My beardie had seizures and now neurological problems??

[laurenB]

Just to clarify, she didn't say 7 cc's of liquid calcium per day, just 7 cc's of liquid period

 

[EllenD]

I'm so sorry you went to that vet, boy she really was clueless. Unfortunately it's very difficult to find a Certified Reptile/Herp vet anywhere in this country, or most countries, and general vets know nothing and usually won't even see reptiles, which is good because "exotics" vets are simply general vets that are willing to see animals other than dogs and cats, that's literally the only difference between a general vet and an "exotics" vet in the US, no extra education or experience necessary to use that designation of "exotic" vet.

First of all, there is no wavelength or strength of UVB light that can penetrate any glass or hard clear plastic at all, none, so yes you are correct in that he's gotten absolutely no UVB light for at least a year...so how could he not have MBD? And again, you cannot tell if a dragon has MBD by looking at him, only an x-ray to see his bone density or blood work is going to diagnose MBD. Dragons only have visible deformities from MBD if they developed the MBD as babies or juveniles, as the first year of life is when bearded dragon do 90% of their growing and physical development, the other 10% occurs during the second year of life. So if a dragon is not exposed to appropriate/adequate UVB light or not fed any calcium at all (it's lack of UVB light 99.9% of the time because they will get calcium from bugs by default) during it's first year of life and it's bone density is horribly weakened during this period when their bones are growing and developing, ONLY THEN WILL THE DRAGON DISPLAY THE TYPICAL, VISIBLE, BONY DEFORMITIES THAT YOUR VET WAS LOOKING FOR AND RULED OUT A DIAGNOSIS OF MBD BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T SEE THEM! So apparently your dragon had decent enough (or possibly very good) UVB light and diet during his first year of life so he didn't form any of those visible deformities like the obvious underbite in their jaws, the skull shape deformities, etc. "Muscle Weakness" is a symptom of MBD that is in it's later stages, while the neurological problems that your dragon is exhibiting are usually THE VERY FIRST SYMPTOMS OF MBD THAT A DRAGON SHOWS! Twitching, tremors, seizure-like activity, etc. are usually the first signal that a dragon is lacking in bone density....So unfortunately your vet should have just said "I don't know what's wrong, and I don't know what tests to run, but let me call a Certified Reptile Vet and consult with them". But she didn't so we'll see what we can do to help you guys and your dragon out.

I have no idea why your vet told you that you cannot disinfect any wood, rocks, or any other tank decor that is porous, that's just stupid of her, I'm sorry but that isn't a "reptile vet" thing, that's a stupid thing, lol. Most of us don't even buy tank decor or basking logs, branches, rocks, etc., we just go outside and find them for free in the forest!!! Obviously we have to disinfect them...uhg. All you have to do is preheat your oven to 250 degrees, place any of the wood, rocks, etc. directly on the oven rack, and bake them for 30-40 minutes. Done. Disinfected, it kills everything inside and out of the wood and rocks. And since those green hammocks do not make goo Main Basking Spots at all because they do not absorb light/heat well, you're going to need to find a solid piece of wood like a log or a thick branch, or a big rock or stack of rocks that will get within 6" of the now unobstructed UVB tube. First though, let's figure out a few things that sound like you may need to rearrange in order to help your little guy out...

#1.) Are you using a stick-on thermometer of some kind, like those round, gauge stick-on thermometers that are supposed to be for reptiles, or any type of aquarium stick-on thermometer? Or are you using either a digital probe thermometer or a Temperature Gun? In addition to giving your dragon at least 14 hours a day of adequate UVB light, he also needs to have the 3 important temperature zones within his enclosure within the correct ranges, most importantly the Basking Spot Surface Temperature. ANY OF THE STICK-ON THERMOMETERS ARE HORRIBLY INACCURATE AND WHEN TESTED ARE USUALLY OFF BY BETWEEN 10-20 DEGREES, So if you're using any type of stick-on thermometer then you really have no idea what his temps are...MORE IMPORTANTLY, YOU HAVE NO WAY TO MEASURE THE BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE WITH A STICK-ON THERMOMETER, YOU MUST HAVE EITHER A DIGITAL THERMOMETER WITH A PROBE YOU CAN SIT RIGHT ON THE BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM EXACTLY WHERE YOUR BEARDIE SITS WHEN HE IS BASKING, OR A TEMPERATURE GUN THAT YOU CAN AIM DIRECTLY ON THAT SAME SPOT!!!!! If you cannot accurately measure any of his temps, especially his Basking Spot Surface Temperature, then this is just as problematic as the inadequate UVB light was. Without a proper Basking Spot Surface Temperature he cannot digest his food or absorb any of the nutrition from it. This is going to cause just as many issues as the lack of UVB light did. SO YOU REALLY MUST GO TO PETCO OR PETSMART AND BUY A DIGITAL THERMOMETER THAT HAS A PROBE ON A WIRE FOR $9.99 (at least that's definitely what they cost at Petco, they sell a yellow ZooMed brand one for $9.99 in the reptile thermometer/thermostat/surge strip/timer rack where all the reptile light bulbs are, and they have a Petco brand one that is black in color and is located back in the aquarium section in with the air pumps and bubble wands/stones). If you already have a Digital Probe Thermometer or a Temperature Gun then I'm sorry, I just want to make sure before you set up his enclosure and his lights correctly, because without a probe to set on the Basking Spot Surface you cannot move on to doing anything else. Let me explain what I'm talking about...

You made a statement that was a red flag to me, and that was "He has his hammock on his Cool Side that put him within 7" of the UVB tube"...forgetting that the hammocks are not appropriate Main Basking Spots, his Main Basking Spot cannot be located within the Cool Side of his enclosure, it absolutely must be located within the Hot Side of the enclosure.

His enclosure should be broken into 2 sides: the Cool Side and the Hot Side. You should think of the Cool Side of his enclosure as simply the side of the enclosure that always has an Ambient (air) Temperature between 75-80 degrees, and is the place he can always go to any time he wants to go to Cool Down, and that has an Ambient Temperature that is considerably cooler than the Ambient Hot Side Temperature or the Basking Spot Surface Temperature. That's it, that is the ONLY PURPOSE OF THE COOL SIDE OF HIS ENCLOSURE, JUST A PLACE FOR HIM TO COOL DOWN. THE COOL SIDE SERVES NO OTHER PURPOSE AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS LIGHTS OR BASKING AT ALL.

