Listless 2.5 year old beardie + slow shed

[TeddyLC]

Hello.

I'm in my semi-regular "panic over the state of my lizard" mode. My 2 1/2 year old beardie's weight and color have remained stable, but he has been listless for about two months now (since late July/early August). Because of the time of the year, I don't think it's brumation, and the only thing that's kept me from actually panicking is that his color is still yellow and he hasn't really lost weight. He's barely eaten - he'll wake up to eat a few bites of salad maybe once a week, if I'm lucky. Obviously, this means he hasn't been getting his calcium or vitamins, either. He hasn't defecated or passed urate since August. His viv's temp has been fluctuating but still within 85-100 (we've been having weird weather patterns lately, so sometimes the temp spikes up during the day and other times it doesn't). I am having a problem with his UVB tube - it burnt out unexpectedly early while I was out of town, and while I ordered a replacement, my roommate was afraid to try and put it into the fixture. When I got home I tried to put it in, but it seems to be defective - it won't latch into place and turn on. I sent it back and am waiting for a new one to be sent, but this means he's been without UVB about three weeks now. However, the lack of energy and appetite have been an issue for twice that duration of time. I don't have an exotic pets vet near me and I don't have a car to take him farther away... any thoughts? Advice of things to try? Should I just leave him alone since his weight looks fine, or should I be fretting since he's been low energy for so long?

On an unrelated note, I feel like he takes an incredibly long time to shed. Even giving him an extra long weekly soak while he's shedding to keep the skin soft and keep him hydrated, he'll only shed a tiny bit at a time and take upwards of around two months to finish a shed. This doesn't seem normal to me? Is there something I should be doing differently?


@mods - I meant to put this in the ER forum, oops! Could it please be moved? Thank you!

 

[EllenD]

All kinds of issues here...he hasn't had a bowel movement in almost 2 months, and wakes up to only eat once a week? So you're saying he has been in brumation? If he's been in brumation this entire time and hasn't lost any weight then that's fine, but I'm confused as to what the issue is. Obviously you need to get him a new UVB tube immediately, it wouldn't matter if he was eating and getting his calcium supplement and multivitamin if he has no UVB light. But If he's been asleep since August, not been eating or having bowel movements, and only wakes up once a week for a moment and then goes back to sleep, he's brumating...and as long as he's not lost any weight that's good. I guess I'm not understanding the issue, besides that you need to get him a new UVB tube and get his temperature gradient fixed immediately, regardless of the brumation.

 

[TeddyLC]

Hi, EllenD. Thanks for replying.

He hasn't been asleep for 2 months, just very, very low energy. I mean, yes, he has slept much of that time, but sometimes he's definitely awake - just not mobile. It seemed like it was the wrong time of year for him to be brumating (late summer?). He wakes up enough to change position in one area of his viv, where his cave is and the floor space directly outside of it. (Sometimes he sleeps fully in his cave, sometimes just his head in there, sometimes just his butt.)

Other than that he hasn't been running around, basking, or wanting to eat except the occasional few bites of salad. (Collard greens and mustard greens are his staple with intermittent squash, apples, and blueberries. Occasional dubias, which are normally his favourite, but he's not been wanting many of those, either.) When he's seemed awake enough, I put him under his heat, and he's able to move off of it his basking log and walk back to bed just fine, so his limbs are all right and he's supporting his weight fine. But yes, he hasn't lost weight, and his color is still normal. I'm just worried about how long he's been low energy and not eating, and why his sheds are so slow.

The new UVB tube should be arriving in the mail soon. I've taken him out to get a little sun, but the weather has been so weird here that I don't want him to get cold being outdoors when it's definitely way below optimal temp.

 

[EllenD]

There are lots of beardies in brumation right now, in fact more than I've seen at one time in a long time. It definitely sounds like he's in a semi-brumation. As long as he's not losing any weight and is drinking some water every 10 days or so he's fine. I wouldn't be offering him food though, not until you're sure he's completely out of it, because if he's eating and then directly going to hide and away from his lights, the food will rot in his gastrointestinal tract. Just leave his lights on (you can shorten his photoperiod by a few hours, like between 8-10 hours a day) and make sure to offer him water dripped on his nose whenever you see him up, as long as he's not in full brumation. If that happens then wake him every 10 days and give him water, but no food. If he's been in it already since August he should be coming out of it soon. Just let him do his thing, and when you see him up offer water. When you're sure he's awake and basking on his own again then offer food.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Hello.

