My heart attack--should I still touch base with the reptile

[munchkins9802]

I apologize if this is not the right forum (I told story in gen discussion) but need to know if I need to be concerned.
so here is the story:
Well we come home and not even 10 seconds into the room I hear my 10 yr old in a panicked and crying voice "Mommy, I think Hermes may have eaten too many too crickets!" I go running, expecting to see a dead lizard. Instead, I find a lizard sitting with 1 REAR leg up in an awkward position shaking like crazy.
My mode went into "oh great impaction" (even tho we have been very careful about the crickets and if it isn't smaller than the space between his eyes we don't feed it to him"). While I hold him, I tell her to get a warm bath ready for him. During the bath time, he sits for a minute than starts running around, jumping to get out,etc -acting like he usually does during bath--even using all limbs normally.
We wrap him warmly, heat up his cage some more (for some reason his hot side went down from 94 to 88) and put him back in with his washcloth on top (I need to get him his own fabric blanket-). I come back, he is running around like a mad man, loooking at us like "What is all the excitement about people?"
Later, I come to find out that my 10 yr old found him totally flat on his log with his legs totally flat behind him. She then gently picked him up and placed him on his log where his one leg to her looked finally-sort of sitting up (which he does daily anyway) and she tapped his leg "very lightly" and that is apparently when his leg started doing the shaking!!!!
And here I thought she had found him like that! So I told her if she thinks something is not looking right to come find me and we can determine if a vet call and/or visit will be needed.
So to be safe, we left his light on a little longer than usual. And he is now asleep in his one corner under his branch where it is tricky to keep it above 65 at night but usually 65-68 at night (this side is usually 93-98 at daytime).
He was jumping up on his plastic cactus and running through his water dish after all this
Needless to say I will not be totally relaxed tonight and will check on him often (I usually do anyway but tonight more so I am sure)
One last thing--I had a question: when they say the space "between the eyes" do they mean the bumps on the top of the head or from eye to eye?
SO please pray that this scare was a mistake on dd's part (she is in tears that she may have harmed her baby).
Thanks for listening. And I will probably touch base with the reptile vet tomorrow just so she knows what has happened)

 

[Drache613]

Hello,
How old is your dragon?
The size rule is that the crickets should be no larger than the space between the eyes. The length should not be any wider than the space between the eyes usually a little smaller is better.
Are you using UVB lighting, & if so what type & brand are you using? A flourescent tube bulb or a compact or coil light?
Are you using calcium supplementation?
What do you measure his temperatures with, a stick on thermometer, a digital probe or a temp gun? His basking temps should run around 95-110 & the cool side should be 78-82.
A baby should be fed 2-3 times per day & can eat as much as they want within a 10-15 minute timeframe normally. Or they will just lose interest & you know they are full.
Was it just one leg that was shaking?

Tracie

 

[munchkins9802]

Tracy
we got him from a reputable pet store that breeds the dragons (small and around many years) They said he was 6-8 weeks old when we got him, it will be 3 weeks this Saturday that we got him. So

he is 9-11 weeks old
We give him crickets 1/4" or smaller. We measured the top of his eye where it is like a bump to the other side and he measures 1/2"
we use the reptisun 10.0 UVB light and a basking light. The basking side is usually at 94-100 during the day and the cooler side about 78
I give the crickets the calcium pellets every other day (although our lizard will eat less on those days) Should I be dusting the crickets with the repti-cal dust instead? He eats anywhere between 5-20 crickets at each feeding and eats 4 times a day
He is offered water daily, is spritzed regulary and is bathed every other day. HE is offered a salad mix of collards and carrots with some romaine lettuce when he first wakes up.
His substrate is reptile carpet and we clean as soon as he poops (and before this incident he pooped 4times that afternoon which was well formed with urate)
He also shed on part of his body yesterday before all of this happened

As for the other question: yes, it was only 1 leg shaking.
Thanks for your help

 

[munchkins9802]

oh when I say pet stoe I don't mean petsmart or anything like that, It is a local pop store and the guy has been around for years. He tells me to call him anytime, gave me a name of a reptile vet that is also a name on a list recommended here. I would have called him last night but his store was shut down by 9:30pm when this happened.
I will be keeping an extra careful eye and even tho I know these are the right size crickets, I will go to the store today to see if I can find even smaller ones until my shipment from premiumcrickets arrives tomorrow.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,
Yes, I would dust the crickets because he probably is not getting enough calcium just by eating the crickets. At his age, he needs a good calcium dusting once daily, 5 times per week. That should help him out alot. He is growing rapidy right now.
Your UVB light is fine as long as it is the flourescent tube bulb. Make sure it is 6-8 inches from him, & directly beside the basking light, too.
Great job your setup looks pretty good. You could increase his basking temps safely from a range of 95-110 which could help him process his food more efficiently.
That is excellent you feed him 4 times per day so he is getting a good opportunity for protein intake.
Let me know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[dreshany]

