New Dragon Owner: Suggestions and help?

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Aurren

Member
Okay, so for an early 18th birthday present, my best friend of ten years let me take her two beardies, which she believes to be male and female. Their names are Toothless (After "How to Train Your Dragon") and the other, Lady.

The last time I measured them, Toothless was exactly one foot long, my friend told me he was a bit over a year old. What would be a good guesstimate? She also says that he's a mix between a Citrus-something and something about red, which gives him the red streaks around his eyes. Right now, his beard is starting to turn black, extreme pacing, trying to jump out of his cage, which he's never done before. My friend told me that meant he was ready to mate, but so far, some of the things she's told me hasn't been too accurate, according to the Internet. Also, while he's sleeping, he's a pale yellow, when he's basking or just running around, he's a grayish-brown, and when he's under a natural sun, and starts gaping, he turns a little more yellow, especially around his head. Is that normal?

Lady on the other hand, is exactly half Toothless's size, a terrifyingly huge six inches!! (lol) Another guesstimate for her age, please? Her and Toothless are polar opposites, while Toothless is friendly and active, Lady is skittish, although non-hostile, and does move around as much as Toothless. My friend told me that she is an Italian Leatherback. The other day, she terrified me by running away amazingly quickly when I let her and Toothless outside to sunbathe. Until I tried to take her back inside, she was adorable attached, cuddling up close to me, most likely to avoid being seen by the birds flying overhead. When I caught up to her, she was flaring at me, which she hadn't done before. (Forget ever going outside ever again, Lady!)

For the few weeks I've had them, I've been feeding them fresh kale and chopped carrots every day, and a few crickets (~12 each), or until they're full, gut-loaded and calcium-dusted every three days. I let them out frequently, at least once a day each. When they're not out of their terrarium, they're basking under the lamp, on their favorite rock/den. Often times, Lady will lay on Toothless's back, and waves sometimes after Toothless does his head bobbing. Is there any significance to the piggybacking? Toothless never does this in return.

:D Thanks!!
 

catUK

Gray-bearded Member
hello and welcome :wave:

The laying on top of each other is showing their dominance. It is too risky to house beardies together- they could fight or worse and there's the risk of over mating (especially dangerous if one is much younger which it seems lady is). I would seperate them asap. My beardie has just turned 1 and she is 17.5 inches. If toothless is 1 then he is very small for his age.
Often times, Lady will lay on Toothless's back, and waves sometimes after Toothless does his head bobbing.
these are signs of dominance which can result in one or both beardies being stressed which can be detremental to their health as well as fighting. there have been many sad stories about beardies seriously hurting or killing each other on here. Don't want to sound critical but its too much of a risk to house them together, especially with one being half the size

Right now, his beard is starting to turn black, extreme pacing, trying to jump out of his cage, which he's never done before. My friend told me that meant he was ready to mate, but so far, some of the things she's told me hasn't been too accurate, according to the Internet. Also, while he's sleeping, he's a pale yellow, when he's basking or just running around, he's a grayish-brown, and when he's under a natural sun, and starts gaping, he turns a little more yellow, especially around his head. Is that normal?

This could be a sign he wants to mate- spring fever can see behaviour like this. As for the colour change, this is completely normal.

For the few weeks I've had them, I've been feeding them fresh kale and chopped carrots every day, and a few (~12) each, or until they're full, gut-loaded and calcium-dusted every three days.

kale and carrots should only be fed occasionally. this site gives good info on veg to feed and what not to feed http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html. Im guessing at the size of your beardies that lady is a baby and toothless is a juvie. they should be fed live food 2-3 times per day, as much as they can eat in a 10-15 minute period. The live food should be dusted 5 times a week, 1 feed per day with calcium and 2 times per week, one feed per day with multivitamins. babies can eat from 30-100 crickets or more per day. I feed my 1 year old every day- every 3 days is not enough for young beardies.
 

BeardieGrandma

Juvie Member
Hi! Welcome to the board. That is quite a birthday present your friend gave you!

You will find lots of good advice on the board, and there are many folks more experienced than me. I've been on here several months, so I'll share what I've learned so far...

Dragons all grow at different rates, their size and rate of growth is largely dependent upon their diets (proper nutrition and husbandry) particularly the first year of life. An average full grown adult dragon is around 18-21" long. Toothless sounds small for his age, and Lady sounds about average. They turn all sorts of variation of their color, depending on their temperatures, moods (white belly & bright colors means happy), dark colors can be absorbing heat or stressed out...etc.