I'm in my semi-regular "panic over the state of my lizard" mode. My 2 1/2 year old beardie's weight and color have remained stable, but he has been listless for about two months now (since late July/early August). Because of the time of the year, I don't think it's brumation, and the only thing that's kept me from actually panicking is that his color is still yellow and he hasn't really lost weight. He's barely eaten - he'll wake up to eat a few bites of salad maybe once a week, if I'm lucky. Obviously, this means he hasn't been getting his calcium or vitamins, either. He hasn't defecated or passed urate since August.
>>>> That's at least 6 weeks , and a very serious matter if he's not in brumation.

>>> what's the weather been like for that period where you are ?

>>> Lethargy and lack of appetite are serious health indicators ,see this for working out what the issue might be : viewtopic.php?f=6&t=236150&p=1815390#p1815390
> he may be impacted (what is the substrate he's on ? do you feel any hard lumps in his tummy ?)
> he might UVA deficient and likely been that way for a long time (need more details on his UV lighting see my cheat sheet : viewtopic.php?f=6&t=234738&p=1806050#p1806050
> his poor diet is contributing (a few bites of salad every so often are a totally inadequate diet) , this is how his diet should be structured : viewtopic.php?f=18&t=236074
> temperatures and photo period are likely inadequate , and thermometer used poor and inaccurate
> he may be sick

It's a simple equation , no food in , no poo out. You need to be very careful about getting food into him, chances are a big feed of insects will overload his liver and kidneys at this stage , it may be necessary to have a vet get him restarted and boost his metabolism with lots of small liquid / paste high quality suppliments .

I think a vet needs to be seen on this to check his blood work and workout what's going on.


[/color]His viv's temp has been fluctuating but still within 85-100 (we've been having weird weather patterns lately, so sometimes the temp spikes up during the day and other times it doesn't). I am having a problem with his UVB tube - it burnt out unexpectedly early while I was out of town, and while I ordered a replacement, my roommate was afraid to try and put it into the fixture. When I got home I tried to put it in, but it seems to be defective - it won't latch into place and turn on. I sent it back and am waiting for a new one to be sent, but this means he's been without UVB about three weeks now

<<< needs both UVA and UVB , I recommend at least an hour per day out on you lap in the sun if it's warm and sunny until the new light and fixture arrive.
. However, the lack of energy and appetite have been an issue for twice that duration of time.
<<< very likely the UV light was not providing sufficient UVA and UVB for months , it may never have .

I don't have an exotic pets vet near me and I don't have a car to take him farther away... any thoughts? Advice of things to try? Should I just leave him alone since his weight looks fine, or should I be fretting since he's been low energy for so long?
<<<< Where are you (town and state and country ?)
.....we can likely find a reptile vet who is handy for you, but you might need to take a taxi or ask a friend to drive you and the dragon there and back.
any vet can take xrays to check for impaction and they can likely take bloods too if need be (vets are very capable of contacting a specialist reptile vet if need be and they are out of their depth.

On an unrelated note, I feel like he takes an incredibly long time to shed. Even giving him an extra long weekly soak while he's shedding to keep the skin soft and keep him hydrated, he'll only shed a tiny bit at a time and take upwards of around two months to finish a shed. This doesn't seem normal to me? Is there something I should be doing differently?

shedding for an adult dragons is more piecemeal and haphazard , and yes , it can take a long time to shed ( a bit here , a bit there ).


@mods - I meant to put this in the ER forum, oops! Could it please be moved? Thank you!

 

[EllenD]

I would think he has to be in at least partial brumation if he's been basically asleep since August?

 

[TeddyLC]

@EllenD -- That's reassuring to hear! Thank you for all of your input.

@kingofnobbys -- The weather has been around a high of 65ºF/18ºC and a low of 45ºF/7ºC the last few weeks, although in August it was up around 105ºF/40ºC. No hard lumps in his tummy (I check constantly because I worry about this). His dubias should be small enough to not be an issue, about 1.5cm long. No loose substrate - his flooring is 1/3 glass and 2/3 wood tiles adhered together with pet-safe, non-toxic wood glue. His normal diet before this stint of low activity included fresh mustard/collard greens every day (sometimes turnip greens, but he prefers mustard), fruit a couple times a week, and 3-7 dubias a few times a week, with Repti Calcium and Rep-Cal Herptivite dusted on the salad. He won't eat the roaches if they've got the supplements on them, but he'll eat his salad that way. If he hasn't been eating much (sometimes his appetite wanes, usually while shedding), then I'll make him some apple sauce. The lack of eating only started when he began being low energy. At the start of being low energy, he still ate salad at least once or twice a week. I've taken him out when I'm home during the day and it's in the 60F/15C range, but I work full-time and I'm in school half-time, so most weeknights I'm not home until 8pm, when it's cold and dark. All he does when I get him out in the sun now is climb onto my neck or across my chest and burrow into my hair or armpit. He climbs and walks fine when he has to; he just hasn't been doing so on a day to day basis. The new UVB light - I use an 18" Reptisun 10.0 UVB tube in a domestic light fixture adhered to the wall of his viv, about 6-12" from his basking log depending on the part of the tube and the part of the log, no cover - should be here soon, so if all this is just because there was a problem with the old one, hopefully that will perk him up. I'd rather not state my precise location on a public internet forum, as it's not a large town, but I'm in the pacific northwest region of the United States. (Lots of cold, lots of rain.)
Oh, good, I'm glad the shedding seems normal. I kept expecting him to shed in larger patches - and sure, there will be a few larger patches here and there - but it seemed like his sheds were SO slow and scattered. I'm glad that's normal for an adult dragon!

