Microvesicular Steatosis, Portal Hypertension and Edema

[Menolly07]

My bearded dragon, Odahviing, had a vet appointment yesterday. Her vet appointment wasn't horrible, but we did get some less than desirable news. The vet tapped her abdomen, the best way to look for fluid. He came back with 10 CCs of very bright, yellow fluid. The colour and amount are both signs of liver problems. In the case of a bearded dragon it's nearly exclusively fatty liver disease.

The prognosis is good because she was showing absolutely no signs of liver failure; her appetite is fine, no lethargy, bright eyes. He has prescribed that she be given 175 mg of L-Carnitine a day. It's known to improve liver function and detoxify. It's very effective with fatty liver disease, so I got her a bottle of liquid from GNC. 175 mg = 2.6 ml. I may have caught it early enough to be able to treat and have it not affect her life expectancy negatively.

This all sprang up because a fellow Redditor lost her beardie boy to fatty liver disease. He was fat like Odahviing. However, Odahviing has not been losing weight, despite her diet. She's up to 689 grams, which set off all sorts of alarm bells. I was heavily prodded by the other Redditor's experience to have her evaluated. It's horrible that she lost her Desmond, but it may have saved my Odahviing's life.

I am administering milk thistle in addition to the L-Carnitine. I plan to give serrepatase as well, placing an order. Aside from cutting the fattier insects from her diet and offering only dubia and silkworms are there any other suggestions for improving her condition?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is excellent, I highly recommend the L-carnitine also. While it has not been proven due to little use in bearded dragons it does help mobilize & burn fat. It is worth giving a try.
The milk thistle is great for liver cleansing. What type of serrapeptase are you going to get?
You could also consider colloidal silver too, which helps with overall functioning of the immune system.

I would keep the insects to maybe 30 per week & focus on greens & greens slurries, too.
It sounds like you have caught it early so that is great news. She is alert & eating well right now?
If you make changes now her liver should be able to regenerate, nicely if it isn't damaged very much.

Do you have pictures of her?

Tracie

 

[Menolly07]

Odahviing is very alert and has been eating well since before her diagnosis. It's why I'm so thankful for Desmond. Honestly, she shows zero symptomatology. The vet even said, when he felt her tummy, it didn't feel like fluid. As he tapped and drew out the liquid I watched his face turn to absolute surprise. I had no reason to suspect except that she wasn't losing weight on a diet but was gaining and had the same droopy belly as Desmond had!

I ordered this serrepatase from BD.co http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.p...lter_name=Serrapeptase+Liquid+&product_id=399

I'll see if I can add on colloidal silver as they've not shipped yet.

Here's my baby girl. She's 18.75" and is currently 680 grams. She lost 17 grams today from a massive poo she took. Soft brumation on top of all this had her holding on. A little mineral oil and we were good to go. I also did a fecal on it because it stunk SO badly, but it was clean. I chalked it up to it being five days since her last poop. I was giving her daily baths. She just wouldn't move her bowels, so we did mineral oil today.

Daily it's the milk thistle and L-Carnitine. She also receives liquid vitamins, B12, calcium with magnesium and BeneBac powder on a schedule. All are measured specifically to her weight and administered to her orally. I like to know how much they're taking in, her and her baby beardie sister. I do still want to see about having the atadenovirus tested for. She's from PetSmart which means mass market breeding. I don't want an undiagnosed health condition adding to the liver issues. Also, I've some silkworm eggs on order from Mullberry Farms. They'd no live stock at my time of ordering, so I got the eggs to hatch. High protein, super low fat = exactly the right feeder for her. I have a dubia colony as well.

You can see how her tummy droops.

She's my big, cuddly girl. She climbed into my lap to snuggle, and you can see her size in proportion to my arm. I'm about 5'8" tall.

Bonus, just because....