Hello, I am glad your little one perked up. I would definitely use a calcium powder and a separate multi vitamin. My thoughts from your description is that he might have gotten a little too cold; although I am not sure about the leg shaking. Has he been shaking is leg any since the bath?
Maybe the temps dropped and he fell asleep. When your daughter put him on his log, it's possible, he could have been sitting funny and just too cold/sleepy to move. The warm bath probably helped raise his temperature. From the sounds of it, he is doing fine and I wouldn't worry too much, unless he begins to show some other problems.
I would definitely get the extra calcium and begin dusting immediately though. When they are growing so quickly, they can develop MBD rapidly.
Let us know how he's doing

 

[munchkins9802]

Thanks! He has done it 2x since. But yesterday it was only wehn my 10 yr old moved him. Today he was fine this morning but then he did it with me (with both legs which sent me into a tailspin of panic until the vet talked with me) about 45 mins ago. BUt is acting normal as normal can be for a dragon (running around, eating his greens ,etc)
After the bath he is totally fine and sometimes he is fine after about 1 minute of holding him. He doesn't do it often. Poops regularly. After this last incident
Yes the UVB is the TUBE
I put a call into the reptile vet who said he probably is fine but recommended and overall health check to make sure and will probably do an overall check on the lizard just to be sure (just not sure how to transport him to the vet so he isn't too stressed but also stays warm!). I also think my daughter should be with me when I go but not sure how possible that will be with her schedule .
For the reptile vet-I made sure she dealt with bearded dragons before and she has dealt with them, iguanas, geckos, snakes as well as common household animals but seems to specialize in exotics. I am going to call them again and ask what a comprehensive exam entails in their office (what should one entail?)
He was hand waving to me through the glass within minutes of this activity. So, again on the mend.
Will try to raise his temps up some more. We have a red bulb that we put on VERY LOW at night time to keep his temps to 65-68 but am hopeful to get a better way to warm his cage at night.
Thanks for the help and responses and we will keep you updated

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Good that your UVB is the tube, I was just making sure.
So he is doing better now & not having as many seizures then? Great, hopefully his appetite will improve & he will start getting better real soon for you.
So he was arm waving to you huh?
Usually a comprehensive exam would include weight, bloodwork which could include the complete blood count (CBC) & an ionized calcium test, fecal, & an x-ray. A normal exam is usually just a fecal & weight & just a general look over to ensure their eyes look good, no bone deviations are present, the scales are healthy looking, etc.
You are probably looking at $200 to $300 including the office visit if you get all of that done. It is up to you what you want done. Usually when you are dealing with a calcium problem, I highly suggest in the very least a bloodtest to get a baseline reading, for future references if you have any other problems. Since he does not have any bone deviations yet, you could probably put off an x-ray unless you just wanted to get one done to see if his bones appear dense. Usually it takes awhile for the bones to begin losing density so the first warning sign is hypocalcemia by seeing the low calcium readings on the blood test.
I hope he is doing better today!

Tracie

 

[munchkins9802]

Tracie
He had improved then had a bad case of it this morning but seems fine now (and he had a BIG shed last night). We have upped his calcium intake (I(dusting 2x a day instead of1x that I started). I occasionally also add another 60 watt bulb and aim towards the bottom since heat rises. We are trying to find ways to keep the basking side appropriate for him without spending another fortune

We suspect it is the beginning signs for the calcium deficiency), have added a under the tank/side of cage heater to the side of his cage., increased the calcium intake, etc

I talked with our local reptile expert, Leonard Knapp and he felt it could possibly be the beginning of the calcium deficiency and thinks it is nothing critical but agreed that a vet trip close by is worth it (he said don't stress him by going to the other reptile vets 1+ hrs away since it is so cold). He said it could possibly be a neurological thing instead of that.

I have read the beginning signs of this don't show up until a few weeks, and we have only had him 3 weeks today. He is up there happy as a clam right now.

Is it possible that he had this before we got him and the signs showed up more because I didn't know to dust the crickets DAILY, I had only given calcium pellets every other day. Since this started we gave dusted the crickets 1x/day and today did 2x on advice of the reptile expert and the vet.