Your main goal when setting up the Hot Side of his enclosure, which contains his Basking Spot within it, is to REPLICATE NATURAL SUNLIGHT AS CLOSELY AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN FOR HIM TO BASK DIRECTLY UNDER. ************The reason that his Basking Spot must be contained within the Hot Side of his enclosure is because he must not only absorb an adequate amount of UVB light that is of a proper strength for a bearded dragon, BUT HE MUST BE ABSORBING THAT UVB LIGHT AT A HIGH ENOUGH TEMPERATURE THAT ALLOWS HIM TO PROPERLY DIGEST THE FOOD THAT HE EATS!!!! If you have his Basking Spot located within the Cool Side of his enclosure he is not going to be at anywhere close to the proper temperature that will allow him to properly digest his food and to make the nutrition he is getting from his food and his supplements available for the UVB light and the vitamin D3 he is manufacturing from the UVB light to absorb and process/use all of the vitamins, minerals, calories, fat, carbs, protein, etc. Does that make sense? I hope so. Bottom line is that you must have his enclosure and lighting/temperatures set up correctly in order for him to be able to use the UVB (and UVA) light he is absorbing.

SO LET'S ASSUME YOU ALREADY HAVE EITHER A DIGITAL THERMOMETER WITH A PROBE OR A TEMPERATURE GUN AND YOU'RE READY TO SET UP HIS ENCLOSURE CORRECTLY FOR HIM (if you don't have the $10 digital thermometer with a probe on a wire or a temperature gun, then you cannot really do this correctly, so please, when you go to buy the liquid calcium please also get a digital probe thermometer (cheaper than a temperature gun by a lot) so that you can get his enclosure set up correctly and with all 3 temperature zones within the correct ranges, because this is the only way he is going to start to get better). So you've got your Digital Probe Thermometer and you've already attached the UVB tube fixture to the underside of the mesh lid:

#1.) Since you've already attached the UVB tube fixture to the underside of the mesh lid, whichever side you have it attached on is going to be the Hot Side of the enclosure; if you don't want that side to be the Hot Side of the enclosure then you're going to have to move the UVB tube fixture to the opposite side or simply flip the mesh lid around, if this is possible to do with your enclosure/tank. THE UVB TUBE FIXTURE ABSOLUTELY MUST BE ATTACHED TO THE UNDERSIDE OF THE MESH LID OVER THE HOT SIDE OF THE ENCLOSURE!!!!! NOT OPTIONAL!!!!!

#2.) I've not asked about what type of Basking Bulb you are using, but I hope it is not a colored bulb but rather a Bright White Basking Bulb. YOU SHOULD NEVER, EVER USE ANY COLORED BULBS/LIGHTS FOR A BEARDED DRAGON, THEY SEE IN FULL COLOR AND ANY COLORED BULBS CAN CONFUSE THEM AS TO WHETHER IT'S NIGHT OR DAY, AND CAN MAKE IT HARD FOR THEM TO IDENTIFY WHAT IS FOOD, THEY CAN CAUSE NEUROLOGICAL ISSUES AND ACTUALLY CAUSE A LACK OF APPETITE, LETHARGY, AND VISION ISSUES. So please do not EVER use any bulbs that are red, blue, yellow, green, purple, black, black-light or "moonlight", etc. Only ever use a Bright White Basking bulb as his heat source, after all you have to remember that your MAIN GOAL IS TO REPLICATE NATURAL SUNLIGHT AS CLOSELY AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN, SO YOU CAN'T DO THAT WITH A COLORED BULB, RIGHT?

ALSO, NEVER, EVER USE ANY BASKING BULBS THAT ARE "COIL" BULBS, OR THE BULBS THAT ARE TWISTED LOOKING, SOMETIMES CALLED "SPIRAL BULBS". Coil/Spiral/Twisted bulbs, whether we're talking about a Basking Bulb or a UVB bulb, should never be used for ANY reptiles or amphibians, as they cause serious eye damage, skin damage, blindness and serious neurological issues. I'll talk about nighttime heat later, but you should never have ANY lights on at night at all, it disrupts their sleep greatly. You can use either a Bright White reptile specialty Basking Bulb, such as a ZooMed Intense Basking Bulb (good basking bulbs), but you can even use regular household Halogen Indoor Flood Bulbs, like the ones you can buy at Lowes, Walmart, Home Depot, and I just saw packs of 2 at Tractor Supply for $5 yesterday!!! That's what most of us use. AS LONG AS THE BASKING BULB YOU ALREADY HAVE IS A BRIGHT WHITE BULB, IS NOT A "COIL/SPIRAL/TWISTY" BULB, AND IS THE CORRECT WATTAGE TO PUT THE ENCLOSURE TEMPERATURES WITHIN THE CORRECT RANGES, YOU CAN CONTINUE TO USE IT. I just have no idea what you're using as a Basking Bulb, so I wanted to make sure it was a bright white bulb and that it was not a "COIL/SPIRAL/TWISTY" bulb, because if it happens to be, that would explain at least 50% of the neurological issues he's having in addition to the MBD.

*****SO LET'S ASSUME YOU HAVE A DIGITAL PROBE THERMOMETER OR A TEMPERATURE GUN, AND YOU HAVE A BRIGHT WHITE BASKING BULB THAT IS NOT A "COIL' BULB, AND LET'S GET THE ENCLOSURE SET UP CORRECTLY FOR YOUR LITTLE GUY!*****

#3.) So you've decided which side of the enclosure is going to be the Cool Side and which side is going to be the Hot Side, and you've already got the UVB tube fixture attached to the underside of the mesh lid on the Hot Side of the enclosure. NOW YOU NEED TO PLACE YOUR BRIGHT WHITE BASKING BULB RIGHT ALONGSIDE/NEXT TO THE UVB TUBE. Of course the Bright White Basking Bulb is going to be on the outside of the enclosure and can certainly sit on top of the mesh lid (I don't know what type of fixture you have your Bright White Basking bulb in). If you have your Bright White Basking Bulb in a Deep-Dome fixture or a Clamp Lamp that can sit directly on top of the mesh lid, then simply place the Basking Bulb fixture on top of the mesh lid right alongside the UVB tube fixture where it is strapped to the underside of the mesh. Using a Deep-Dome fixture or a Clamp-Lamp fixture with the clamp removed that can sit right on top of the mesh lid is the easiest and most efficient way to get the Bright White Basking Light to project directly downward and right next tot he UVB light being emitted directly downward from the UVB tube (The Zilla Slimline fixture you have has a metal reflector behind where the UVB tube sits inside the fixture, so that the UVB light is not ONLY emitted directly downward but also throughout the enclosure, However the strongest UVB light is emitted right directly underneath the tube, which is why you want the Bright White Basking Light to be right alongside the UVB tube and emitting it's Bright White light and heat directly downward and alongside the UVB light). THIS IS HOW YOU ARE REPLICATING NATURAL SUNLIGHT, HAVING THE UVB LIGHT AND THE BRIGHT WHITE LIGHT AND HEAT BEING EMITTED DOWNWARD, RIGHT ALONGSIDE EACH OTHER OVER THE HOT SIDE OF THE ENCLOSURE. THIS IS WHAT MAKES THE "HOT SIDE" THE "HOT SIDE" OF THE ENCLOSURE!!!