 

[Derobmi]

Menolly07,

You don't know how much it means to me that you keep mentioning Desmond. I don't want to clutter your post, but I have to say that what I desired most for Desmond's legacy is that his life and death could help others and that is what you are doing. I am so grateful. :')

Thank you!

 

[Menolly07]

Derobmi, I hate that you lost him, but I am tremendously thankful that it has helped my girl. Seriously, I cannot articulate enough how unlikely I would have been to find it so early if I hadn't been as aware as I am. That awareness is due to Desmond's case. I am so sad for your loss. I would be devastated to lose Odahviing. I was in tears when they drew that fluid. It's awfully bittersweet.
<3

 

[Drache613]

Hello!

She sure does have a little belly on her. She is beautiful & has great colors, too.
Your supplement schedule is perfectly fine & should help her out tremendously.
How long has she been on a diet, per say?
What prompted you to take her into the vets this time?

Dubias & silkworms are perfect for her. If you need to get her tested for adeno, just let me know.
I hope she is doing well & keep us posted on her.

Tracie

 

[Menolly07]

Tracie, Derobmi, above, had a darling beardie boy Desmond. She had some trouble with him eating etc, but he was a fat boy, like my Odahviing. I had Odahviing on a diet for about six or eight months, restricting her to dubia in small amounts and lots of greens. She still was not losing weight. She's very fat, and I was concerned about the strain on her organs.

Sadly, Desmond began to have more serious issues which prompted bloodwork and exploratory surgery. They removed a massive amount of fluid and found his organs were shutting/shut down. It makes me tear up just writing about it because I know Derobmi did everything right by Desmond. Desmond went home post surgery for palliative care. He had the same droopy belly as my girl (and also atadenovirus sufferers which is why I DEFINITELY want to get Odahviing tested).

With her lack of weight loss and Derobmi's experience with Desmond and also additional prompting from another Redditor I made an appointment for Odahviing. That brings us to now.

Derobmi and I have actually talked about fat vs fluid. We were trying to figure out if belly shape is different. The way Odahviing and Desmond have droopy tummies, like water balloons almost, vs an actually just fat dragon was something we were discussing, wondering if there's a difference.

I will definitely keep updating about Odahviing. I've been bad about the photo thread. So busy! Two beardies, a chameleon, a corn snake and five cats then a 4 year old nephew and his six month old baby brother! So. Busy.

 

[Menolly07]

Holy crap! Or evil crap that stinks from the depth of MY GOD!

Even at her worst with pinworms Odahviing never stank like this!! She's pooped twice in the last week. The first was watery and on the floor. It was awful in stench.

Today she pooped in the bath MIGHTILY. A cloud of yellow came with floaty bits of collard green, and it SMELLED. She pooped a lot out in term of volume. I tried calling the Doc, but they're closed on the weekend. I don't know any emergency vets that deal with herps. It's a source of annoyance for me.

I'm wondering if this is her actually eliminating the hepatic fluid/fat in her stool? That's the sort of yellow it was. Many.. It was vile bile.

 

[Derobmi]

Hey Menolly,

You know, when Tracie had me giving Desmond the l-carnitine, we were doing just a sprinkle. The dosage you are giving is significantly more than what I was giving. Maybe that's a good thing, but I looked up side effects in humans and diarrhea was a side effect listed. Also on some other sites, a fishy smell. Weird. I wonder if there is a connection? Which liquid l-carnitine did you get? I looked at GNC's site and there are several available.

I hope she feels better.

Mary

 

[Menolly07]

Mary,

That would make a lot of sense. I did see the side effects for humans but wasn't 100% sure it would be the same for herps. Fishy is definitely the right word.

I got this kind of L-Carnitine. It's definitely a LOT for such a little thing. I'm doing 0.5 ml of Milk Thistle as well. I feel like she'd crash if she were less healthy.

