Losing weight after baytril - force feeding questions

[DovahDad]

Hey all. Recently my BD acquired a respiratory infection and the vet prescribed 2.5% baytril, 0.1 mL per day for 10 days. Because he was still showing some symptoms, we kept it up for 13 days (instructions said 10-14 days). He seems improved infection-wise (still makes an occasional coughing hiss sound, but much less than before).

However, I'm concerned his real problem now is the appetite loss the baytril likely caused. We had to force feed him the entire time he was on baytril, and we still have to 3 days after ceasing it. He occasionally would eat one cricket or Nature Zone Bite voluntarily, and today he ate one bite. But one is all he's good for, and that's not enough.

So my main question is, how much should we be force feeding him? He was 38 g at the vet 2 weeks ago and is now down to 33 grams. His hip bones are prominent and his eyes are somewhat sunken. He keeps his eyes half closed most of the time, though he still does move around somewhat and will climb on us and the bed when we take him out of the viv.

We've been force feeding him squash and chicken-and-rice baby food, as well as raspberry soy yogurt. We also have some Zilla Jump-Start we were giving him, but we've switched to the baby food and yogurt because the Jump-Start's so thick it's hard to give him a decent amount. We've also been giving him daily warm soaks in water mixed with children's powdered acidophilus.

We force feed him three times a day. This morning he got 0.50 mL of chicken and rice baby food and about 0.30 mL of soy yogurt. This is a relatively large amount compared to what we've been giving him, because he squirms so much. I don't think we force fed him nearly enough while he was on the baytril either, so now we're trying to up the amount and frequency.

TL;DR: How much baby food and soy yogurt is enough to feed a 33 g (formerly 38 g) BD with no appetite who's been off baytril for 3 days?

EDIT 1/20/15: Dovah is currently doing much better - has put on a lot of weight and actually voluntarily ate two crickets today. For anyone having similar problems, I've got to say he really started to put on weight and improve in energy when we switched from Gerber's chicken and rice baby food + squash baby food, to Beech Nut chicken and chicken broth baby food + squash baby food. That was when his energy and weight started going up. I also switched the mix from 50/50 chicken/squash to mostly chicken. I think this helped because young/sick beardies really benefit from extra protein.

Be careful not to give too much protein though - vary the chicken with squash and blended veggies, and replace the mixture every few days to ensure freshness.

Also, make sure not to overload them with vitamin A. Squash baby food already has a bunch, and I was mixing it with Zilla Jump Start, which has a lot. He may have actually had hypervitaminosis A for a while there, which can make them lethargic and their eyes puffy, and cause long term problems.

EDIT 2/11/15: Dovah passed away yesterday after a long battle with his illness. See my post dated 2/11/15 for more details.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Sometimes it takes awhile for them to get past the medication side effects.
You are doing great, it sounds like he just needs a bit more food.
The jump start is thick so I am glad you thinned it out for him.
You can shoot for 3-4mls daily, divided up throughout the day. That should be plenty for him, since he is still growing. You can add sweet potato or squash baby food for more starch also. You can add some bee pollen to help his immune system & appetite.
You can give the probiotics apart from the food if possible, too.
Do you have any pictures of him we could see?
Be sure to keep him around 80 overnight to boost his immune system.
I hope he feels better soon.

Tracie

 

[DovahDad]

Thanks for the input, Tracie!

At your request, here's a picture of him taken today:

Full size image here: http://i.imgur.com/U4Su2l9.jpg

It may be hard to make out, but his hip bones are showing, and they weren't before this ordeal. He also looks really tired.

We've been keeping his cage around 81-82 at night with his CHE and heating pad (under the viv floor and repti-carpet).

As for the Jump-Start, we haven't been giving it to him because it was so thick - I'll try thinning it with water.

I ordered some Acidophiliz+ and will give him that when it arrives. In the meantime soy yogurt will have to do. I could also dust his crickets with acidophilus powder. It's rare he eats one, but he did yesterday. Today he ignored it.

We have some squash baby food and will switch to that from the chicken and rice.

Bee pollen is news to me. What form, and where does one get it? How much do they eat?

Thanks again for your advice - it means a lot when our little guy is sick!

