my dragons diet, for those who dont care for live feeders

[ripbabey]

So for the past several months I have owned baby tyson I have had a lot to worry about. His state if health, diet, viv setup. He/she because I was told he was male, but I see know lumps on the underside of tail lol, has had a change of diet.

I currently feed my sub adult dragon , these convienient little moisturized pieces called dragon bites. I get them from petco, along with a flukers medley treat with meal worms, crickets , and grasshoppers. This is my only dragon ever owned. So I don't know if this diet is proper. He/she looks healthy, active, happy , normal poop + green from the bites. Every once in a while I give my dragon super worms and live crickets as a treat.

According to the bites and medley containers my dragon seems to be getting the proper diet. I know a lot of people have problems getting dragons to eat bites. But if they do ( like mine ) is this not the most ideal diet. My dragon appears to be a healthy looking weight, looking at tyson, tyson looks perfectly healthy.

Am I mal nurishing my dragon in any way by not feeding live crickets and greens every day? He never touches the greens, even if I mix dragon bites in um he picks out the bites lol , he even goes for the bites before the insect medley lol. He never really seems thirsty, everyonce in a while he will drink from the mist bottle, but I think he gets enough water from the bites, I also spray them down with a little extra water.

Just wondering if my diet seems good, no real problems with my lil dragon.


Temps (ambient) 85 (basking) 103
Substrate - repticarpet
Lighting, reptisun 10.0 tube

 

[Drache613]

Moved by Moderator from Health to Feeding

 

[Lurhstaap]

In all honesty, I don't trust those packages. They can write whatever the heck they want on them. There is little to no meaningful legal regulation about pet foods, especially those intended for animals other than dogs, cats, horses, and other most commonly kept pets/animals. He may seem healthy, but that's because you have nothing to compare him to. I made PRECISELY the same mistake with Sunset at first, as far as thinking he was fine when he wasn't. x.x When I improved his setup and diet, the change in him was ASTONISHING. What I thought was a healthy look was in fact significantly underweight! Not starving-underweight, but definitely not healthy.

Basically... no, the diet you are giving is absolutely NOT adequate, based on both my experience and research.

First of all, the mealworms/grasshoppers/crickets "treat" is absolutely nutritionally WORTHLESS. If the package says otherwise, it's lying. Mealworms are nutritionally useless to begin with, and the drying/preserving process robs the crickets and grasshoppers of any value they originally had (which frankly was low to begin with -- live crickets are only an acceptable feeder, not a great one, and grasshoppers are usually not given to beardies at all. This is the first I've heard of anyone doing that.)

Second, while the prepared kibble may have some nutrition, it certainly is NOT nutritionally complete and s/he won't get nearly enough moisture from it even if you wet it first. Even if you dislike giving live feeders, you absolutely MUST feed fresh greens, veggies, and fruit for your dragon to be healthy. I can't emphasize that enough. The older it gets the more true that becomes.

How big is your dragon? Superworms are a little better, nutritionally, than mealworms, but they can cause impaction in dragons shorter than about 15-16 inches. Personally I avoid them because impaction scares me and I don't want to take the risk until my two are over 16". If Tyson is bigger than that, though, then the supers are fine as a treat. Live crickets should NOT be a treat, however, they should be a daily staple. Either crickets or some other appropriate LIVE insect such as black soldier fly larvae (often sold under such brand names as Phoenix Worms, Reptiworms, and Calciworms.) I wish there were some really good premade food for dragons that is actually good for them, like there's Blue Buffalo and such for cats and dogs, but there just isn't so far as I know. All the premade foods I've ever looked at were junk, at least as a staple. You can offer it as a treat or supplement to the diet, but it just doesn't work as a staple and certainly not as the majority of the diet!