4.) So now that you have both your UVB tube and your Bright White Basking Light both overtop of the Hot Side of the enclosure and right alongside each other, NOW YOU NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU ARE GOING TO USE AS HIS BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM!!! Whatever you decide to use needs to be solid and good at absorbing light and heat (not the hammock), needs to be large enough and have a flat enough area that your dragon can sit/lay on it comfortably, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY NEEDS TO GET YOUR DRAGON WITHIN 6" OF THE UNOBSTRUCTED UVB TUBE AT THE FURTHEST DISTANCE AWAY! Now 6" is actually further away than it sounds if you're using a tape measure or a ruler to measure the Platform of the Basking Spot to the exposed UVB tube within the tube fixture, especially now that you have the UVB fixture attached to the underside of the mesh lid and actually INSIDE the enclosure. MOST PEOPLE USE EITHER A NICE THICK, WIDE LOG OR BRANCH THAT YOUR DRAGON CAN CLIMB UP AND REST ATOP, A BIG ROCK OR A STACK OF ROCKS THAT HE CAN CLIMB UP, OR SOME PIECE OF MANUFACTURED DECOR THAT IS MEANT TO BE A BASKING PLATFORM. The new one I've seen that actually is really convenient and can be duplicated with other items is a Ceramic or Composite Plastic Rock Ramp that is nice and wide and is extremely easy for them to climb right up. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING RIGHT NOW THAT CAN GET HIM WITHIN 6" OF THE UVB TUBE, JUST USE THE HAMMOCK BY MOVING IT OVER TO THE HOT SIDE AT A DISTANCE OF NO FURTHER THAN 6" AWAY, IF YOU NEED THE HAMMOCK TO BE EVEN CLOSER FOR ARRANGEMENT REASONS THAT'S FINE, HE CAN SAFELY SIT AT A DISTANCE OF 4" AWAY FROM THE UVB TUBE. The hammock will be fine until you can figure out what to set up and use as a permanent Basking Spot. YOU MAY HAVE TO PHYSICALLY PICK HIM UP AND SET HIM ON THE HAMMOCK UNDER THE LIGHTS ON THE HOT SIDE FOR A WHILE UNTIL HE STARTS TO IMPROVE....

#5.) You need to place whatever you are going to use as his Basking Platform not only within 6" of the UVB tube, but it needs to obviously be located WITHIN THE HOT SIDE OF THE ENCLOSURE AND TRY TO CENTER IT SO THAT IT IS UNDERNEATH BOTH THE UVB TUBE AND THE BRIGHT WHITE BASKING BULB, SO THAT HE GETS BOTH LIGHTS AT THE SAME TIME WHILE HE IS BASKING!!! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL, AS THIS IS WHAT IS REPLICATING THE NATURE SUNLIGHT, IT IS WHAT IS GOING TO ALLOW HIM TO ABSORB BOTH THE UVB LIGHT AND THE HEAT AT THE SAME TIME, BECAUSE AS I ALREADY STATED, HE MUST NOT ONLY ABSORB THE UVB LIGHT UNOBSTRUCTED AND AT LEAST WITHIN 6' OF THE UVB TUBE, BUT HE MUST BE ON A BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM THAT IS WITHIN THE CORRECT BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE, AND THIS IS ACHIEVED BY LOCATING HIS BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM WITHIN THE HOT SIDE AND UNDERNEATH BOTH LIGHTS. Essentially, you are locating whatever you are using as his Basking Spot/Platform within the Hot Side of the enclosure and directly underneath (centered) both the UVB Tube and the Bright White Basking Bulb.

6.) That's it for the set up of the lights in his enclosure. Now you need to turn both his UVB tube and his Bright White Basking light on, and leave them on for at least an hour, this is to allow the enclosure to heat up to the temperatures it is going to normally be at using the current Bright White Basking bulb. After both the lights have been turned on for at least an hour, this is where you are going to need the Digital Probe Thermometer. ***********You always want to start measuring the 3 important temperatures inside his enclosure by measuring his Basking Spot Surface Temperature first! After both lights have been on for any hour, place the probe from the thermometer directly on the Basking Spot, on exactly the spot that your dragon will be sitting while he's basking. YOU MUST ALLOW THE PROBE OF THE THERMOMETER TO SIT ON ANY SPOT YOU ARE TAKING THE TEMPERATURE OF FOR AT LEAST 20-30 MINUTES TO ALLOW THE PROBE TO HEAT UP TO THE CORRECT TEMPERATURE AND GET AN ACCURATE READ! THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, IF YOU JUST PUT THE PROBE ON THE SPOT YOU'RE MEASURING AND THEN READ THE TEMPERATURE 5 MINUTES LATER, THE TEMPERATURE OF THE PROBE WILL BE CONTINUING TO RISE AND YOU WILL NOT GET AN ACCURATE TEMPERATURE READING AT ALL. So place the probe on the Basking Spot and allow it to sit on exactly the spot on the Basking Spot that your beardie will be sitting/laying while he's basking. Let the probe sit there for 20-30 minutes, then read the temperature on the thermometer, making sure that you're no longer seeing the digital temperature read-out still rising.

********This is your BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE...For a Bearded Dragon that is a baby or a juvenile, basically under a year to a year and a half old, you want the Basking Spot Surface Temperature to be between 105-110 degrees. For a Bearded Dragon that is over a year to a year and a half old, like your dragon, you want the Basking Spot Surface Temperature to be between 100-105 degrees.***************

