Limp, lethargic, won't eat

[Fishercat]

Hi. I haven't had Teach long, and I'm worrying about him. I'm going to start by answering the list of questions, and then describe my concerns.

He's 3 years old.
I've had him for about two and a half weeks.
He's about a foot long, but is missing roughly half his tail.
The enclosure is is a glass 55 gallon horizontal tank: 4' long, 21" high, 13" deep, with a 1/4" hardware cloth top.
The substrate is washed and screened play sand; I also screened it before adding it to the tank.
I am using a UVB lamp: the bulb is a new ExoTerra 150 desert UVB compact fluorescent. (It's 13 watts)
Teach can get to within 6-8 inches of the bulb -- depending on how high he sits on the perch.
I'm using a separate basking bulb. It's a 150 watt infrared ceramic heat emitter, made by All Living Things. It provides only heat, no light.
The basking spot is about 90-92 degrees F.
The cool side temp is about 62 degrees F.
There are stick on thermometers on the wall of the tank, but I wasn't satisfied with them, so I've used one of my instant-read kitchen thermometers to test the basking spot and low end by placing the thermometer directly on the surface he hangs out on.
The ceramic bulb is the tank's only dedicated heat source.
I've been feeding Teach salads every day, about 20 large crickets 3x a week, and superworms as occasional treats. His greens were initially just romaine lettuce, then romaine and minced carrot, and a little spinach and bits of grape. Today, I offered him prepackaged "spring mix" greens, and a little thawed mixed veggies (peas, green beans, corn, carrots). I've been careful not to give him very much carrot, spinach, or grape.
On cricket days, he gets fed twice: first greens, then crickets. He's gotten the crickets after he finishes the greens. The last cricket day, he didn't want to eat his salad, but happily ate the crickets. When he's not getting crickets, he gets his salad in the morning, and has whatever's left removed at night.
I gutload the crickets with Fluker's high-calcium cricket diet, but was given to understand the superworms are eating their substrate (wheat bran).
I use RepCal calcium with Vitamin D3 supplement a couple of times a week. No other supplements.
He was initially pooping regularly every day, a few hours after he finished eating. That's changed.
I've bathed him twice - I was intending to giving him a 20 minute soaking bath once a week, but today I bathed him a day early to induce bowel movement (which worked).
I don't mist him, or keep water in the tank anymore, but mist his salads or don't shake the water off when preparing them.
I haven't brought him to the vet or had a fecal check done.
He's the only dragon in the house.
----------------------------
Initially, Teach was very alert and active, had a great appetite and pooped once a day a few hours after he'd finished his salad. He was also in a much different enclosure. He was in a 3' x 13" x 13" tank with paper towel substrate, a red heat lamp (same UVB), an undertank heater, and a hollowed out log perch/hide placed over the undertank heater and under the light fixture. I didn't have any thermometers in that tank.

Four days ago, I moved him to the larger enclosure described above. His current perch is a forked log from my woodpile, that I sterilized in my oven for a few hours at 325 F before placing in the enclosure. He tongue-tested the sand a bit when I first put him in the new enclosure, but hasn't made a habit of eating it.

My concerns:
-He's REALLY passive about his location in the tank. He has a tendency to go to sleep wherever I put him down in the evening, and not get up and move to go bask in the morning. He's been that way since the day I got him, when he was still very active and watchful. Last night, he bedded down to sleep in the cool part of the tank. This morning, he didn't move until I chivvied him over to the warmer sand near the basking log, which he climbed on his own eventually. The ceramic heater stays on all night.
-His appetite has decreased markedly over the last week.. worse since he switched enclosures.
-The (stick-on) hygrometer in his tank has never shown less than 40% humidity, and is usually closer to 50%. It's not really close to where he hangs out, but it's what I've got.
-His defecation pattern has changed along with the decreased appetite. I have a feeling he wouldn't have pooped (or eaten at all today) if I hadn't given him a bath.
-He has fallen (onto carpet or feet in slippers) a few times.
-I'm afraid his basking log isn't getting his belly quite warm enough to digest properly.
-The first decrease in appetite was with the greens. I thought he was getting bored, so started offering a wider variety.
-When his appetite slowed down, I almost certainly gave him too many superworms (which he ate happily).
-There was undigested food (superworms and greens) in his poop the last two days.
-He's more alert after he's been basking, but it seems to take longer and longer.
-About 1/4 of the last batch of crickets I bought died before he could eat them. (They were apparently ravenous when I brought them home, because they went after the food and water like mad.)
-He seems to be far more interested in the live prey than the greens. I know he should be getting more greens than prey by now, and I'm not sure what else to do to ensure his diet's appropriately balanced.
-He barely ate at all today.
-I'm concerned about his light/heat balance. I haven't used a timer for the light, and keep the heating element running 24/7. I'm also really concerned that the humidity levels might be making him sick, although he doesn't seem to show any visible signs of a respiratory infection. I had a small tree in the room his enclosure's in, which I moved today, hoping that might help decrease humidity levels.