He has an appointment with a vet who has experience with bearded dragons, iguanas, house lizards in addition to cats, birds,etc
Finally we want to get him a good vitamin, is there one you would recommend and how often should I give it to him?
Is it okay to dust his crickets more than 1x/day until we get him to the vet?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Ok, well that is a plan. How is he doing today?
What are the overall ambient temps in the tank? Make sure that the basking temps stay within 95-110 & the cooler end doesn't get any warmer than 83 or so. Otherwise, he will get overheated.
Well, it is possible that before you got him he had not had the proper lighting & supplementation which could have kicked this off.
Since he is still young, his calcium demand is pretty high so it doesn't take long to develop small signs of low calcium. It is very minor so it will be very easily fixable, no problem.
I don't think it is a neurological problem though, he would have other symptoms that would affect balance & coordination.
I think dusting once daily should be sufficient now. You don't want to overdo it or he will get dehydrated from all of the powder.
Is he eating pretty well?
Good that you are taking him to the vet next week.

Tracie

 

[munchkins9802]

Tracie
He isn't up yet. I will let you know. How do you put a digital probe in a branch and/or hammock?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Just lay the wire with the probe across the hottest portion directly underneath the basking spot near where he sits most. You may have to slightly tape it down so it will stay put.

Tracie

 

[munchkins9802]

Thanks Tracie. His heat has improved and so far NO TWITCHING today! I was only able to find Herptvite with or without Vitamin D I can't find it w/o Vitamin A as you mentioned. Is this still okay to give 1x a week (we are going to see what the vet recommends

We did get the digital probe thermometer and after 1 hr , it says his favorite basking spot (at least one of them) is 98.2 degrees and his cool side is about 77 degrees. He has only eaten about 22 crickets total today--usually about 50 in a day but he often alternates the days he eats a lot. He doesn't seem as interested in his water spritz but I did find him on his hid legs near his water dish. I might have dd give him a bath. yesterday he pooped 3x, today unless it is under his log, he hasn't pooped yet. Don't know when he will poop. He doesn't usually poop in his bath though--he isn't fond of the warm bath yet and I am still trying to make sure it is not too warm and not too hot in bathtime
Quite alert content etc. We will continue with what we are doing and still keep his appt with the vet. I have a big tupperware container that I am going to line with a bath towel for him, then heat up the car bring him to the car and drape another towel over the tupperware container (yes it has room for breathing and is deep enough he can't jump out)
We saw medium size beardies today (1 about 1yr old) that were so cute. I wanted to bring home another one but didnt
Also, he is currently in a 10 gallon tank but will be moved to a 20 gallon tank in 2 weeks.(we will get him and dd one for valentine's day , I just need to get an area in her room clean that can support the tank without it falling down)
Thanks again for helping ease our concerns and I am glad to hear vitamin deficiency when caught early is quite treatable

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Great that there has not been any twitching today. Yes, the calcium intake you are giving will be fine until you get some liquid calcium from the vet.
I just wanted to share a report with you regarding the Zilla T-50 tropical series on the hazards of them. Here is a site:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor.htm

The herptivite does not have vitamin A it has beta carotene which is the precursor of vitamin A so that is fine. It is the best vitamin to use.
The basking spot of 98 is fine, you can bump that up to over 100 if you want to. At least he did eat some crickets though that is good.
The cooler end should be around 80 or so but the 77 is ok.
Hopefully he will like his baths after awhile. Some take to it much more quickly than others do.
You will need to move him one more time after putting him into the 20 gallon. Adults need at least a 75 gallon tank when they are full grown to move around more comfortably.

Keep us posted on him.

Tracie

 

[munchkins9802]

Tracie
Thanks! He has always eaten his crickets even with the twitching. THere was one small twitch of his leg near the end of the day but he had jumped from his log and landed in his water dish but he is fine.
WE put the probe directly on the hammock and it got to 98 today. The cooler side is up to about 80 in the afternoon. The top of his other favorite spot is his branch at the top (decorative from the pet store ), and that reads 105. He goes to the bottom of the branch or his log in the middle of the cage when he wants to cool off Thanks for the rzilla stuff. We are planning on getting a new bulb with the new cage
Yes, we know we will need to get to the 40 or larger when he is bigger--a church friend has a 55 gallon for us but right now we don't have room for that big but will in the next few months.
He also gave me a quick scare in the bath he didn't want to stay and after a few mins of stroking his back gently he decided it was time to flatten down well needless to say I got him right back up (not even 1/8 of a second later as I saw the water side there was too deep)
He did finally poop today. HE is a character and was on top of his decorative cactus from the pet store as well. Silly boy.
He has definitely going and he has some very bright coloring tohims