Personally, here is what I feed mine now. Every day they get collard greens, and, if I can get it, cactus pads and fruits (from the prickly pear cactus), plus grated spaghetti, acorn, and butternut squash. I also add one more thing to the daily salad which changes every day, not using the same 'special thing' more than once or twice a week, from this list: Yellow bell pepper, hibiscus flower, nasturtium flower, viola flower (johnny-jump-ups, violets, and pansies), celery greens, chopped green beans, apple, papaya, or banana. For insects, every day they get as many crickets as they can eat -- usually two or three dozen right now -- plus as many phoenix worms, butterworms, and/or hornworms as they want, if I have them (I have to mail-order them and they may eat them all up before I can afford to buy more.) In short, the fundamental bases of their diet are collard greens and crickets, but while they eat more of those two things than anything else, they wouldn't be nearly as healthy if they ate ONLY those two things. Variety is essential IMO.

Since starting this, and adding a proper UVB lamp, the change in Sunset from what I used to do is just indescribable. He is so much bigger, stronger, and more active than he was before. I am ashamed that I mistreated him for so long. Please do not feel that I am attacking you -- I am trying to save you from making the same mistake and then hating yourself later like I did. x.x

Make these changes and you will see a major difference. What you thought looked healthy before will suddenly seem skinny and weak and lifeless.

As to other subjects besides diet, the temperatures sound good, fortunately, although I have a question about the ambient temp -- is that the whole cage? There should be a warm side and a cool side, with a temp difference of about 10-20 degrees perhaps, so that the dragon can control its temperature by moving around. In particular they need a cooler temperature to sleep properly at night than they require during the day.

Your dragon is used to the bites, and in many ways they are like candy. So you are going to have to wean him off them before he will accept healthy food. It's like taking a teenager who's used to eating whatever they want and putting them on a healthy diet. There WILL be resistance and you CANNOT give in just because he doesn't like the healthy food right away. Do NOT offer the bites again until your dragon is willingly stuffing his face with greens and live insects. Stop feeding the insect medley altogether -- IMO it's a waste of money. If you really want to give him treats, the worms I mentioned above don't cost all that much more than the medleys, especially if you buy bulk, and they're MUCH more nutritious.

 

[ripbabey]

Thanks for your reply, and I understand your concern, thus the reason I'm asking. I have not found any info on the bites, because people tell me how lucky I am my dragon will eat them. My dragon looks super healthy looking at tons of healthy dragon pics. He shows no sign of discomfort, he has a big ole buddah belly, healthy looking fat tail, poop seems proper consistancy and seems to have enough water because they are def wet and firm. If he showed any signs of mall nourishment I would be worried. Every pet store has said its a complete diet thats very good for him, the medley is just a little something for him to snack on when he finishes his bites. I still occasionally about twice a week get him some live feeders.

I'm not thinking your attacking me, I know your concerned so here is a picture of him so you know he is not a skinny boney dragon LOL.

http://db.tt/8HB0XoDZ

 

[ripbabey]

Btw, when I first got him, I had him on veggies, and crickets with calcium, he did eat t but a few months ago is when I found these bites, he actually seems happier and healthier since switching to the bites. I'm no expert, its my first dragon, can only tell you what I know, based on what I know, thanks again any and all help

 

[Falconeer999]

I'm by no means an expert, or even consider myself slightly above beginner, but I'd caution against equating a big belly with being signs of a healthy diet. Food items can be unhealthy for a lizard in the long run but still lead to weight gain and healthy appearance in the present; much like people living off McDonald's - sure you'll live (and have a nice big belly) but in the long run, it isn't healthy for you.

Like I said, I'm by far no expert, so I'll defer to any of them, but it's just 'food for thought'. (Pardon the pun!)

 

[ripbabey]

Haha I'm just trying to work with what I know and what I le arn, I really do appreciate the concern B-)

 

[Lurhstaap]

I have to agree with what the other poster said about the bites being similar to McDonalds for dragons. Since my first reply I have done some more research, and I have found many stories of dragons developing fatty liver disease and other disorders after being fed primarily on the bites for long periods. Obviously this won't happen to every single dragon fed on the bites, and it's ultimately your choice, but personally I would not want to take the risk. Especially since it's probably less expensive to feed the salads, at least, although live feeders can be a little pricy if you don't either buy bulk or keep breeding colonies at your home.

