Mealworms

[ataraxia]

However, it is not a "myth" as you state as far as a healthy dragon not getting impacted from mealworms. If too many are eaten, they can throw up or become impacted, plus, they have more shell than meat & really are not all that healthy. Feeding too much fat at young ages sets them up for storing too much fat in their liver & can contribute to fatty liver disease early on. I think the type & amount of fatty feeders being used now may be one thing that is causing early deaths in dragons. There have been an unusual number of liver issues in the last several years which is alarming.

When they are growing, it is best to use leaner sources of protein to allow the liver not to have to break down too much fat early on.

Tracie

also go to beautifuldragons.com for a good source of what to give. your choice to give mealworms but remember they are known to cause impaction in beardies under 1 yr of age.

Please someone give me link to legitimate actual findings of meal worm impaction in bearded dragons. NOT what someone may have thought/thinks meal worms were the cause and has no real means of testing this.

I have been feeding my dragons and other reptiles meal worms as a part of a diversified feeding regiment for years. I have NEVER had any impaction problems......EVER.

The thing that bothers me is that people read something and believe it. A 10 year old could have written an article on it and now has thousands of followers.

Now if you cant provide actual articles from credible sources, why continue giving false information.

 

[Beardednoob]

.

 

[applesaging]

presonally, i would never feed my beardie something high in fat, low on protein/nutrients, and has a high chitin content.

 

[ataraxia]

You can not determine the nutritional value based off of one website. Every website will show something different. It is all going to be determined by what you feed them. Your feeders are only as good as the food you give them. I can provide more sites to show they will all vary.

http://www.sialis.org/raisingmealworms.htm

http://www.exoticnutrition.com/limein.html

http://www.angelfire.com/tx/facehugger/insect.html

http://www.grubco.com/nutritional_information.cfm

back to topic..i want to see the link to the "myth" where they impact bearded dragons.

 

[Claudiusx]

I am pretty sure no one will be able to give you a link to a scientific study done on it.

The fact of the matter is, mealworms are a god awful feeder, and there are much healthier ones out there.

You don't need a scientific study done to know that a hard shell is harder to digest than a soft shell. And too much hard shell at once can cause a blockage.

In this hobby, no one is an expert, we all learn from eachothers experience, and we figure out what is truthful, and what is not.
In this case, it seems pretty obvious that a hard shelled insect can cause impaction if given in too high a quantity.

Experience trumps theory 100% of the time.

-Brandon

 

[Claudiusx]

Edited above post, sounded kind of like a jerk, which wasn't my intentions lol! :mrgreen:

(wow I hope I still don't sound like a jerk haha)

-Brandon

 

[Drache613]

I would appreciate you not using a quote from me to start a thread solely to provoke an argument. If you would like to start a civil discussion with respect to mealworms, then that is fine but to insinuate that your opinion is the only one that stands is not right, either. This does not need to turn into an argument. This is a sensitive discussion with the majority of people leaning one way of the spectrum. I have found that there are always exceptions, however my information pertaining to fatty foods stands.
Unfortunately, veterinary science does not find the time to do frivolous studies on insects they are too busy trying to find time to do studies on animals. All we have to go on are case studies from keepers & other miscellaneous information from numerous sources.

Thank you.
Tracie

 

[ataraxia]

Brandon - i didnt take you as an a$$

Well if we go off of experience. I would think over the last 12 years i would have had a problem if this was true. Heres a list of some of the animals i breed and keep.

Feeders: Dubia, Discoides, Rusty reds, Crickets, Mealworms, F/T Pinkies, Silk worms and Horn worms.
Italian Leather Back Beards 1.1
Silks back Beard 0.1
American Leather Back Beards 1.0
Super Red Beards1.0
Red Beard 0.1
Normal Beards 1.1
Translucent Beards 2.1
Panther chameleons 1.2
Jacksons chameleons 1.1
Veileds chameleons 2.2
High casque chameleons 1.1
Gonocephalus Chamaeleontinus 1.0

I have raised these guys on a meal worm diet only.
Leopard geckos 2.8

These guys mainly eat clarks, repashy, total bites, occassionaly baby food and fresh fruit. They also get meal worms from time to time.
Isle E Leachianus 0.1
Gargoyle 0.1
Halmahera Geckos 1.1

This thread is to hopefully bring to light some people just follow what they read or what other misinformed people suggest. If this were true some veterinarian or research team would have had positive findings if this were the case. Case point (as far as my extent of researching the subject is concerned) in the past 20 years dragons have been in the states, not one case has been found in a healthy animal. With all the information the internet has. Dont you think one researcher would have found this to be true?