8.) After you take the Basking Spot Surface Temperature, if the temperature is between 100-105 degrees then it's spot-on where it needs to be for your dragon, and you can move on to measuring the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature. If the temperature is too HIGH by only up to 10 degrees or less, you can do a few things: As long as the Basking Spot Surface Temperature is at 110 degrees or less, down to 100 degrees, you can try it out and see if he likes it that hot. 110 DEGREES IS THE HOTTEST TEMPERATURE THAT SHOULD EVER OCCUR INSIDE HIS ENCLOSURE, AND BABIES AND JUVENILES LIKE THEIR BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPS BETWEEN 105-110, ADULTS TEND TO LIKE IT JUST A BIT COOLER, BETWEEN 100-105 DEGREES, BUT IF YOU GET A READING BETWEEN 105-110, YOU CAN ROLL WITH IT AND MOVE ONTO THE NEXT TEMPERATURE MEASUREMENT. If the temperature is over 110 degrees, RAISE THE BASKING BULB/LIGHT UP AWAY FROM THE ENCLOSURE N FEW INCHES. Then wait another 20-30 minutes with the probe back on the Basking Spot, and read it again to ensure it is under 110 degrees. DO NOT ALLOW THE BASKING SPOT TO BE HOTTER THAN 110 DEGREES, IT CAN BE HARMFUL AND LETHAL IF IT IS TOO HOT. If the temperature is too LOW by only up to 10 degrees or less, you can do a couple of things: if the Basking Spot Surface Temperature is no lower than 98 degrees you can try it out and see if he likes it, and see what the Hot Side Ambient Temperature is. If the Basking Spot Surface Temperature is below 98 degrees, you can actually raise the Basking Spot/Platform up an inch towards the lights, and this should bump it to within 100 degrees. IF YOU GET A BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE THAT IS HIGHER THAN 110 DEGREES OR LOWER THAN 95 DEGREES, YOU NEED TO MOVE TO EITHER A HIGHER OR LOWER WATTAGE OF BRIGHT WHITE BASKING BULB.

9.) Once you get the Basking Spot Surface Temperature between 98-110 (these are the outer limits the Basking Spot Surface Temperature can be to try and then possibly make little tweaks to later, if it falls higher or lower than this range you have to go to a different wattage of bright white basking bulb. The range of 100-105 is the "ideal" temperature for an adult dragon, 105-110 is the "ideal" range for a baby or juvenile, but anything between 98-110 may work out just fine for your dragon. Like I said, you can make minor tweaks later. REMEMBER THAT YOU CAN ALWAYS MOVE THE BASKING BULB CLOSER TO THE BASKING SPOT OR FURTHER AWAY FROM THE BASKING SPOT TO MAKE MINOR TEMPERATURE CHANGES, BUT YOU CAN NEVER MOVE THE BASKING SPOT FURTHER THAN 6" AWAY FROM THE UVB TUBE OR CLOSER THAN 4' TO THE UVB TUBE!!!)

Once you get the Basking Spot Surface Temperature within the 98-110 degrees, then you can move on to measure the Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature. You need to move the thermometer probe off of the Basking Spot/Platform and move it down to the Hot Side area where your dragons body will be while he's just sitting/laying in the Hot Side of the tank. Most of the Digital Probe Thermometers come with a Suction Cup on the wire just before the probe, so you can simply attach the Suction Cup to the glass of the tank near the bottom of the tank BUT NOT ON THE BOTTOM, I USUALLY ATTACH THE SUCTION CUP TO THE GLASS OF THE TANK ON THE HOT SIDE OF THE ENCLOSURE ABOUT 1-2" UP FROM THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE TANK. This should put the probe in the air of the Hot Side at about the level that your dragon's head will be when he's laying on the Hot Side floor. AGAIN ALLOW THE PROBE TO SIT THERE FOR AT LEAST 20-30 MINUTES, THEN READ THE TEMPERATURE ON THE DIGITAL READ-OUT, MAKING SURE THAT THE TEMPERATURE IS NOT STILL DROPPING OR MOVING. The Hot Side Ambient (air) Temperature needs to be within 88-93 degrees.

10.) After you measure the Hot Side Ambient Temperature, you need to measure the Cool Side Ambient (air) Temperature. So move the probe over to the opposite side of the enclosure, the Cool Side, and do the same thing you just did to measure the Hot Side Ambient Temp. by attaching the Suction Cup to the Glass on the Cool Side about 1-2" up from the bottom of the enclosure. ALLOW THE PROBE TO SIT FOR 20-30 MINUTES AND THEN READ THE DIGITAL READ-OUT, MAKING SURE THAT THE TEMPERATURE IS NOT STILL DROPPING OR MOVING.The Cool Side Ambient Temperature should be between 75-80 degrees.

 

[EllenD]

*****Keep in mind that if you get a Hot Side Ambient Temp of 87 or 94 or a Cool Side Ambient Temperature of 73 or 82 this is fine. The big numbers that are extremely important is that the Basking Spot Surface Temp cannot EVER be higher than 110 degrees as this is dangerous, and it cannot EVER be lower than 98 as this will not be hot enough for him to properly digest his food. Also, you do not want the Cool Side Ambient Temp to be much higher than 80 degrees at all, I always say that 82 is your outer limit, because the Cool Side of the enclosure needs to be considerably cooler than the Hot Side Ambient Temperature so that he ALWAYS has a place he can go to cool down. If the Cool Side Ambient Temp gets down below 70 during the day this is too cold, but if it's at 70 that's okay...THE MAJOR THING TO TAKE AWAY FROM ALL THIS IS THAT BOTH THE UVB TUBE AND THE BRIGHT WHITE BASKING LIGHT MUST BE LOCATED OVER THE HOT SIDE OF THE ENCLOSURE, AND HIS BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM MUST BE LOCATED DIRECTLY UNDERNEATH BOTH OF THE LIGHTS, WHICH NEED TO BE RIGHT ALONGSIDE EACH OTHER, AND ALSO THAT THE BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE NEEDS TO ALWAYS BE UNDER 110 DEGREES AND ABOVE 98 DEGREES, AND THAT LITTLE TWEAKS CAN BE MADE BY MOVING THE BASKING LIGHT EITHER CLOSER OR FURTHER AWAY FROM THE BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM, AND LITTLE TWEAKS CAN ALSO BE MADE BY MOVING THE BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM AS CLOSE AS 3-4" TO THE UVB TUBE, BUT YOU CANNOT MOVE THE BASKING SPOT/PLATFORM FURTHER AWAY FROM THE UVB TUBE THAN 6".

*********He should not need any type of nighttime heat source, as they sleep most comfortably when the tank is pitch black with no lights on at all, and they also sleep most comfortably when the nighttime temperature of the enclosure drops considerably lower than the daytime temperatures inside the enclosure, just like the temperatures drop at nighttime in the Australian desert. AS LONG AS HIS ENCLOSURE TEMPERATURE DOES NOT DROP ~BELOW 65 DEGREES AT NIGHTTIME, HE NEEDS NO NIGHTTIME HEAT SOURCE AT ALL. Keep in mind that your home would have to be at 60 degrees or below at night for his enclosure to drop below 65 degrees, and most homes are kept at least at 60 degrees or higher at night. IF BY CHANCE YOU GUYS LIKE TO FREEZE YOURSELVES AT NIGHT AND YOU KEEP YOUR HOME BELOW 60 DEGREES AT NIGHT AND THIS DROPS HIS ENCLOSURE BELOW 65 DEGREES AT NIGHTTIME, YOU NEED TO BUY A CERAMIC HEAT EMITTER (CHE). A CHE screws into a regular lightbulb fixture but it doesn't emit any light at all, just heat, and you would only want a very, very, very low wattage CHE, because realize you're only wanting to up the nighttime temperature of his enclosure to around 65 degrees so he's comfortable. The bottom line is you most likely need no nighttime heat source for him at all.