My questions:
Have I got a sick lizard that needs an immediate vet visit? OR
Are there changes I should make to his environment/schedule/diet and see if he improves? If so, how long should I wait to see improvement?

I'd really appreciate any help you folks can offer. I'm very worried about the little guy.

Thanks.

 

[craniomom1]

The 1st thing I see is that your temps are too low..beardies need a min. temp of 95 to digest their food..The best temp for a 3 y.o. beardie should be around 95-100 on the basking spot and the cool side should be aound 75-80.Also I noticed you are using a compact UVB bulb,those types of bulbs can cause eye issues and don't put out the proper wavelength of UVB for Beardies..You should look into switching it to a Repti Sun 10.0 TUBE or Arcadia 12.I personally use a MVB 100w in my 40 gallon breeder tank.Most people here use the Repti Sun 10.0 TUBE.Both the Repti Sun and the Arcadia should be placed inside the tank as the screen filters out about half of the UVB rays.Also to help with raising the temps you can use a plain old household bulb(uncoated).
I think if you start with these few changes you will see more spunk in your beardie and he will want to eat more as if they are cold they don't want to eat.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

The Compact/coil light will need to be taken out as they are very hard on the eyes & emit the incorrect UVB wavelength as well as not enough UVA for overall brightness.
Using just the UVB without enough bright light is hard on the eyes, also as they need bright white light to allow proper constriction of the pupil, to protect the eyes.
You will need to use a digital probe or temp gun to accurately measure the temperatures. The temperatures need to be around 95-105 with the cooler end around 78-82. He wont be able to digest properly without being warm enough.
Since he is an adult, the washed & sifted playsand is ok, but watch to make sure he doesn't ingest it to have tummy issues or get impacted. It needs to be kept clean also to avoid bacterial issues.
Do you have any pictures of your tank setup also?

Tracie

 

[Drache613]

Oops, double post.

Tracie

 

[Fishercat]

Hi. Thanks very much for the replies. Having some answers and a direction to go is very reassuring.

I don't have a picture of my current tank setup, but I'm about to change it. The UVB and heat lamps are currently resting on the lid to the tank. I'm going to mount them just inside the tank, effectively lowering them about 6 inches. I'm also going to build Teach a little basking wall and staircase out of brick, to better absorb and retain heat. The bottom bricks will be resting directly on the floor of the tank, rather than on the sand, and bricks are wider than he is, so it should offer stable support. I can post a picture when I've made the changes.

I wasn't able to find any descriptions of the optimal UVB wavelength for beardies online. Can you tell me what those wavelengths are? I've still got the bulb package, and it has a chart showing its output. The bulb is designed for reptiles, and to work through dense screen covers. It's Exo Terra's *Repti Glo 10.0 compact. http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/compact_fluorescent_bulbs.php. He doesn't have another dedicated source of electric light, but the vivarium's in a very bright, sunny room, with good southern and western exposure. His UV lamp doesn't go on until the curtains are opened in the morning. Do you still think I need another source of visible light, maybe for cloudy days or in the evening before it's lights out?

For what it's worth, I'd prefer to change the setup such that it retains heat better, rather than increasing the amount of heat going into the tank. Partly to use less energy, and partly because I live in a region of the U.S. (upstate New York) that's prone to power outages. In the winter, heavy snow or ice storms take down power lines, and in the summer, electrical storms blow transformers. It rarely lasts long, but I'm still more comfortable relying on retained heat rather than constant power output.

I've been watching to be sure he's not eating the sand. I did worry initially, because he did tongue-test it a lot, but he seems to be over it. When he pooped in the bath yesterday, there was a little sand, but I guess that's to be expected, given all the testing he'd been doing, and what a messy eater he is. I've been cleaning poop as soon as I see it, and plan on replacing the substrate and washing the tank and basking wall at least monthly. More often if it seems to need it.

My plan is to modify the tank setup and get a better thermometer today. Any other suggestions?

Thanks again for the help.



*Sorry I didn't use that description before; the package says "Former Repti Glo 10.0 compact".

 

[Fishercat]

Hi.

I've uploaded three photos of Teach enjoying his new basking wall, but I'm not sure how to get them to show up in this post.

I put him up there, since he seemed tired and disinclined to climb up on his own. (He had several hours of supervised out-of-tank time.) He's been a lot perkier today. He pooped before I fed him (or changed the vivarium setup), and then hungrily ate about half his salad. I've now got a heat gun thermometer, and am satisfied that the temperature gradient in the tank is good.

Remaining question from earlier: Do I still need an additional source of visible light?