 

[DovahDad]

*UPDATE*:

He's still not doing well, and now I'm concerned there's something else wrong with him. Maybe kidney problems from the Baytril? He's been off Baytril for 5 days. He hasn't been eating voluntarily (other than one Nature Zone bite per day the last couple days) so we've been force feeding him squash baby food and watered down Jump-Start, and today 3 drops Acidophiliz+. He got a total of 3 mL food today (he's 33 g - was 38 at the vet 3 weeks ago).

He's also still doing his weird liquidy-sounding heaving-gasping thing. It's shown in this video of him at 0:08 (a little one) and at 0:23 (full strength):

http://youtu.be/y00eXleDE9M

He's been doing this since he got his respiratory infection almost a month ago, which leads me to believe the 13 days of Baytril didn't do the trick (but may have made him sick in other ways). He isn't mucus-ey anymore though.

Here's a picture of his face with his somewhat puffy, partially closed eyes:

FULL SIZE: http://i.imgur.com/6NS57Mm.jpg

Here's a close-up of his prominent hip bones:

FULL SIZE: http://i.imgur.com/Yr5B1OC.jpg


Does anyone have any experience with something like this, or any idea what his problem could be? Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

It looks like his nostrils are going to shed? If so, that could explain some of the breathing trouble.
He still isn't eating very well yet?
Sometimes the baytril doesn't penetrate like it should. If it seems like it is hanging on, maybe consider looking into nebulization treatments to get the medication delivered more deeply into the lung tissue. The oral treatments usually work but if it persists nebulizing helps out a lot.
What type of UVB light are you using?
The bee pollen is best taken in the form of a powder most of the time. You will also find the granules but powder is easier to give.
How is he liking the acidophiliz so far? Did thinning out the jumpstart help?
I can see the hipbones, are they becoming more pronounced?

Tracie

 

[DovahDad]

Hi Tracie,

He pretty much isn't eating at all. Weeks ago, before this ordeal he'd eat 3-5 crickets in a sitting, but now he ignores them. We've been force feeding him for over 2 weeks. I can't tell how he likes the Acidophiliz+, because he doesn't "like" anything we feed him. We have to use the spatula trick to open his mouth so we can give him the baby food, Jump-Start, and Acidophiliz+ and he thrashes around. He won't lick anything off his nose or out of the dropper.

The hipbones became noticeable over the course of last week. I wouldn't say they're getting any more prominent now that we've upped his force feed amounts, but they're not going away.

For UV, we use a Reptisun 10.0 T5 in the Reptisun hood from 6 a.m. to 8 p.m. Same with the 150 W basking bulb. CHE is always on. The warm side is about 83 air temp, with a basking spot of about 115.

I'd be willing to try a nebulizer treatment once I figure out how (I do have this humidifier which I could probably attach a hose to if I knew the water/Baytril ratio: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IN-BOX-...866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c945c0a02).

But first I'd like to be sure the Baytril didn't mess him up somehow. I've read horror stories about BDs being fine before Baytril and then going into kidney failure. I guess I should take him back to the vet for testing.

Thanks again for your interest in helping our little guy. We appreciate it.

EDIT: I should note he still had an appetite while he had his RI, before the Baytril.

 

[DovahDad]

For an urgent update to this situation, please check out my post on the Beardie ER board.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

The nebulizer is very effective if he is still having some breathing trouble. You can make a little chamber for the mist to go into for where he will sit.
I can go check your ER thread, too.
It can sometimes take several weeks for them to get back to normal after medication. Baytril can be particularly harsh so definitely continue to use the acidophiliz & other supplements to help out.
You may want to decrease the basking temperature down to a 95-110 range instead of upwards towards 115 which could be too hot.
I hope he feels better soon.

Tracie

 

[DovahDad]

Quick update: Called the vet today to get their opinion on how much food we should force feed him and they suggested 4-5 mL per sitting, three times a day! :shock: Based on his 32 g size, emaciated condition, and his struggling, it's hard for us to imagine he could eat that much. However, as of today we are getting 2 mL into him per sitting and will go for 4 sittings a day on weekends at least for 8 mL a day. It used to be 1 mL 3x daily seemed good, and a couple weeks before that we thought even less was okay. Clearly it wasn't enough. We're constantly learning with this little guy.

