, and see how that does.

But I really appreciate you taking the time to help me. I also just read that black stripes on his belly are a sign of stress. I didn't know that and he has them all over his belly and his beard is looking black. Will he be ok??

Try not to worry too much about the stress marks. When dragons are young, they tend to have stress marks more often as their fat stores are not as hearty, and they don't hold in heat nearly as well. Stress marks can be a result of being stressed yes, but it is often related to temperature. Our girl was stripey quite a bit when she was about 8-9 inches and smaller. Since she's grown and in particular, fattened up, she holds heat MUCH better and longer and isn't nearly as prone to stress marks (unless she's unhappy with me for some reason). :roll: Also, I found that while her temp was trying to rise back up in the am, it would take awhile for her temps to become stable, which is normal.

Oh, I did want to ask you about nighttime temps, and offer to you that the black lights are not exactly "recommended" as beardie really have no use to any colored type lights (they can see the light and it can disturb their sleep. That said, if you room temps do not go below 65 degrees at night, then no supplemental nighttime heat is needed. It's good for them to cool down at night, so long as it's not too cool of course... and if need be, say in the winter months if the house does dip below 65, a ceramic heat emitter (CHE) is best as it offers heat, but NO light.

I am using the Zilla brand spray calcium and spray vitamins. Do you know much about that? Is the spray ok to use or should I buy the powder form?

I know that not many recommend the spray vites/calcium, and at best it would be just a supplement to the supplement. Oral calcium and vites are essential for proper absorbtion as beardies do not absorb anything very well through their skin. This is why baths are important in providing hydration as dragons need to absorb water through a mucus membrane such as the vent or mouth). Here are some links, if you'd like to add to your ReptiSun order. Pet Mountain has excellent prices on both:

http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-supplements/105551/rep-cal-ultrafine-calcium-with-vitamin-d3.html

http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-supplements/105550/rep-cal-herptivite.html

I am using Repti-Carpet as my substrate now. I am still testing it out to see if cleaning will be hard.

We use ReptiCarpet as well. I pick up the poop with some tissue and then use a wetted cloth/rag with a bit of vinegar and do the best I can to wipe up what's left. The urates tend to stain, though. :roll: When I want to change out the carpet (once a week, usually), I just treat the stains with spray on vinegar water (my favorite homemade cleaning solution :wink: ), and throw the carpet into the washing machine on a hot/cold cycle. Hang dry. We've been in the habit of having two pieces of repti-carpet so we can just rotate as needed.

Thanks again!

You are most welcome. Indeed, I believe you are well on your way to becoming a devoted beardie slave.

The best,
Em

 

[Embee]

Brittany,

I almost forgot! I wanted to mention that ordering crickets (and other feeders) in bulk/online can be a real help to the pocket book. We were told our beardie would need about 4 crickets a day. :roll: Aye, yaye, yaye! More like 50-100 a day! :shock: We've saved a bundle ordering on line, about 500 at time for crickets (we also feed phoenix worms, which we order 1000 at a time). We keep them in a large rubbermaid container with some egg carton material, and gut load with cricket meal, veggies and fruit. This is a great way to control the size of feeders as well, as pet stores will often just offer "small" and "large." Indeed, as you are doing, offer live feeders 2-3 times a day, as many as beardie will eat in 10-15 minutes, dust 5 meals a week with cal, 1 - 2 with vites and remember, no feeders larger than the space between beardie's eyes. (Apologies for anything in there you already know/are doing).

Em

 

[bjweb]

I am still trying to get to Walmart for my thermometer, so no temps for you yet...but, I wanted to mention that the spray vitamins and calcium are spray for the food, not the bearded dragon. So have you heard anything about those? I have been spraying his crickets each meal, but is sounds like I only need to spray them 5 meals a week with calcium and 2 times a week with the vitamins.....that is....if the spray is ok???

 

[Embee]

I am still trying to get to Walmart for my thermometer, so no temps for you yet...but, I wanted to mention that the spray vitamins and calcium are spray for the food, not the bearded dragon. So have you heard anything about those? I have been spraying his crickets each meal, but is sounds like I only need to spray them 5 meals a week with calcium and 2 times a week with the vitamins.....that is....if the spray is ok???

LOL, clearly I DON'T know much about the spray vitamins given that rather large error in judgement! With that, I can't speak as to their quality. They haven't been mentioned much around here. I would imagine they would be similar to the dust, just in different form. :dontknow:

Indeed, just 5 meals per week calcium, 1 - 2 for vites (I dust vites on the days I don't dust calcium).

In the meantime, I'll see what I can scratch up about liquid/spray vites and let you know what I find out, if anything.

Em

 

[Embee]

You have absolutely come to the right place to have any and all questions answered!...Big props to Embee for taking the time out to answer all questions in such detail...

Ah, shucks. It was nothin'. Very sweet of you to say, Jortiz.

Brittany, I've got a PM into Tracie (Drache613/moderator, one of the resident experts ) about the Zilla Spray calcium and vites. I'll let you know what I find out.