Man.. When she poops. It's... Wow. Really. WOW........
Jane

 

[Derobmi]

Hey Chitter,

I looked at the label (pdf warning) for that carnitine and there is stevia in it. From this point on, this is all conjecture. Stevia can cause issues in humans who are allergic to "Allergy to ragweed and related plants: Stevia might cause an allergic reaction in people who are sensitive to the Asteraceae/Compositae family of plants. This family includes ragweed, chrysanthemums, marigolds, daisies, and many other plants." source. Chrysanthemums are listed as toxic on anapsid here. I have no idea if that could cause an issue in a bearded dragon, but it is interesting to me. It is a really small amount in the dose you are giving her, so I just don't know. Additionally, I see that Tracie said your supplements were fine but I also notice that the carnitine dosage is so very much higher than what she had recommended to me that I think you might want to PM her and verify that she noticed the dosage in your OP and you could ask her about the stevia, too.

That's all I have for you. Just a bunch of assumptions. Hopefully someone who knows more will notice the thread since we've bumped it up quite nicely.

Give Odahviing a kiss for me in the morning and tell her she's just a sweet baby and then pet her on the head until she closes her eyes.

Mary

 

[Menolly07]

Oh! I didn't even think to look for anything like stevia. I was so fixated on getting it and worried over her that it didn't even occur to me. Good eye! I know that marigolds and daisies aren't a problem. With the chrysanthemums it looks like it's that they have a pesticide taken from that flower specifically. However, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and find something that I'm certain is ok.

To the dosage, it's vet prescribed in that amount.

I'll definitely give her cuddles for you. She fell asleep in my sweatshirt pouch tonight, you know the pocket up front for hands? I tucked her into it to get up, and she snuggled in and shut her eyes. Its like a hammock. Little love! :love10:

Thank you for all the help. Odahviing and I appreciate it more than I could say!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

The l-carnitine in higher doses could cause looser stools. It was greenish? Does the l-carnitine have stevia in it? What is the strength of the l-carnitine & how much are you giving her?
It could also be the liver cleaning itself out also, which does happen too with the help of the supplements.
How is she doing today?

Anytime you start a new supplement, it is good to go on the lower end. I have never used stevia with our dragons. It is all natural so I would not think a little would hurt, but she may be sensitive to it. You could look for some powder instead as that shouldn't have anything in it except for the l-carnitine.

Keep us posted on her.

Tracie

 

[Menolly07]

Tracie, The vet has her on 175 mg of L-Carnitine per day. Her poop was very yellow in the batg, actually. It even looks like a more watered down version of the hepatic fluid. It's loose with bits of Collard green. Plenty of urate that's still white.

Basically, when she went in the tub it was like a cloudy yellow bunch of fluid came out with lots of bits of digested veggie. The urate was present and didn't fall apart.

When she went outside the tub a few days ago there was a large puddle and her stool was formed but loose.

Otherwise she's doing fine. I've increased her BeneBac amounts.

 

[Menolly07]

I ended up taking Odahviing to the vet again today. The very loose stool with a lot of fluid had me mildly concerned. I say mild because I just wanted to confirm with the vet that it was less a cause for concern. Odahviing very stinkily gave me a new poop sample this afternoon. I ended up mopping most of it up with a paper towel and enclosing it with the poo.

When she was weighed she was down nearly 20 grams of fluid weight! From 682 - 666 grams! The vet is not worried about such a dramatic weightloss in a week because it is all fluid. He also agreed, upon seeing her sample, that it's her actually ELIMINATING fluid!

I have been giving her 0.5 ML of Milk Thistle and have serrepatase incoming, as well as colloidal silver. The vet felt that all of these nonpharmaceuticals are worth trying. He told me that he hadn't any concrete experience with them but that a lot of people were going to nonpharmaceutical means for treatment of things like the liver especially. His outlook was that they can only help or do nothing since they won't hurt. And if I'm willing, well, go for it.

Due to his lack of experience with the serrepatase and colloidal silver I am, however, at a loss for dosing amounts. Thoughts?