Tracie - This thread was started because you had asked not to further the discussion on a particular thread. This thread is to debate this subject not to argue in a rude manor.

 

[Beardednoob]

not one case has been found in a healthy animal

Bearded dragons are highest sold lizard in the United States. The information in which people use to keep their dragons is not always a healthy option. Pet shop and the more likely pet chains hand over the advice that best suits their situation, what UV lights do they carry, what feeders do they sell etc.. To them it is a sale nothing more. They give falsely lead information regarding feeding. When I brought home my first bearded dragon, I was told 6-12 crickets a day and you can feed a few mealworms here and there. I was recommended their best light for UV and headed home with a Zilla starter kit, Zilla slimline and 24 crickets. Des (my first dragon) took literally a week to finish the crickets. Then the next time I fed him he wouldn't eat but maybe 1-2, same with the next. I started to worry (as I have a heart). I was told first thing to switch out the light. So I did in about the matter of 2 hours, he picked up and was eating more. I had to learn quickly that I was doing things wrong. If I had not come to this forum I wouldn't have guess different of the UV light, gauge style thermometer giving false readings, red night light etc.. if I would have picked up mealworms during this time I may have lost my first dragon. He wasn't healthy, there was no way.

Being someone who claims 12 years of experience and hundreds of reptiles (which I have seen a few, how is the Zoo?). You have an extent of information that exceeds the average pet owner. If we seriously think about it go to craigslist and browse, these dragons are not healthy. People who often find themselves on this forum are not dealing with a healthy dragon (I wasn't when I first got here). Peoples perspective rationalize information, word of mouth twists facts. Someone new to the forum, more so new to bearded dragons says they are feeding mealworms, while they are having health issues. What do you say, that mealworms are okay from time to time or not to feed them? Do you tell the person that their dragon is unhealthy and it is the fault of the pet stores or them? In other words do you allow someone who is seeking health advice to continue thinking mealworms are an acceptable feeder?

This topic is like talking about sand, calci and vita sand more specifically. Two commonly seen substrates to be recommended by major pet store chains. Where does the pet store sit on this subject? I have never asked personally. My guess would be that the sand is not washable, there for needs to be replaced at a faster pace then other substrates. They tell you the sand is fully digestible. This however unlike current postings on mealworms is widely known and accepted. But, why? When looking this information up on the net you are yielded with about 2-4 pictures. This forum has 1 picture. Does this 1 particular picture do the trick in making a false belief? I can alter pictures too, perhaps someone made it, told a story and put everyone a ruse ride. Where is your standing on calci and vita sand?

In conclusion to my thought process and my beliefs on bearded dragons and mealworms. The information is there, it is more widely spread on the internet. It is there for a reason. What if everyone believes again they are an acceptable feeder and we bring back something that was proven years before either of us started raising bearded dragons. What if mealworm impaction was a huge thing in the past when breeders first started to breed dragons in the states. I will continue to follow a safe guideline rather stepping out of the box and exploring ground that was seen already. I will also always recommend people to known safe routes and direct them down a path with less pot holes.

If this sounds odd, LOL I just woke up not more then 15 minutes ago. :lol:

 

[tattykassy]

I am not a scientifically minded person, I have not had as many pets as you have of the reptilian persuasion, however I like to think in terms of logic.
A story, if you will.
People say that McDonalds is a terrible food, nutritionally poor and not a good staple to have in one's diet. Two people, same age, same build, same health. One begins to eat McDonalds ever single day, ignoring the warnings about the nutrition. The other, eats food that is considered nutritionally superior. Fast forward 25 years, and both of them drop dead on the same day from the same issue, Heart failure.
Now, how does that happen? One person did everything they could to ensure their body was getting nutritionally sound food, the other could care less and ate what was easy.
One of those people had a genetic weakness that gave them a weak heart, and one didn't.
I bet you know which is which.
Just because the guy that ate whatever he wanted lived the same as the guy that ate smart, doesn't mean that it wasn't worth eating smart. If the guy that ate smart turned to poor foods just as the other one did, I bet he wouldn't have made it those 25 years because his heart was weak. If the guy that ate poor and had good genetics had eaten smart, I bet he would of lived longer then those 25 years.
Now, people like to argue that there is alot contradictory evidence to support that McDonalds is such a terrible food choice, although there are alot of findings that seem to suggest so. However, the food is still made available and passed through the FDA. Does that mean you ignore the warnings and eat terrible food every single day? Nothing is saying that you can't indulge once and awhile, its good to have a varied diet that consists of mostly healthy food, but once and awhile spoiling yourself with something you enjoy.
It seems to me that people are saying that mealworms are not the best choice, not necessarily saying that eating it WILL kill your dragon for sure, but rather that there are much better choices out there to give your dragon the best chance it has at being healthy. From what I have read, it seems that giving the dragon a varied diet also seems to help alot. So I may once and awhile indulge my dragon with a treat of a mealworm or waxworm or butterworm, but to suggest that he would be fine on eating those alone just doesn't seem to make sense. Would I be fine eating nothing but McDonalds every day? Probably not, but then again, I wouldn't be fine eating nothing but Celery every day either. The key is balance, and to ensure that all the nutritional bases have been covered.
Thats my two cents. :study:

 

[randommonks]

I think what people are talking about when they speak of mealworms causing impaction is being fed a large amount of mealworms as a staple feeder. You are feeding it in conjunction with other high protein, lower fat feeders which is what is generally recommended here as well.

I think people should use their own best judgement in regards to how they treat and raise their pets. There's also a fine line between a healthy argument being belligerent. There was a rumor that you should cut the heads off of superworms because they would chew out of a beardie's stomach if not chewed properly. This was also claimed to be backed by a vet's report and other people's personal experiences. I personally don't believe it to be true, but there are others who say it happened to them. It's terrific to have your own opinion, but there's no need to diminish others.

 

[tempusfugit]

Ataraxia has hit home on a few points that really bother me about information being passed along as truth on this website.. There is already some people overreacting to nothing but a question for information, so I don't want to inflame the situation anymore, but, well here goes.

When backed into a corner, the tone of the information being put forth about mealworms has DRASTICALLY changed. A random noob walks into a forum and asks about mealworms, 9/10 times you'll get 3-5 people telling you without a doubt, mealworms WILL kill your dragon. Now in this thread, when asked for proof, or anything more than a random care sheet stating such, the music changes to "nobody is saying they are THAT bad" or "well if you do them in a varied diet" or "they just aren't that nutritious"

Same thing happened with sand when I asked for proof of impaction, I got a few almost scientific answers, but everyone's tone changed from "yes I'm 100% sure sand will kill your beardie" to, "well this one time a beardie had a picture of sand in its belly, so we think sometimes maybe its bad."

I would appreciate you not using a quote from me to start a thread solely to provoke an argument. If you would like to start a civil discussion with respect to mealworms, then that is fine but to insinuate that your opinion is the only one that stands is not right, either. This does not need to turn into an argument. This is a sensitive discussion with the majority of people leaning one way of the spectrum. I have found that there are always exceptions, however my information pertaining to fatty foods stands.
Unfortunately, veterinary science does not find the time to do frivolous studies on insects they are too busy trying to find time to do studies on animals. All we have to go on are case studies from keepers & other miscellaneous information from numerous sources.

Thank you.
Tracie

I'm sorry, but this post is just pissing me off.. He didn't do anything but use your post as a point, to make his counterpoint on.. There was nothing inflammatory, he didn't insinuate his opinion is the only right one, he is asking for information..

And a frivilous study?? Going off of beardednoobs's post, dragons are the most popular lizard in the states... Not one person found time to do a single study on their dietary habits or needs? That would be a study on ANIMALS not insects. And I'm sorry, but science has learned that "case studies" as you call them are usually biased beyond usefulness.

Your entire post came off as extremely rude, especially from a mod.

 

[Claudiusx]

Find me 4 out of 5 posts where someone says feeding mealworms will kill your dragon.

I can almost guarantee you that you will not post back here with 4 links to 4 different people saying that.
With that alone it sounds like you are the one making things up for your side, just like how you say we are making up things for our side.

You can not get around the fact that mealworms are possibly one of the least nutritionally valued feeder insects available and common for bearded dragons.

There is no huge conspiracy theory going on here. No one on this site is getting paid by companies to tell everyone that mealworms are bad. We give the advice that we give based off experience, and genuinely wanting to help a dragon.
If you can not appreciate that, then that is your choice, but you should not possibly put other dragons in danger by saying "go ahead and feed mealworms, no one on this site is a scientist so they don't know what they are talking about." <-- which is basically the message I am getting from you.

-brandon

 

[tempusfugit]

lol.. I knew hyperbole would be lost on this thread... oh well


Its cool, ignore my posts, I got the answer I was looking for in tracie's post, and I'm not going to change any of your minds.. Just keep infecting the zombies coming in and turn them into your preachers..

peace.

 

[Claudiusx]

Well usually when someone makes a claim that totally goes against the norm, its good practice to back it up.

-Brandon