Thanks again.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Yes, he needs a basking light, along with a UVB light if you get the Reptisun 10 tube bulb or the Arcadia D3 12% to protect his eyes.
The compact/coil lamps are not good for their eyes & emits improper wavelength of UVB. I can send a link over with UVB meter results, if you want, I will just need to dig it up.
That is good you have a temp gun now to measure his temperatures, that will help a lot!
Let us know how things are coming along.

Tracie

 

[Fishercat]

Hi.

Thanks, Tracie. Yes, please, if you could dig up that link, I'd appreciate it. The bulb I have says that it's designed for desert lizards, and emits the right wavelengths of UVB for Vitamin D3/calcium metabolism. It even has a chart showing how much D3 it provides at what distance from the critter. If there's contradictory information available, I'm really interested in reading it.

He seems to be doing much better. He ate ravenously this morning, finishing almost all of his salad and going after his crickets fiercely. I've changed his basking wall around a little to give him twice as much room on top, which will give room for me to put his salads up there, keeping them out of the sand. I've already been doing that, but the wider wall will let me just leave it there instead of hand feeding/balancing his plate.

I do have more questions about health and husbandry, but I'll post those in other forums, since I don't think Teach is in "ER" condition any longer.

Thanks again,

Karen

 

[Drache613]

Hello Karen,

Sure, give me a bit & I will dig up the information for you. They "claim" it but the actual tests & information prove otherwise. Compact/coil lights in general are not really bright enough & are harder on the eyes, too.
How is he doing today?
I am glad to hear he is eating better today also. Is he basking normally too?

Tracie

 

[Fishercat]

Hi, Tracie.

Thanks. I look forward to reading it.

Teach is doing so much better since I posted initially. Moving his lamps inside the screen and giving him a heat-retaining basking spot has made a huge difference. His appetite is staying good, and he's gotten much more active about basking. He's been spending almost all his time on the warm side of his tank. The only time I see him on the cool side is when he's chasing crickets, since I release them there, away from his basking wall. He often poops on the cool side, but I rarely catch him in the act.

Thanks again,

Karen

 

[Drache613]

Hello Karen,

I almost forgot, I had to go look up the link.
How is he doing today?



http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/message/7739

Once she has the entire, updated version of her test results, you can see the overall results of the UVB, UVC readings & comparisons.
Here is her UVB UK guide:

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/

I hope he is improving daily for you & eating well, too.

Tracie

 

[Fishercat]

Hi, Tracie.

Thanks so much for the links.

The general info about UVB wavelengths in the first link agrees with the output chart on the bulb package. So, I don't think the manufacturer is lying about the output of their product.

The summary report in the second link was very interesting, and I'm looking forward to reading the updated report once it's finished. Based on what I've read, the particular bulb I'm using hasn't been tested. This is what she has to say about a similar bulb from the same manufacturer.

With the exception of the ExoTerra lamps, these all have UV spectra very similar to the lamp known as UVA-340.(7) The typical spectrum of one of these lamps may be viewed here (external link; opens in new window; pdf file - takes short time to load) This is widely used in photobiological experiments and other tests requiring artificial sunlight, since it is claimed to have the closest possible resemblance to solar UV in the UVB portion of the solar spectrum.(8)(9) The spectrum is also very similar to that of human tanning lamps with a high UVB content.(10) Slight differences in the phosphor blends and in the composition of the lamp glass cause some variations in the spectral pattern, and affect the total amount of radiation produced, as does the wattage of the lamp and its type (compact or linear tube). The ExoTerra ReptiGlo lamps have a similar spectrum to the others in the UVB region, but significantly more UVA, especially higher-wavelength UVA. This would probably make the lamp more visible to a reptile (with visual threshold from 350nm)(11) than other types.

(emphasis mine)

Again, this agrees with the chart on the bulb package, which shows a much higher visible light output than one might expect from a bulb marketed as "Desert UVB." The chart describes the bulb emitting about 80% more visible light than UVB.

Between this info, and the information I'm getting from Teach, who spends most of his day happily basking with his eyes open, I'm going to keep the current lighting arrangement. I think I mentioned earlier, but it may have gotten lost in the shuffle, that his vivarium is in a bright, sunny room. He spends much of his time facing the windows. So, it really seems like he's getting enough visible light to dilate his pupils and prevent problems. He mostly seems to close his eyes when he's sleepy, or enjoying gentle strokes down the spine.

He's continuing to be alert and adorable, eat well, poop regularly, and be variably active or mellow, depending on the time of day and brightness of his surroundings. Knowing that there have been problems with some compact UVB lamps, I'll continue to watch for any indication that his eyes are bothering him, and I'll definitely check out the updated report once it's available.

Again, thanks very much. I really appreciate your concern for Teach's health and your having taken the time to find the info I was looking for.

Cheers,

Karen