 

[TeddyLC]

Update: he woke up yesterday! He still didn't want to eat anything and didn't want to bask, but he was upright and more alert for a few hours and drank a bunch of water (he likes drinking from an eyedropper) before wanting back into his viv around 9pm. He scrambled on top the top of his hide and flopped there watching us for about two hours before closing his eyes and going back to sleep.

 

[kingofnobbys]

@EllenD -- That's reassuring to hear! Thank you for all of your input.

@kingofnobbys -- The weather has been around a high of 65ºF/18ºC and a low of 45ºF/7ºC the last few weeks, although in August it was up around 105ºF/40ºC. No hard lumps in his tummy (I check constantly because I worry about this). His dubias should be small enough to not be an issue, about 1.5cm long. No loose substrate - his flooring is 1/3 glass and 2/3 wood tiles adhered together with pet-safe, non-toxic wood glue. His normal diet before this stint of low activity included fresh mustard/collard greens every day (sometimes turnip greens, but he prefers mustard), fruit a couple times a week, and 3-7 dubias a few times a week, with Repti Calcium and Rep-Cal Herptivite dusted on the salad. He won't eat the roaches if they've got the supplements on them, but he'll eat his salad that way. If he hasn't been eating much (sometimes his appetite wanes, usually while shedding), then I'll make him some apple sauce. The lack of eating only started when he began being low energy. At the start of being low energy, he still ate salad at least once or twice a week. I've taken him out when I'm home during the day and it's in the 60F/15C range, but I work full-time and I'm in school half-time, so most weeknights I'm not home until 8pm, when it's cold and dark. All he does when I get him out in the sun now is climb onto my neck or across my chest and burrow into my hair or armpit. He climbs and walks fine when he has to; he just hasn't been doing so on a day to day basis. The new UVB light - I use an 18" Reptisun 10.0 UVB tube in a domestic light fixture adhered to the wall of his viv,
<<< take a look and see if it has gold caps ... if it does , it may be you have one the dodgey production run tubes .
<<<< no reflector ==> UVA & UVB will be marginal


about 6-12" from his basking log depending on the part of the tube and the part of the log, no cover - should be here soon, so if all this is just because there was a problem with the old one, hopefully that will perk him up. I'd rather not state my precise location on a public internet forum, as it's not a large town, but I'm in the pacific northwest region of the United States. (Lots of cold, lots of rain.)
<<< that's probably enough to help find a vet for you , I guess if they need more specifics they'll PM you.
Oh, good, I'm glad the shedding seems normal. I kept expecting him to shed in larger patches - and sure, there will be a few larger patches here and there - but it seemed like his sheds were SO slow and scattered. I'm glad that's normal for an adult dragon!
<<< adults can go 12 months between major sheds, loosing a scale here and there or shedding in a more haphazard way

 

[TeddyLC]

<<< take a look and see if it has gold caps ... if it does , it may be you have one the dodgey production run tubes .
I don't remember if the cap itself was gold or not (since I mailed it back already), but I remember the little prongs on either end of the tube that lock it into the fixture were gold. Those, and the brand's print being light brown instead of black, were the only differences I could tell between this tube and his previous ones, but I assumed it was just an updated part (for the prongs) or just some weird aesthetic thing (for the logo)...

<<<< no reflector ==> UVA & UVB will be marginal
The store didn't have any reflectors that went with my fixture when I bought it two years ago, and it didn't occur to me after that... I'll try to Google how to find the right reflector for my fixture.

<<< adults can go 12 months between major sheds, loosing a scale here and there or shedding in a more haphazard way
Great, thank you! Yes, he seems to lose larger patches about once a year but only really loses a tiny bit at a time here and there spread out over several months. My roommate's ex had a beardie, and she said he always had brief sheds in which he lost everything in large patches, so she thought it was weird that mine lost his so slowly. That's what made me worry about it...

Last night!