If Lady is 6 mos old, she should be eating as many crickets as she wants in a 10-15 minute period 2X a day - at that age mine ate 35-40 crickets 2X a day. Toothless, on the other hand, may eat less often (maybe once a day or every other day), but Lady needs lots of protein right now to help her grow. As for greens, give them fresh greens every day, and switch up to collard, mustard, or turnip. Kale has some calcium binding capability (prohibits absorption of calcium). You can also give them squash everyday, and strawberries and blueberries as an occasional treat...check out this site for some nutritional guidance on what to feed and what not to feed in the veggie category: http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutritionframeset.html

I would highly recommend getting a leash for both of them if you want to take them outside for some natural sunlight (which is very good for them!). Search oglepets on the board and you'll find Christine - she makes very affordable beardie leashes with specific sizes to fit your needs. There's lots of stories on the board of the beardies breaking out and getting lost in the backyard, owners worrying for weeks on end, and then the beardies show up...but with cats, birds, and other predators that could potentially pass through your backyard, keeping them on a leash is a lot safer. I agree, I've never seen my lizard move as fast as she does when she's scuttling across the back patio heading for the bushes.
Finally, they should not be housed together. There's a lot of debate on the board about it, some swear its ok, but there are many stories of toes getting bitten off, biting, fighting, and worse as well.

When they are piggybacking, it is a sign of dominance. One will dominate the other for food, heat, and light, which can significantly affect the health of the dominated one. That might explain the normal rate of growth for Lady, and the slow rate of growth for Toothless. Also, Toothless will want to get 'busy' with Lady very soon, and you want to avoid breeding her before 18 mos, as it is really not good for females to breed younger than that.

good luck! and keep your questions coming!
 

Jess

Extreme Poster
You really need to separate them ASAP. If Lady is only 6 inches, Toothless could easily kill her or even eat her (It's happened plenty of times to the smaller of a pair of dragons...). How old did your friend say she was? If she is indeed mature at only 6 inches, getting pregnant will kill her too.

Beardie's growth depends on how they are cared for and genetics, so it can be hard to tell their age. Based on their sizes, I would have guessed that Toothless was about 5 months, and Lady wouldn't be older than 6-8 weeks. But it sounds like being housed together and possibly improper care has stunted their growth a lot.

Can you go over their set up, please? Like, what type and brand of UVB light do you have, what are the temperatures, what kind of thermometer do you use (Dial, stick-on, digital...?), what substrate do you use, and what size cage they are in, ect.

Like the previous poster mentioned, they need to be fed a lot more. My pudgy 3 yr. old is on a diet, and he even gets more live food than your guys are getting now. Since they are both so tiny, you should pretty much be giving them as many feeder insects as they want, so they can catch up on their growth.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi Jess....well, how exciting to have been given 2 new cuties ! Good thing you asked questions right away because there would def. be problems with that housing arrangement. The first thing is.....LISTEN to what people say about separation. Toothless can very easily kill Lady. True, they may seem buddies at the moment, and some websites feature pics of a baby hanging on to an adults back [ very irresponsible really, those pics should have a disclaimer as to the danger] These large dragons will eat a baby in an instant. As for age + size, a one year old should be at least 15, and usually more, inches. They can be near adult size [ up to 21-22"] at 1 year, but genetics and first year feeding and care factor in, so there is variation. A 6" dragon is generally 6- 10 weeks of age....any older and they are probably stunted. I hope all goes well....keep coming back for info that you need.
 

Aurren

Member
Original Poster
Oh wow... I can't help but feel a little disappointed in my friend. Since I don't have a job yet, I have to rely on my dad for supplies. When I measured the terranium, I got 38x11x11. I have a 10.0 UVB Reptiglo spiral light bulb, I spray them every 1-2 day(s) with room temperature water, they have less than half an inch coating of Reptisand "Bearded Dragon Specialized" sand.... (I heard that sand was bad, but before, I had mulch, wouldn't it make more sense for a beardie, whose ancestor came from Australian deserts, have sand for a substrate.... )

"Natural colors! No added dyes or chemicals
Stimulates natural digging and burrowing behavior
Pure, very fine QUARTZ desert sand - better than silica sand!"

Well, saying that I have half-an-inch coating of sand wouldn't be right.
Their basking area has about one inch, but I set it up so that their water a food bowl area has very little sand near it, so none gets in and they don't eat/drink it.

I'll take a picture later of Toothless and Lady, compared together next to a ruler, and then their terrarium.
 

BeardieGrandma

Juvie Member
egads...

Well, another suggestion you'll probably hear in stereo is to ditch the sand altogether. Reptile carpet or slate tile is the way to go. Sand harbors bacteria and can cause impaction, which can make your beardies very sick or worse. For a full-grown beardie a minimum enclosure is 36x18x18, meaning you'll need at least two of those to separate them properly.