As far as the liquid calcium goes, if you know how much he weighs in grams then you can follow the directions that are on the liquid calcium bottle, although it may be better to come back here after you buy it and then let us know what the directions say, so that we can make sure he'll be getting a proper dosage of calcium daily.

*****I hope this little guide I made up helps you a little to understand how to set up his lighting and temperatures, and why they need to be a certain way. As I stated, you'll most likely have to place him on his basking spot under the lights until he starts to recover, be sure that both of his lights are allowed to be on for at least 14 hours every single day, and that you place him on his basking spot immediately after he eats anything. And ask any questions you have at any time, we're all here to help....I'm sorry that your vet wasn't much help, but hopefully we can still get him back on the road to recovery...

Sorry that was so long, I just wanted to make sure I didn't forget anything important, as he really needs to get everything correct to start his recovery. I tend to start typing and then it gets out of control, lol....bad habit

 

[laurenB]

EllenD thank you so much for helping me potentially save his life. I should have come here first before going to that "vet"!!! Thank you for taking the time to give such detailed instructions. Wish I'd known thats all you need to claim exotic vet!! What a waste. Ok, so for his tank, I guess my details weren't exactly clear. I will try to post a pic of his current tank setup. Keep in mind his tank is now basically bare bc I threw away so much. I wish I hadn't thrown away his perfect basking piece of wood now. I was desperate and wanted to do absolutely everything she said. He is incapable of climbing anything to bask right now. So I've measured his floor temps since that is all he can do. I do have the zoo med probe thermometer. Tested a few days ago, leaving it on for a long time to get accurate readings. Testing again now, and ON THE FLOOR of the hot basking side is up to 105.6 now. Its been there for about 45 mins but I'll continue to monitor. The cool side of his tank was measured at 84 degrees, again, on the FLOOR. I can adjust this temp by turning the dial on this lamp, which I will do to lower it a few degrees. His hammock was not his basking spot. I just provided it for him bc he likes to sit in it on the cooler side. The described 7 inch distance is not to his hammock, its 7 inches above the floor of his tank. 6 inches distance to the top of his body if he is right underneath it. Before I bought his new 40 gallon tank, I'm guessing his setup was perfect. 10 gallon tank, he had the appropriate temps, UVB, everything. So no MBD in his younger years. I bought his new 40 tank, metal screen and UVB light all at same time. This was around a year ago, give or take couple months. Before he was all of sudden ill, his basking temps were probably SPOT on for his wood, since the floor is at 105 degrees. He would climb on it and open his little mouth. So cute. For now, he is confined to slithering around on his tank floor. I wouldn't want him up on anything anyways at this time bc he will just fall and possibly injure himself. So most everything is out. I do not have any colored lights at all. He has no light on at night. He's in my living room which is completely dark at night, and since the temps have begun to cool down outside, I turn my heater on to either 69 or 70 degrees. If its hot and I need the AC, I turn from 70-72 degrees. So that is his night time temps. All of his lights are situated along the rear length of his tank. With the white light that has the dial to adjust being on the left rear, and his hammock beneath it. To the right of it runs his UVB which is also to the rear, and next to that is his hot basking light. Temp still reading 105.6. His lights are on a timer, and I have set them to be on for 14 hours now. Do you really think my little guy still has a fighting chance? It is possible for him to have a full recovery? So far today, I have not soaked him, nor have I fed him. Since he is only just now receiving proper light, I didn't know if maybe the calcium and liquids from days prior can only now just start to be properly absorbed/digested?? The vet weighed him. Let me call and see.

 

[laurenB]

Ok, called the vet, he is 381 grams. She said per his weight, appx 7ml per feeding, 3 times per day. Have a pic of his tank and also the reptisun bulb I got from pet smart, trying to figure out how to post them here....

 

[laurenB]

Ok, I think I have them loaded here now...

 

[laurenB]

This is him being a happy guy earlier this summer

 

[EllenD]

Gotcha, I misunderstood what you were saying about the hammock then...okay, so if he can't safely get up onto anything, then I would just make one side of the tank the Hot Side, one side the Cool Side, and as long as the Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube is within 6" of the floor on the Hot Side where the temperature is at or over 100 degrees, and he has a place he can crawl to that is down at or below 80, then it looks good. The only suggestion I would make looking at the tank is if there is any way you can figure out to get the UVB tube away from the back of the tank and more in the center of it, that would make a HUGE difference, because right now half of the UVB light is being reflected right off the back glass and away from him. The UVB tube is low enough that if you can get it right in the center of the tank at the height it's already at, he'd be getting adequate UVB light anywhere in the tank that he goes because of the reflector, so even if he's not directly in the "Basking Temps" he'd still be getting adequate UVB, which is what he needs.

He looks very big, bright, and a very healthy weight, which you have in your favor for sure. Usually when a dragon is in a situation like this where they haven't gotten any UVB/UVA light for an entire year, their appetite has gone down so much and they've eaten so little that they are extremely skinny, dehydrated, and very weak, and that's what usually makes a recovery impossible. But he looks strong and healthy, and I can tell that he was well taken care of until that damn Zilla UVB fixture with the cover...ironically, I just had a conversation yesterday with AHBD about that cover on the Zilla Slimline fixtures, there are currently at least 2 other members posting on the forum right now that had the exact same thing happen to their dragons, unfortunately they were both very young babies that didn't have a chance to grow and develop like your guy did.

I actually had a good friend that went through this exact thing with a Zilla fixture (I didn't know him when he first bought the fixture, I met him when he started working with me) and one day he started telling me about his 2 year old dragon that went from healthy to not eating, losing weight, and having twitching and tremors. So I went over to his apartment after work and sure enough I spotted the Zilla UVB tube fixture with that cover on it. Not to mention that he had it on top of a mesh lid, so same situation, his dragon hadn't gotten any UVB or UVA light for a year because he had gone through 2 of the Zilla tubes. He thought he was doing the right thing because he replaced the tube every 6 months. I got angry about it because it wasn't the first time I'd seen this, so I got onto Zilla's website and emailed Customer Service, asking them why they put that cover on fixtures that come in a package with a T8 UVB tube specifically meant for "Desert Reptiles", and why they don't put a warning about removing the plastic cover if you're using it for a reptile, or about not setting it on top of a mesh lid (believe it or not, the Zilla Desert 50 T8 UVB tube puts out just as much UVB/UVA light as the Reptisun 10.0 T8 tube does when it's within 6" of the reptile and not obstructed by that damn plastic cover, lol). There reply to me was that they sell individual fixtures that are not a part of a package that includes a UVB tube, and since people may be using the fixtures to house a normal T12 light tube that gets extremely hot, they have to put the cover on them for safety reasons so that people don't get burnt or cause a fire, etc. Now that explanation would have made sense to me if they only included the cover on the fixtures that are sold by themselves and not include the cover on the fixtures that come with a UVB tube meant to emit UVB light to a reptile, but of course they are saving money by just plopping the cover on all of them...They don't care, no big surprise there...it sucks though, Zilla calls themselves a "Reptile Company", yet they sell UVB lights that literally kill and permanently disable reptiles...