And sorry about all the fussing... some people do take this kind of constrictive critique personally and respond as if they were being insulted or shamed, so I often feel a strong need to try to head that kind of thing off before it happens when I say something I'm afraid the other person might not want to hear. I am very glad that you are genuinely seeking information, whether or not you actually decide to change how you feed your dragon. Many people would have posted this supposedly seeking information but in reality just wanting to be patted on the back and told how awesomely they're doing and what a good owner they are. Basically they want an ego boost. Those are the people who tend to interpret any kind of response that isn't 100% positive as an attack or insult. It's very difficult to tell what a person is really wanting to hear from what they write so I never know how people will react. Thank you for not being so reactive as some people!

In any event, I am not at all surprised to learn that he seems to like the pellets a lot better. If you had been living on nothing but veggies and then someone gave you a fast food cheeseburger, and told you that would be dinner from now on, would you not be delighted? And probably gain some weight? What specific veggies were you feeding? It may have been that they weren't the best to offer. It can be VERY difficult to get information about which kinds of veggies are best for dragons. I don't remember if I linked this site before the last time I posted but just in case I didn't here it is again:

http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html

That is an EXTREMELY useful page, with all the data you need to put together a healthy diet for your dragon. It even has information on some garden and outside plants, and some insect feeders.

Speaking of insect feeders, since he does like the bites, might I suggest a combination of hornworms and butterworms as a replacement if you do decide to switch him off them as a staple? Hornworms grow up to four inches long, and they have a very soft body with no chitin, and the "horn" is just a bit of skin, so they can't cause impaction and they're a wonderful blue or green color that gets a dragon's attention immediately in my experience. So you don't need nearly as many well-grown hornworms to feed even a large dragon as you would crickets, or especially things like black soldier fly larvae/Phoenix Worms. Butterworms meanwhile are very fatty, so you don't want to offer these as a staple except to a dragon which is underweight and needs to put on poundage, but they are also extremely high in calcium, making them a very good treat. I offer a few to my dragons every day or every other day.

If you would like a different staple insect than crickets, black soldier fly larvae are just wonderful. They're pretty small, so you have to feed a lot of them if you're using them as a staple, but they're chock full of calcium and low in fat, making them one of the healthiest insects you can offer a dragon. Dubia and discoid roaches are also commonly offered to dragons and are very good for them but I have no direct experience.

You are right that he is not skinny, but he also isn't as robust as he could be. The way his sides wrinkle also suggests dehydration but it could just be the way he's sitting. It's hard to tell on that one. My personal opinion is that while the bites may be superior to whatever you were giving him before, there are still better things you can offer him which are much healthier, and which he may like just as much or more than the bites, which don't carry the disease and obesity risk that the bites carry.

 

[ripbabey]

Thank you for the in depth information. I have done a lot of my own research as well, most of which have taken me to your posted sites. I do know what you mean with the pat on the back comment, I have seen some arguments LOL. I however appreciate your comments. I don't ask questions, to be told what I want to hear. I'm going to have to try some different veggies and see how he does, he is about to sef his back, he just got done with his tail so he is a little grumpy and don't want to change his diet right in the middle of that! Ill start figuring a new plan of attack on his diet for when he finishes.

Thanks again for the very informative reply

 

[Lurhstaap]

Yeah, my male gets very grumpy when he's shedding, too, and often refuses to eat everything, or anything except one or two specific foods. (For a period of about three days he once snubbed ALL food except collard greens.) I agree that a major shed period is probably not the best time to introduce him to new foods. XD He'll be in a much more accepting mood with regard to new foods immediately after the shed is finished, at least based on my experience with my two. They tend to be hungriest right after the old skin comes off.

 

[ripbabey]

He seems to big to be going through a whole body shed , he is shedding head, back front arms and lower half of his tail , I thought this only happened with little dragons. He had been looking like a shed for a couple weeks, its finally starting to come off after a two day sleep... Poor dragon. He let's me pet him for a second, before swatting at me, than he realizes he can't SWAT me away, and than arm waves, saying you win, now please leave me be lol

 

[Lurhstaap]

Adult dragons shed, too. It happens less often than with younger dragons who are still growing, but all reptiles shed periodically throughout their lives. He sounds like he's going through a normal shed period to me.