The coil tube bulbs are not good for them either - you should get the reptisun 10.0 UVB bulb that spans across the back of the tank. Coil bulbs can mess with their eyesight, and may not help them effectively absorb calcium which they need for appropriate growth and bone health - also can affect their appetite.

You can buy the bulbs at petmountain.com.
 

Aurren

Member
Original Poster
I'm not sure I can get rid of the bulb, my dad's dead-set on keeping it, he says it's good enough, and that getting a new one is too expensive.
The same for the sand, I feel like I'm betraying him, it's the only nice thing he's really done for me.
But, I do have some extra fabric around the house, do you think that a long strip of denim, very well washed, would be fine?

Once I get a job, I really do plan on improving their conditions, and if denim is okay, I'll be moving Lady into a large box that I have tonight with denim substrate.
(Denim, because it doesn't cling to their claws or fray too easily. Also note that it's not just denim from jeans.)

The box is half the size of the terrarium, only a little taller, which is good, because I don't have a screen to protect my grandma from her XD
 

BeardieGrandma

Juvie Member
well I imagine that would be ok, as long as you don't have any frayed loose ends lady can eat...keep an eye on craigslist by the way for other supplies (like housing, or light fixtures) - you'll find the cheapest way to go is there versus the petstore. When I first started researching a set up for our bearded dragon I went to petsmart and priced out everything brand new. After 1/2 hour of talking to the guy that worked there he advised me to check craigslist for my set up. Brand new it would have costed me >$250, but I got the same stuff from craigslist for $60 -
 

DaddyGeek

Juvie Member
I would like to recommend a caresheet for you that you can consult when you need to. The denim could work, just remember that beardies explore by licking and if they find something they like they will try to eat it so as was said no loose ends. The UV lighting really needs to be changed if possible. I know your dad is deadset but just in case in the future you manage to change his mind I will also link for you a site with fixtures and bulbs.



Caresheet:
http://beardeddragoncaresheet.weebly.com/index.html


Reptisun 10.0:
http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-uva-uvb-bulbs/11442-504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10-0-uvb-bulb.html


Fixture:
http://www.petmountain.com/product/light-fixtures/11442-509771/zilla-slimline-tropical-reptile-fixture-18-uv.html
 

Jess

Extreme Poster
I would at least replace that UVB light. Coil lights are horrible for their eyes, and you might end up with some nasty vet bills and metabolic bone disease if you don't change it. It doesn't give out enough UVB either, so it could majorly be contributing to their tinyness.
Order a ReptiSun 10.0 flouescent tube from http://www.petmountain.com. They are $25, and usually Petmountian has some kind of free shipping deal. I always order 2 at a time to save on shipping. Keep in mind they need to be replaced every 6 months!
You can get a fixture for the tube lights at Walmart for $9.

If you don't want to make your dad feel bad over tossing the sand, you can keep some of it and make a little "sandbox" for Toothless to play in (Put some sand in a little tupperware container or something), and then use the denim as the main substrate. I wouldn't give any sand to Lady though, because she is so small.

BTW, welcome to BD.org! I know all this info is probably a little overwhelming, but everything we say is in the best interest of your beardies. :wink:
 

Aurren

Member
Original Poster
: ) Thank you all for your suggestions, I've found them to be really helpful over scrambling around to different sites and getting mixed answers. I plan to change their diet as soon as possible, and their light once I get my first paycheck. And after that, move lady out of the box I'm about to put her in... After that, I'll replace the denim/sand.
Probably the first time I've felt that people weren't "yelling" at me because of my mediocre pet care.
It's kinda sad though, because Toothless likes digging himself in at bedtime....

And thanks for the welcome, Jess!
 

DaddyGeek

Juvie Member
Aurren":2nmep2uk said:
It's kinda sad though, because Toothless likes digging himself in at bedtime....

\


Bevo likes to snuggle in too so maybe try putting a hand towel in with them. Bevo's towel is in his hide and he loves it. I have heard of a lot of other people doing similar things.
 

Jess

Extreme Poster
Aurren":3i0lpvvy said:
Probably the first time I've felt that people weren't "yelling" at me because of my mediocre pet care.
It's kinda sad though, because Toothless likes digging himself in at bedtime....

And thanks for the welcome, Jess!

It's not your fault, you were just following the "advice" your friend gave you. You came to this site to get help, so that shows that you care very much about your new little buddies. :)

You're welcome!

Oh, and I give Dudley a piece of fleece to dig in at night. Sometimes he scrunches it up and uses it as a pillow, LOL!

DSC00955.jpg
 
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