Anyway, you're not alone in this, trust me, and yes I'm sure he has a chance, especially now since I've seen him. You gotta understand that a desert reptile that needs to get 13 to 14 hours of strong UVB and UVA light every single day just to be able to absorb any nutrition from their food really must have a lot of daily UVB light. We get a lot of people that come on here asking why their dragons are suddenly sick, usually they are babies or juveniles that the person got as a month old baby, and it's now around 5 or 6 months old and is suddenly sleeping all the time, not eating, eyes are sinking in, and usually the first real sign of MBD is that little twitches start happening in their tails and their toes, then they stop being able to judge distances when trying to grab a live insect to eat, and so on. So when we tell them that they've been using a UVB light that is for a tropical reptile, or that their compact UVB bulb is 20" away from their dragon, or they haven't been using any UVB light at all (usually that's either because they bought a basking bulb that said "UVA" on the box, or because either they or their parents decided that dragons don't need a UVB light at all and it's just a scheme to get them to spend more money), they don't believe that the lack of UVB light would ever be able to cause such illness or twitching, tremors, seizures, sometimes it's really hard to convince them, which is frustrating...but not as frustrating as this Zilla thing, this is a totally preventable situation that happens all the time at no fault of the dragon owner...

The biggest thing now is to make sure his lights are on for at least 13 to 14 hours a day, that he's getting the dose of liquid calcium every day, and that you're syringe feeding him every day if he's not willing to eat on his own. But like I said, he's a good weight, he's nice and big and bright looking, and there is no doubt that this is MBD based on his symptoms and the lack of any UVB for a year. I cannot believe that the vet ignored what you told her about the UVB tube, and just went right to Adenovirus, which by the way doesn't make any sense at all, I think Tracie already mentioned this, she took the words right out of my mouth when she wrote it, and that's that Adenovirus would have shown up long ago, it has to come from a source and typically they have it from the time they are still with their breeders or at the pet shop. At his age, even if that's what killed your other dragon, it would have been evident by now. And that's not mentioning that we know he hasn't had any UVB light for a year and his symptoms are classic MBD symptoms. I think if you can keep getting nutrition in him daily he should start showing improvement pretty directly. It can be a slow process, but you do see significant improvement quickly once they are under adequate UVB and getting liquid calcium.

Keep us posted daily, ask any questions you many have, feel free to PM me any time. I have a rescue boy that is now a year and 3 months old, I took him in at 8 months old, and he went the first 8 months of his life without any UVB at all...he will always have some permanent disabilities, like his front legs are always folded together and he walks a little bit like he's drunk, but he's improved 500% since I brought him home and got him under proper lighting, in proper temps, and got calcium and a multivitamin in him daily. So yes, I think your guy is going to be okay, it's just going to take some time and some patience. Just forget the amount of doubt and the complete hopelessness that damn vet gave you, simply by looking at him. That's the worst thing she did, she took a look at him, she knew she didn't know what was going on, so she just went to "It's probably adenovirus and isn't curable", and took your hope away and didn't give him a fair chance. That's the worst thing she did...

 

[laurenB]

You have given me so much hope that I teared up. I love my little guy. I knew I loved him, I even have a silly little way of talking to him, lol. But I didn't realize just HOW MUCH I love him! I will center his light and scooch it an inch or two closer to his warm spot as you suggested. I think him being on his beardie bites did the trick, making him so big and strong and healthy. They are so nutritious and provide so much of his moisture. I can't thank you enough. I will definitely keep you and this post updated because it may help someone else in the future with these same issues. I was, and am, the same as you.... infuriated by the manufacturer selling a product that is set up to sicken and kill your pet. I searched for this same product online but couldn't find it. It doesn't have a name brand on the fixture itself but my photographic memory of the box was surely a Zilla. It had the reptile on it. It's not at Petsmart, but I did buy it from PetCo and I intend to see if they still sell it in store. If you got nowhere with Zilla about it, I will then at least contact Petco about selling a product like this!! And I'm still going to email Zilla as well, once I can confirm this fixture is from them. Absolutely RIDICULOUS.

Anyway, his liquid calcium will be here by this evening when my gf gets home. Going to give it to him right away. I did get a bit of liquid in him earlier as well. He never did the toe or tail twitching. For him, the first sign I saw was the poor judgement and confusion on distance. If the toe twitching ever happened, its possible I just never observed it. When I called my vet, she helped me get the info I needed and showed concern and care, I just guess she is not qualified enough and gave poor advice. If he recovers I am going to tell her about this thread and what happened so she doesn't give that bad advice again. I am so happy I came on here, and again, thank you THANK YOU.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How is Mr. Lizard doing today?
You have a good handle on things now. Once you can get the UVB light mounted
correctly that will help immensely! Be sure to mount it directly overhead so that
the UVB will refract directly downward onto her.
As stated, they do take awhile to recover from calcium issues.
With regards to Adeno testing, once the sample is received at the lab they run the
test sample that same day & send out results. It is all very fast & convenient, too.
He looks good in the picture you posted.
It is frustrating that companies have no standards when it comes to putting out all
of these reptile products. When it comes to vets, reptiles usually seem to be on the
low end of the totem pole. Not all vets want to do extra leg work to try & figure out
what could be going on so they just brush them off.
I'm glad that you found us here, we will try to help as much as we can. Sorry you no
longer have the wood pieces, that's too bad!
Dragons get into your heart so quickly that it takes you by surprise. I am glad he is
a part of your life, he's lucky.

Let us know how things are going.

Tracie

 

[kingofnobbys]

Ok, called the vet, he is 381 grams. She said per his weight, appx 7ml per feeding, 3 times per day. Have a pic of his tank and also the reptisun bulb I got from pet smart, trying to figure out how to post them here....

See this viewtopic.php?f=45&t=232687 for an adult lizard, 3 to 8 ml / 100g body weight.

So 11.4ml - 30.5ml per day. So he's being concervative with the feeding with 7ml 3x per day.