The best,
Em

 

[Drache613]

Hello Brittany,

First, thanks to Em for helping you out as a new owner. I am sorry you had gotten so much bad advice from the petstore. It is a very common occurrence also.
So that is great you have turned off the coil/compact Zilla light. They are not good lights, especially the coil/compact lights. Which basking light are you using now, I usually recommend the bright white halogen flood or spot lights. They are very bright & white & they get hot.
The vitamins are fine to give 2 times per week right now. As for the Zilla liquid calcium spray, if you are consistent with spraying once daily, she might be getting enough. If you feel like she is not getting enough, I can dose the liquid for you & you can give it to her with a little syringe daily. It is your preference but if you decide to give it that way let me know. I will just need your dragon's weight.
You wont want to use the spray with any other calcium source though as that might be calcium overload which will impact her or constipate her if given in excess.
That is completely up to you as to whether you want to stay with the liquid or switch to the powder.

You are doing great & everything looks to be getting under control for your setup now. You still need to get a digital thermometer or a temp gun to measure the temps with. That will help alot.

Let us know what else we can help you with.

Tracie

 

[Embee]

Thanks for jumping in Tracie! :mrgreen:

Brittany,

Whew, now I know a little something new as well... I'm still laughing at myself for thinking that the spray vitamins were for the dragon. Sorry about that!

How are things with "reconfiguring" the enclosure? Indeed, as Tracie mentioned, please let us know if there is anything else we can help out with. Also, if you'd like, I'd be happy to PM you a care sheet for young/juvenile dragons, if you'd like.

The best, and hope all is going well!

Em

 

[bjweb]

I just really appreciate all of your help! Thank you so much.

I have an Acu-Rite thermometer now and here are the temps:

basking 105.6
on top of his grape vine (this is where he spends most of his time) 94.6 The grapevine sits up pretty high. He is pretty close to the screen cover when he sits on it.
cool side 81.0

I am using a household floodlight now, but it is soft white. I looked for a bright white at Walmart today and only saw soft white bulbs there. I will look somewhere else for a bright white bulb tomorrow. With his basking spot getting to 105 with a 65 watt bulb, I can't imagine how hot his basking spot must have been with a 150 watt bulb!! Poor little guy was probably sooo hot!

Yes, I would love a care sheet. Thank you!

So I have another question about coil bulbs. The one we have is a Zilla Desert Series 50 Coil Bulb. My husband was reading the report on the problem bulbs and he says it never mentions the Desert Series 50 Coil bulb, only the Compact bulb. So, do you think the one I have is ok? He doesn't want to spend the money on another bulb if the one we have is safe. (Its a good thing he is logical like that :wink: ) I can't believe how much money we wasted with this Zilla Bearded Dragon cage kit!

I ordered 500 crickets online yesterday. I can't wait until they get here.....making several trips to the pet store over the past 10 days with three young boys in tow is somewhat difficult :wink: They never want to leave the store!

Thanks again.

Brittney

 

[Drache613]

Hello Brittney,

Great you have a digital probe now. Those temperatures sound like they are pretty good for him now, no problem. He was probably too hot with the 150watt, yes.
Good that you have ordered crickets online, that will help out. They are much cheaper as well.
The report doesn't specifically mention the compacts/coil just the linear, but, they were still the Desert 50 Series & they still have the photo therapy phosphor coating on them which did cause the improper UV wavelength to occur.
I am not positive that they have made any changes to this series of lights & the ones that have been out in the past have caused terrible problems. So until the newer ones have been tested I just don't recommend them, due to safety reasons.

Tracie

 

[Embee]

Brittany,

Sounds like things are looking up! As Tracie mentioned, temps are looking good.

I have to second Tracie's thoughts on the Zilla Desert Series 50. We were using the the Zilla Desert 50 Series bulb (the compact, very similar to the coil), when our beardie started going down hill. If you do a search here on the site (ER, Health, Behavior forums) using the word "coil", you'll find [sadly] plenty of evidence as to the hazards of the these unpredictable bulbs. IME, it's just not worth the risk. I do understand not wanting to purchase another if not needed, but being that you can get the quality ReptiSun 10.0 tube online fairly inexpensively, it will be a much safer and optimum situation for your beardie. No guess work/worry: You know it's safe, and she'll likely thrive under it very well as the UVB emissions for this bulb are very good. At the end of the day, even if the Desert Series offered a safe bulb, in it's current state it is additionally, just not a source of UVB. *sigh*

Typically, a beardie will do well under the bulb for a time, but then you might start to see the appetite slow down, beardie sleeping a lot, lethargy, slow/stunted growth, eye issues, etc. Our beardie displayed all of these symptoms, within about a month of having her. Like I've mentioned before, I wish I had known earlier so that I could have spared her all of that. Within hours of installing the ReptiSun tube, she was a totally different dragon; active, eating more each day and the eye healed as well. And she is no longer stuck at 6 inches... 14 inches as of yesterday. :mrgreen: She is about 10 months.

I don't mean to go on too much here, but in my few months on the board, I have participated in more sad "coil cases" than I can count. I can't stress enough the importance of good quality SAFE UVB lighting.

I will be happy to send you a caresheet via PM.

The best,
Em

 

[bjweb]

Thank you once again for your input on UVB lighting. I am going to order the Repti Sun today. You are right. I just shouldn't take the chance with something bad happening to our little critter Better to be safe than sorry! Thank you both for your help!

Brittney