I agree that most zoos these days do try to replicate the natural enviroments as much as possible, BUT they will also eliminate the potential risks where possible. When there's clear proof of the harm loose substrates can cause, why wouldn't we want to eliminate these risks from our pets? To me, using a loose substrate is just playing with fire. You may get lucky and never have a problem with it. Or, you may come home to find a very sick or dead beardie because of issues caused by it. For me, this is not a chance I'm absolutely not willing to take.label":3v2zx663 said:I'm signing off this one but it is worth pointing out that most modern zoos try to replicate as closely as possible the beneficial aspects of animals' natural environments, as opposed to concrete and steel cages. Our beardie is happy on artificial turf but if she demonstrated a desire to dig, we'd try to accommodate this natural behaviour, just like she's got a big vertical log to sit on top of since beardies like to be able to survey their surroundings. It is everyone's option to ignore expert advice but there should be some justification besides asserting that you're right. Is there any evidence in the veterinary literature, for example, that adult bearded dragons kept with the correct temperatures, humidity and nutrition have any significant risk of impaction when kept on appropriate sand substrates? I do science for a living (nothing relevant to here) but one thing I've been taught is to go by evidence, not repeated assertions. In his book, Dr. Brown says "I use sand in enclosures housing virtually all arid or semi-arid species and for most non-rainforest arboreal species." I would at least give some credence to Australian vets and leading Australian breeders writing about the care of Australian lizards in captivity, but that's my choice; it doesn't have to be anyone else's.
In any event, I'm off this thread--it's way too much like a theological dispute. I think I'll start a new one about why we prefer the compact fluorescent lights--that shouldn't bother anyone! :wink:
claudiusx":2isg6khu said:You kind of contradict yourself here. Why do you think we recommend what we recommend? Because enough people started saying it and it became true? Come on, let's be real here. It has come from the culminated experience of hundreds of owners on this site.label":2isg6khu said:I do science for a living (nothing relevant to here) but one thing I've been taught is to go by evidence, not repeated assertions.
Many of which (myself included) had been raising dragons for over a decade. We have been around long enough to see just about every situation you could ever imagine, at least a couple times. This is what I would consider and expert, someone who has focused study, experience, and knowledge in one particular subject; not someone who has friends in the publishing world, or is thought higher of simply for a title. Can you be an expert in multiple things? Sure. Do I believe you can be an expert to the point that you can make a book on every single reptile in Australia, HECK NO. You can have a general to above-general understanding of all these reptiles, but there is no way in Hell you could have dedicated as much time and energy into researching all those reptiles and bearded dragons, as some members here actually have. Simply for the fact that he has to know a little about a lot of stuff, and we here know a lot about a certain thing, bearded dragons.
Totally disagree with you. I can think of a few examples right off the bat of instances where Studies and the "what should be" were totally contradicted by someones own experience. Take the dieting world for example. Studies and scientists said, and some still do, that intermittent fasting is pointless and dangerous. That you could never get all the nutrients your body needs from eating 1 giant meal per day, and nothing else. But, hundreds and thousands of people (especially in the weightlifting world) have done this and had experiences that totally contradict what the scientists and "studies" said should happen. Real world experiences trumps book knowledge any day of the week. This is no different.SkeptiBee":vgzo7ppw said:We should not be basing facts off experience. We should be basing it off rigorous peer reviewed study.
No actually, I made it pretty clear I thought. If you paid attention to what I said you might have noticed I was referring to the other person "reference" of an expert on bearded dragons being someone who "researched all 860+ species of reptile in Australia?" If you had your choice, would you rather take your dragon to a vet who has spent 20 years researching 860+ species of reptiles, or would you rather take your dragon to a vet who has spent 20 years researching bearded dragons. Hopefully you can make an inference on what point I am trying to make, and I won't have to explicitly state it for you. But then again, you've proven already that you confuse what has been said, so maybe I should.SkeptiBee":vgzo7ppw said:Wait, did you just say that some members of this community have researched all 860+ species of reptile in Australia?
Am I scarring you? I'm sorry. I didn't know my point came off as scary. To me, your point is scary. Tons of risk for no reward. All I simply asked in this thread was for someone to give a benefit of housing on sand. You haven't, and neither has anyone else.SkeptiBee":vgzo7ppw said:Mods, is this what you want for this community? To scare people off from ever discussing ideas because it conflicts with current standards whether that's revolving husbandry or diets?
Yaaeee":92c8f5oo said:I've seen it successfully done. I stated my opinion, in the same way you stated yours.
claudiusx":27ome9fb said:Totally disagree with you. I can think of a few examples right off the bat of instances where Studies and the "what should be" were totally contradicted by someones own experience. Take the dieting world for example. Studies and scientists said, and some still do, that intermittent fasting is pointless and dangerous. That you could never get all the nutrients your body needs from eating 1 giant meal per day, and nothing else. But, hundreds and thousands of people (especially in the weightlifting world) have done this and had experiences that totally contradict what the scientists and "studies" said should happen. Real world experiences trumps book knowledge any day of the week. This is no different.
No actually, I made it pretty clear I thought. If you paid attention to what I said you might have noticed I was referring to the other person "reference" of an expert on bearded dragons being someone who "researched all 860+ species of reptile in Australia?"
If you had your choice, would you rather take your dragon to a vet who has spent 20 years researching 860+ species of reptiles, or would you rather take your dragon to a vet who has spent 20 years researching bearded dragons
But then again, you've proven already that you confuse what has been said, so maybe I should.
Am I scarring you? I'm sorry. I didn't know my point came off as scary. To me, your point is scary. Tons of risk for no reward. All I simply asked in this thread was for someone to give a benefit of housing on sand. You haven't, and neither has anyone else.
DeweysMom":126vml5k said:I personally don't understand what's so offensive or scary in any of the posts in this thread that would make someone threaten to leave. There are no insults. There's no name calling. There's no profanity. The only thing I can see is a difference of opinion. If someone can't handle someone's thoughts and views who aren't the same as their own, maybe a public forum like this isn't for them.
If you stay, you stand to learn a lot. If you leave, you're missing out. The choice is yours.
SkeptiBee":drawnjmk said:Not you were very clear. And very wrong. Dr. Danny Brown did NOT make a book cataloging care guides for all Australian reptile species, like you claimed. Label said is was only for dragons.
http://www.reptiledirect.com.au/p/376/ARK-020-Guide-to-Australian-Dragons-in-Captivity.html
label":drawnjmk said:Dr. Brown "...has one of the largest private lizard collections in Australia has kept 175 species and successfully bred 80% of them." Hmm...sounds pretty expert to me.
Coming from the person who can't give a reason. Seems logical to me.label":2a0xx4nb said:She's a lot more open to reason.
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