I see there is a mesh hammock in there, I suggest removing it, it's a serious nail snag risk, just yesterday someone posted here about their dragon who had seriously injured it's toe nail and toe when snagged on a mesh hammock.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Okay, please do not euthanize him based on what that vet told you, she was not a reptile vet and unfortunately it's quite obvious she doesn't know what she's talking about at all, as Knobbys said, "She put this in the too hard to bother with" basket and that was it...

Very, very, very likely MBD and possibly a combo of Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) deficiency. He's not ever had adequate UVB light (Zilla tube/fixture I'm assuming with the plastic cover), the he's never manufactured any vitamin D3 on his own, this he's not absorbed any Calcium. THE ONLY WAY A VET CAN DIAGNOSE MBD IS BY X-RAY OR BLOOD WORK, NOT JUST BY LOOKING AT HIM, ABD HIS HISTORY SHOULD HAVE MADE IT QUITE OBVIOUS TO HER.

You were given very bad advice and false info by a vet who should have just said "I'm not a reptile specialist". I'm betting had she done a regular, flat x-ray his bone density would be horrible.

That being said, you cannot expect him to get better overnight from MBD, but especially not if you have a Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube on top of the mesh and 15 inches away, he's still not gotten any UVB light, nor any liquid Calcium, which you can actually buy at Petco/PetSmart, and he'll absorb it much more quickly and readily, as long as he's getting adequate UVB light.

Poke 4 holes in the mesh and then use those long, plastic Zip ties to attach the entire fixture to the underside of the mesh. I don't know why the vet made you get rid of all his wood/rocks, but he'll need a Basking platform that will get his Basking Spot within 6" of the unobstructed UVB tube. And make sure that the bright white basking bulb is right alongside the UVB tube, and both are directly over the basking platform, inside the Hot Side of the enclosure. Be sure both lights are on for no less than 14 hours a day. And try to get him some liquid Calcium, in the meantime dust all his bugs in Calcium powder with vitamin D3 after you get the UVB tube mounted correctly. A T8 strength UVB tube does not penetrate mesh well enough to reach your beardie, and even without the mesh the UVB light needs to be at least within 6" to give him adequate UVB light.

I know you're frustrated and concerned, but give him a few days under a properly mounted UVB tube that is within a distance that it will reach him, and while dusting the insects he'll eat in the Calcium. Do this before you make any rash decisions based on what an unqualified vet told you, because I'd bet my life he has severe MBD. He'd have to without any UVB light for what, years? Months?

Thank you thank you thank you for this advice. I took some string and hung his UVB inside the cage. It's about 7 inches from light to the top of his body. Going get some liquid calcium today. He does not respond to crickets or anything I offer him on his own. I have to force feed him very slowly with syringe until he laps it up from me. The vet did not suggest I euthanize, I was feeling guilty that he was suffering and I was not having any improvement. As for his UVB, I SPECIFICALLY TOLD HER THAT ID LEARNED THAT PLASTIC COMPLETELY BLOCKS OUT UVB AND THAT THIS FIXTURE HAD BEEN IN PLACE FOR A YEAR. I was very very angry and frustrated that I'd had to learn this online and that the product didn't give some type of obvious indication to remove it. That for a year he'd had virtually no UVB. She seemed to think he was still getting "some UVB" from this setup and not ZERO. She also told me to skip the pedialyte and to give just water but I've read repeatedly that Pedialyte is very good for them when dehydrated. She told me to get rid of any porous material that couldn't properly be disinfected. This is why I am hesitant to go to vets period. If I make the call to go and spend a big chunk of money that I don't really have and I STILL can't rely on the advice being given, what's the point? There is FAR too much misinformation out there for beardies and I was sadly very uneducated that I was doing things wrong. As far as basking rock, he has a hammock on his cool side. But he is not mentally aware enough to know that anything is in his presence. He responds to touch only. And not favorably. The only time I handle is for a soak and feeding. For his screen, it is not the "fine mesh" screen that I had on his smaller tank. This is a coated metal screen with much wider openings, so while his UVB was still 15 inches above him I am hoping he has gotten some rays through this type of metal screening. Again, thank you so much for your help. I won't euthanize him now that I have gotten some hopeful responses. THANK YOU!!!!!! I am going to get some liquid calcium, mix in with pedialyte and some smashed up beardie bites bc they are very nutritious and he just seems to love the flavor. Is it possible to overload him with calcium at this point? How am I to know how much is too much? Vet told me for his weight about 7 cc's of liquid a day. I'll have to call her and confirm that number

We can all relate to the issues you have had with your vet.
Very few vets are competent with reptile health, this is why it's best to find a REPTILE/HERP VET as opposed to an EXOTICS VET or a general vet. Even then it's a bit of lucky dip and vets are very hit and miss.
This is where places like this come into their own, the chances are someone here will know of a very good vet who is conveniently close to where you are and can recommend their vet.

Regarding UV in the original set up
You mentioned a 10% tube and a fine wire mesh and a distance of 15inches.
Referring to this viewtopic.php?f=34&t=235611
are few back of the postage stamp calc reveal :
if a 10% UVB T8 tube in a reflector hood
(10/12) x (1-0.38) x 45 = 23 microW UVB / sq.cm ,
and if no reflector ==> 0.5 x 23 = 11.5 microW UVB / sq.cm


if a 10% UVB T5HO tube in a reflector hood
(10/12) x (1-0.38) x 110 = 57 microW UVB / sq.cm
and if no reflector ==> 28 microW UVB / sq.cm

which is way too low.

The aim is 180-200 microW UVB/ sq.cm at the basking spot and 100 microW UVB / sq.cm elsewhere.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Gotcha, I misunderstood what you were saying about the hammock then...okay, so if he can't safely get up onto anything, then I would just make one side of the tank the Hot Side, one side the Cool Side, and as long as the Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube is within 6" of the floor on the Hot Side where the temperature is at or over 100 degrees, and he has a place he can crawl to that is down at or below 80, then it looks good. The only suggestion I would make looking at the tank is if there is any way you can figure out to get the UVB tube away from the back of the tank and more in the center of it, that would make a HUGE difference, because right now half of the UVB light is being reflected right off the back glass and away from him. The UVB tube is low enough that if you can get it right in the center of the tank at the height it's already at, he'd be getting adequate UVB light anywhere in the tank that he goes because of the reflector, so even if he's not directly in the "Basking Temps" he'd still be getting adequate UVB, which is what he needs.

He looks very big, bright, and a very healthy weight, which you have in your favor for sure. Usually when a dragon is in a situation like this where they haven't gotten any UVB/UVA light for an entire year, their appetite has gone down so much and they've eaten so little that they are extremely skinny, dehydrated, and very weak, and that's what usually makes a recovery impossible. But he looks strong and healthy, and I can tell that he was well taken care of until that damn Zilla UVB fixture with the cover...ironically, I just had a conversation yesterday with AHBD about that cover on the Zilla Slimline fixtures, there are currently at least 2 other members posting on the forum right now that had the exact same thing happen to their dragons, unfortunately they were both very young babies that didn't have a chance to grow and develop like your guy did.