He's acted really lethargic right after we've fed him 2 mL (I suspect it's a lot of food for his frame), but then he's perked up and been more active than previously, which is encouraging.

I'm still not convinced he has an RI, so I'll hold off on the Baytril nebulizer. He hasn't shown any symptoms in a couple days.

Something new I just noticed: About 30 minutes ago he took a really stinky yellow poop! The door had been closed and when I walked in the whole room smelled. What could that mean - parasites? The vet checked his poo and didn't spot any parasites, but they're not really reptile experts.

 

[DovahDad]

Flash update: He just pooped again. I've linked to a picture below. As you can see it's pretty soft and yellow-orange (but then, so is his food). It's also quite stinky.

Poop pic - Warning: Gross! http://i.imgur.com/5fuROVy.jpg

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is great he has perked up some for you now! He has been through it.
I think the stool consistency & smell is due to the medication as well as so much food, too.
Stress can cause an increase of worms/parasites but hopefully his stress levels will be going down now if he is starting to feel better.
When they are young & growing, 6-8 mls daily is usually pretty good. Has he had any trouble with taking the food again? I think that is a good idea to forego using the nebulizer with Baytril right now.
Keep us posted on him!

Tracie

 

[DovahDad]

This morning we woke up to find a trail of runny orange poo all through his cage - quite smelly. We've swapped out his carpet with newspaper and cleaned his log and other things.

He's still acting lethargic, even after feedings. Today though in his bath, he kept trying to drink the water, so we gave him about 0.8 mL of spring water which he licked out of the syringe! That's the first time he's willingly taken anything we've offered him since he got sick. I'm thinking he's been pretty dehydrated from the runny poops. We'll keep offering water at every feeding. His color got lighter after he drank the water, but he's still very sleepy/lethargic.

EDIT: I previously said 8 mL of water, which would've flooded the poor guy!

 

[DovahDad]

Sorry to go so long between updates, but at least I come bearing good news! Dovah has vastly improved over the last couple weeks. He's put on a lot of weight - back up to around 38 g - which is where he was about a month ago at the vet after his issues started. His limbs are thicker - looks like he's been hitting the gym again! His eyes are open wider and he shows a lot more energy and animation.

For anyone who's having similar problems, I've got to say he really started to put on weight and improve in energy when we switched from Gerber's chicken and rice baby food + squash baby food, to Beech Nut chicken and chicken broth baby food + squash baby food. That was when his energy and weight started going up. I also switched the mix from 50/50 chicken/squash to mostly chicken. It makes sense this would be better, since the chicken and chicken broth has more than 3 times the protein by volume than the chicken and rice, and young/sick BD's could stand a lot more protein.

Oh, and I almost forgot - today he voluntarily ate a live cricket!! He hasn't eaten a cricket since about a month ago, shortly after starting the baytril. So all in all, things are looking up.

And because pictures are fun, here's him two weeks ago:

Full size image: http://i.imgur.com/U4Su2l9.jpg

And this is him today:

Full size image: http://i.imgur.com/bzK0uAg.jpg

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Great to hear Dovah is doing much better now!
He does have some nice colors also. At least the baby food change helped him out a lot, the extra protein likely improved his status. They do need a good amount at that age.
I am happy he ate a cricket on his own, too. Those meds really do wreak havoc on their systems sometimes.

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[DovahDad]

Hi Tracie,

Thanks for asking. His energy still seems decent, and his weight is slowly climbing to a point where you can't see his hips and he has some fat pads on his head.

However, he's back to ignoring crickets (has been since shortly after my last post), and we're still having to force feed him, or he doesn't eat at all. We'd love it if he'd eat on his own, but he has no appetite.

My one thought is he might(?) still have a lingering RI, and that can dampen their appetite. Not every day, but some days he does that gasping/coughing thing, and his saliva seems like it might(?) be sticky. He did blow bubbles when he coughed one day last week, but he hasn't done much since.

I've also read they can mimic RI symptoms when they don't want to be handled anymore, and I think he's pissed at us for all the force feeding!

So I don't know. He still won't eat, but seems mostly okay otherwise. We got a nebulizer and some baytril and saline from the vet. Should we use them? I don't want to hit him with it unnecessarily. :?