My vet said Reptiworms are not good......

[anderous]

So i just got a positive coccidia count in my beardie, and i was discussing his diet and the opinion of my very qualified vet (he works for the zoo here and writes college biology textbooks) is that reptiworms are not good at all for a staple insect, basically a high calcium mealworm. he said that the problem is that as the worms get bigger their nutritional content shifts radically to mostly fat, so by the time you have a large reptiworm, its just fat and calcium. He said that is the problem with all larvae, and that the reason silkworms are good is because the size you feed them at is very small compaired to there eventual size, meaning when you feed them they are much more immature, therefore are much better, same for any other worm, only good if fed when immature, making small worms, or maggots like reptiworms, not very good because by the time they are big enough to feed, there useless. he told me to keep feeding gutloaded crix and my roaches and only offer the reptiworms sparringly, like mealworms or waxworms. I just wanted to post this and see what people think, since on here i have read many times that reptiworms (black soldier fly maggots) are a good staple, and yet my vet has said they are virtually worthless

 

[Kaiser]

As an owner of a bearded dragon who's been fed on both crickets and black soldier fly larvae (particularly Reptiworms), I have to say that this is a topic of interest for me. But because I made the switch from crickets to Reptiworms, I certainly tried to do as much research as possible as to whether or not Reptiworms could be a suitable staple for bearded dragons. I know that crickets have been used as a staple for much longer than Reptiworms, and that there is probably a lot more research done on their nutritional breakdown as opposed to Reptiworms.

However, I was able to find some research and studies done on both (as well as a number of other insects) and their nutritional breakdown. I'm not saying these documents or studies are absolute fact, however, as the internet isn't exactly the most reliable source, but for the most part, a lot of these documents seem to be from scientific papers, stores dedicated to providing feeder insects, and/or actual lab analyses.

I'll provide a few and pull a few numbers to make it easier to keep track of things:

- The Reptiworms website itself has had a lab analysis conducted on their product: http://www.reptiworms.com/info.php?articles&articles_id=6&sid=jk78cje3boplisjoni5pejtte6. Protein: 15.71%, Calcium: 0.43%, Phosphorous: 0.30%, Ca/P: 1.43, and Crude Fat: 8.09%.

- The Phoenix Worms wesbite, which also produce and sell black soldier fly larvae as a reptile feeder insect shows similar numbers (which vary most likely due to differences in what is fed to their feeder insects): http://www.phoenixworm.com/servlet/the-template/comparison/Page. Protein: 17.3%, Calcium: 8155 ppm, Phosphorous: 5355 ppm, Ca/P: 1.52, and Crude Fat: 9.4%.

- Crickets generally fall within the averages: Protein: low 20s %, Calcium: mid 300s ppm, Phosphorous: 4000s ppm, Ca/P: 0.07-0.09%, and Crude Fat: 6-ish %. Mealworms generally fall within the ranges: Protein: low 20s %, Calcium: 100s ppm, Phosphorous: 3000s ppm, Ca/P: 0.04-ish %, and Crude Fat: 12.7-ish %. Based on a few studies, with a few links being: http://www.grubco.com/Nutritional_Information.cfm, http://www.phoenixworm.com/servlet/the-template/comparison/Page.

From what I can access, black soldier fly larvae aren't really all too high in fat, and seems to be the mean between crickets and mealworms in terms of fat. In fact, superworms, which seem to be another common staple for adult-sized bearded dragons, have a much higher fat content than the larvae, crickets, and the mealworms themselves. The larvae also have better Ca/P ratios than either of the two, and the protein is relatively close. I wouldn't say that a black soldier fly larva is just a "high calcium mealworm."

Once again, however, I'm not saying that these numbers are entirely factual; I suppose take them with a grain of salt. But the same can be said about the veterinarian (not that I'm accusing either; just saying that either side may not really know everything there is to the black soldier fly larvae, as they are relatively new in terms of being used as a staple). I'm sure some of these studies, if not all, have very qualified researchers behind them, such as Dr. Phoenix of the Phoenix Worms website and the lab analysts at Eurofins Scientific Inc. Nutritional Analysis Center.

I guess the real question would then be to ask whether or not it is true that the black soldier fly larvae shift in terms of nutritional content as the age, and if these studies conducted could be applied to all stages (or at least, the stages being sold as feeders) of their larval life cycle.

Anyway, thank you for bringing this up, as it's quite an interesting thing to hear about, as, like you've said, many people do use black soldier fly larvae as a staple. I'd like to hear more about other people's concerns about this as well, and I hope that some of what I've said can provide some insight, or at least, something to think about.

 

[Vacren]

For a couple hundred years doctors used to advocate removing toxins from your blood. The way they did this was to insert a catheter into your wrist with a tube attached to the protruding end. This allowed any "toxins" or "demons" (depending on whether this was church ordered or purely by your doctor) to be forcibly pulled from your body. After ~6-8 weeks of rehabilitation time, during which you were closely examined daily by the doctor, you were back on your feet. This is all assuming you survived losing 1/2 of your total blood volume. All of this was paid for in advance.

Good luck listening to that doc, lol.