I actually had a good friend that went through this exact thing with a Zilla fixture (I didn't know him when he first bought the fixture, I met him when he started working with me) and one day he started telling me about his 2 year old dragon that went from healthy to not eating, losing weight, and having twitching and tremors. So I went over to his apartment after work and sure enough I spotted the Zilla UVB tube fixture with that cover on it. Not to mention that he had it on top of a mesh lid, so same situation, his dragon hadn't gotten any UVB or UVA light for a year because he had gone through 2 of the Zilla tubes. He thought he was doing the right thing because he replaced the tube every 6 months. I got angry about it because it wasn't the first time I'd seen this, so I got onto Zilla's website and emailed Customer Service, asking them why they put that cover on fixtures that come in a package with a T8 UVB tube specifically meant for "Desert Reptiles", and why they don't put a warning about removing the plastic cover if you're using it for a reptile, or about not setting it on top of a mesh lid (believe it or not, the Zilla Desert 50 T8 UVB tube puts out just as much UVB/UVA light as the Reptisun 10.0 T8 tube does when it's within 6" of the reptile and not obstructed by that damn plastic cover, lol). There reply to me was that they sell individual fixtures that are not a part of a package that includes a UVB tube, and since people may be using the fixtures to house a normal T12 light tube that gets extremely hot, they have to put the cover on them for safety reasons so that people don't get burnt or cause a fire, etc. Now that explanation would have made sense to me if they only included the cover on the fixtures that are sold by themselves and not include the cover on the fixtures that come with a UVB tube meant to emit UVB light to a reptile, but of course they are saving money by just plopping the cover on all of them...They don't care, no big surprise there...it sucks though, Zilla calls themselves a "Reptile Company", yet they sell UVB lights that literally kill and permanently disable reptiles...

>>>> OMG .... so they simply sell essentially a domestic fluorescent fitting and add the cheap Chinese knockoffs (T8 and T5HO and compact UVB lights) they flog. Even more reason to never buy anything labeled Zilla.

Anyway, you're not alone in this, trust me, and yes I'm sure he has a chance, especially now since I've seen him. You gotta understand that a desert reptile that needs to get 13 to 14 hours of strong UVB and UVA light every single day just to be able to absorb any nutrition from their food really must have a lot of daily UVB light. We get a lot of people that come on here asking why their dragons are suddenly sick, usually they are babies or juveniles that the person got as a month old baby, and it's now around 5 or 6 months old and is suddenly sleeping all the time, not eating, eyes are sinking in, and usually the first real sign of MBD is that little twitches start happening in their tails and their toes, then they stop being able to judge distances when trying to grab a live insect to eat, and so on. So when we tell them that they've been using a UVB light that is for a tropical reptile, or that their compact UVB bulb is 20" away from their dragon, or they haven't been using any UVB light at all (usually that's either because they bought a basking bulb that said "UVA" on the box, or because either they or their parents decided that dragons don't need a UVB light at all and it's just a scheme to get them to spend more money), they don't believe that the lack of UVB light would ever be able to cause such illness or twitching, tremors, seizures, sometimes it's really hard to convince them, which is frustrating...but not as frustrating as this Zilla thing, this is a totally preventable situation that happens all the time at no fault of the dragon owner...

The biggest thing now is to make sure his lights are on for at least 13 to 14 hours a day, that he's getting the dose of liquid calcium every day, and that you're syringe feeding him every day if he's not willing to eat on his own. But like I said, he's a good weight, he's nice and big and bright looking, and there is no doubt that this is MBD based on his symptoms and the lack of any UVB for a year. I cannot believe that the vet ignored what you told her about the UVB tube, and just went right to Adenovirus, which by the way doesn't make any sense at all, I think Tracie already mentioned this, she took the words right out of my mouth when she wrote it, and that's that Adenovirus would have shown up long ago, it has to come from a source and typically they have it from the time they are still with their breeders or at the pet shop. At his age, even if that's what killed your other dragon, it would have been evident by now. And that's not mentioning that we know he hasn't had any UVB light for a year and his symptoms are classic MBD symptoms. I think if you can keep getting nutrition in him daily he should start showing improvement pretty directly. It can be a slow process, but you do see significant improvement quickly once they are under adequate UVB and getting liquid calcium.

Keep us posted daily, ask any questions you many have, feel free to PM me any time. I have a rescue boy that is now a year and 3 months old, I took him in at 8 months old, and he went the first 8 months of his life without any UVB at all...he will always have some permanent disabilities, like his front legs are always folded together and he walks a little bit like he's drunk, but he's improved 500% since I brought him home and got him under proper lighting, in proper temps, and got calcium and a multivitamin in him daily. So yes, I think your guy is going to be okay, it's just going to take some time and some patience. Just forget the amount of doubt and the complete hopelessness that damn vet gave you, simply by looking at him. That's the worst thing she did, she took a look at him, she knew she didn't know what was going on, so she just went to "It's probably adenovirus and isn't curable", and took your hope away and didn't give him a fair chance. That's the worst thing she did...

 

[kingofnobbys]

Are you still giving him Bites ?

If they are these things
https://www.petmountain.com/product/bearded-dragon-food/11442-509443/nature-zone-bites-for-bearded-dragons.html
they are 96% moisture so worthless nutritionally to your dragon, I suggest getting Repashi GrubPie
https://www.store.repashy.com/by-product-name-en/grub-pie-reptile-en/
and making up a moist paste to give by syringe to him , these are much more nutritious and based on BSF lavae who are naturally rich in calcium.

 

[laurenB]

Hello all, Mr. Lizard is doing mostly the same, but I have noticed him seeming marginally more active mentally. For example when I approach his tank he seems to notice and respond with a head move or eye movement. But not directly at me. Today he had a bowel movement and I'll post a pic of it. Its watery, but he has been on a mostly liquid diet for a week now. When he was on his hot side of tank, his belly was resting on a rock, and I saw that his beard was out and his mouth was open. I got worried and went over to his tank, he was still breathing normally and his mouth slowly closed back, so idk if he was cooling himself or if it was agitation. Nothing else to report on him. I did just give him a quick soak for about 10 minutes. He really hates them right now. So not sure how beneficial it is to him to soak every single day like the vet said? She said she wanted to encourage a shed since he hasn't in months. As for the bites, that is what I feed him. My label says 85% moisture and the ingredients are listed and there is all kinds of good stuff. This has been a staple to his diet for years so I don't think he would have fared so well at all over time if it was worthless nutritionally.