 

[mostlyharmlessnj]

Is it just me, or does it sound like the vet is talking about superworms...

 

[Cinder9]

Ive seen beardies that were fed nothing but reptiworms as a staple since they were very young and were perfectly healthy and big going into adulthood so i think this vet may have been thinking of some other worm like mostlyharmlessnj said. I feed mine them and hes doing fine and is perfectly healthy.

 

[anderous]

he is actually an exellent vet, he spayed my female nile monitor several years ago due to egg binding and has saved quite a few of my other reptiles in the past, i do agree he is a little bit over zealous in terms of food quality so i was just wanting other opinions, and those numbers look good for reptiworms, my only question is wheather they would change depending on size, i think a good chart of small, medium and large reptiworms nutrient breakdown would be hugely helpful to everyone. im not going to stop using them, but as i feed crickets and roaches as well, even if they are not that great i still have other food insects, cause whatever the answer is, variety is still the best option, cant beat that. my vet said He is currently trying to get funding to get nutrient breakdown for several roach species so i will hopefully be able to give info if he ever gets that done

 

[anderous]

also if you want to know, ill post a link to his clinics site, as i said they are the best reptile vet anywhere near my area (portland oregon) and he does work for the zoo too

http://www.swanimalhospital.net/

my vet is Dr. Mark E. Burgess, there practice is 95% exotic pets, they see almost no other animals

 

[Reptiworms]

Thanks for a very good topic,

It is true that black solider flys ratios do change as they get older. The analysis from the website is of a large reptiworm. A large reptiworm will not continue to grow after this point and will only start to pupate and turn into a fly. I assure you that their fat content is MUCH lower then that of a superworm and mealworm.
Reptiworms are very good for a growing animal and should be used along with lettuce/greens.

http://www.reptiworms.com/info.php?articles&articles_id=6&sid=jk78cje3boplisjoni5pejtte6
Protein: 15.71%, Calcium: 0.43%, Phosphorous: 0.30%, Ca/P: 1.43, and Crude Fat: 8.09%

 

[animalspecialties]

If you search the web you will find many different opinions about which insect is best to feed. Some of which is fact and some which is just opinion. Here is an analysis of silkworm vs cricket

...Let's compare the value of the silkworm vs. the common cricket:

content . Silkworms . Crickets
Protein - 63.8% - 11.4%
Calcium - .34% - .08%
Fat - 10.6% - 22.7%
Carbohydrate - 18.2% - 56.0%
Ash - 7.4% - 9.9%

This analysis was completed by an external UKAS accredited laboratory.
The Silkworms were fed on a diet consisting entirely of Artificial Silkworm Diet.
...

This is the analysis of the LARGE Reptiworm BSF larvae.

Protein: 15.71%, Calcium: 0.43%, Phosphorous: 0.30%, Ca/P: 1.43, and Crude Fat: 8.09% Carbohydrates 4.40 % Ash = 2.34 % Water 69.40%

When converted to dry weight values for comparison (factoring out the water), they are

Protein: 51.00 %, Calcium: 1.41%, Phosphorous: 0.98%, Ca/P: 1.43, and Crude Fat: 26.49% Carbohydrates 14.41 Ash 7.66 %

As you can see Reptiworms are closer to the silkworm in values than a cricket.

Reptiworms also have more than 4 times the Calcium of silkworms and more than 17 times the Calcium of a cricket.

As well as an optimum range CaP ratio of 1.43:1

Saying that any mature larvae is just fat and calcium is patently incorrect and ignores what transpires in the pupal stage. The body's tissues are restructured to become the adult insect. Fat, which is stored in the larval stage, is consumed because the pupal stage does not eat and requires energy. Muscle structures, which are rearranged from the larval stage, contain much of the protein present in the larval stage. Calcium is used in the fabrication of such structures as wings, legs, etc. The point is that ALL stages of insects will have protein, fat, carbohydrates, ash, Calcium, Phosphorus, etc.

What will be different is the percentage. Some of that difference will be diet dependent. Waxworms which feed on bees wax (a fat based material) will have a much higher fat content. Insects which do not go through a larval stage but develop more directly through nymphs to the adult usually have less fat stored. Silkworms are raised on an artificial prepared diet, commercial domestic Crickets are usually raised on a Purina prepared Cricket diet, and Reptiworms are grown on our specifically formulated & prepared grain diet.

The benefits of the Reptiworms are that they are high in Calcium, have a Ca ratio within the optimum range, and have amounts of proteins, fat and carbs which are needed for growth and development in herps.

Silkworms are a good food. So are Reptiworms.

When looking at Calcium Reptiworms are better.

With this being said, it is always best to feed a varied diet. We raise over 2000 Bearded Dragons here at Animal Specialties. We feed hundreds of thousands of Reptiworms weekly. Yet we still feed a mixture of greens and a prepared diet (Nature Zone's Bearded Dragon Bites) as well.

By the way the cost of a nutrient analysis is less than $ 100.00.
Most zoos and other institutions have such analyses done frequently.

I hope this clears up some of the fog about the nutrient content of Reptiworms.

 

[anderous]

exellent post, thank you, i feel much better about feeding reptiworms now