Lethargy, no appetite, uncontrolled bowel movement

Status
Not open for further replies.

TeddyLC

Member
Hello, all! I haven't been here in a while... life kind of got crazy over the winter and into spring, but everything had been going well with Wade. Now, I've been kind of freaked out...

My beardie is just shy of 11 months old now. I've had him since November. He was pretty mellow, but had a great appetite and good energy when out of his tank. Great sleeping habits, ate greens, loved roaches - easily ate 15-30 a day depending on the size - and pooped reliably once a week, etc.

For the last couple of weeks, however, he's been extremely listless. He still runs around outside of his viv just fine and has no issues with mobility or balance, but inside of his tank, he barely moves and has pretty much stopped eating. It's a struggle to get him to even eat five roaches a day - some days he won't eat any - and he's only been picking at his salad at best, leaving more than half of it untouched every day. He has been staying in the same spot for 12-24 hours at a time, whether it's at the edge of his basking spot or in his enclosure; I know because even his limbs will be positioned exactly, or maybe one leg will have moved. The lack of eating worried me, but only a little; he always seems to lose his appetite when he's due to poop, and gets it back roughly 24 hours after defecation is complete, and sometimes he just doesn't eat very much but then his appetite picks up again after several days.

The part that freaked me out completely was when I woke up yesterday to find that he had pooped in his bed while sleeping so that he was lying, eyes still closed, in the middle of very wet stool. Once I started mopping around him to pick up the worst of the mess, he woke up and seemed to realize how gross it was because he began edging away, but even that was pretty lazy. I've never seem him just let loose in the middle of the night before. His bowel movements have always been very purposeful, out in an open area of his tank, away from his cave. For just the last few days, once in a while, he'll also close his eyes and give a little head twitch. He doesn't shake or shiver in general, and the twitch is mostly when I'm annoying him by trying to get him to eat... I haven't noticed any twitches at all when he's left alone to just hang out. The bizarre defecation plus the lack of appetite for over a week plus the lethargy plus the occasional twitching has me completely freaked out, although I'm relieved that when he does move, his energy is totally fine. He doesn't look skinny to me, either; his belly still hangs nice and solid.

full


I know he probably has some degree of calcium/vitamin deficiency because for the past couple of months he absolutely refuses to eat anything that's been dusted with either his Herptevite or Repticalcium. I manage to sneak some into his salad sometimes before he cottons on and avoids it, too. His temps seem fine - 105-110 under his basking lamp, 75-80 on the cool side of his tank. I tried giving him some sugar-free organic apple sauce, but he won't open his mouth for it... I wondered if it was dehydration, but A) he drinks some water about every other day when I pester him with it, and B) his stool has always had moisture, so I don't think that's it. His salad alternates mustard greens and collard greens and the occasional little bit of kale; if he's not drinking I'll give him just a tiny bit of lettuce, but I haven't needed to in like two months. He won't touch anything else. :\ Hates squash and pumpkin and such. Absolutely won't eat at all outside of his tank; never has. How do I get him to eat? He's still too young to be brumating, isn't he? Does he look okay? The pooping in his sleep is weird, isn't it?


EDIT: Sorry, forgot to add - he's got a Reptisun 10.0 UVB lamp plus a basking bulb. Both are from late November, so only about 4.5mo old. His main protein is dubia roaches, or was when he was eating. No loose substrate of any sort. He responds normally to physical stimuli. Legs work fine. Both eyes seem to be responsive to movement. He just finished a half-shed about a month ago.
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Hi there.....poor Teddy, those are mysterious symptoms/behavior. He does however, look quite healthy.It's possibly related to a semi brumation.....if he doesn't want to eat but then does so reluctantly it may cause him to poo in his sleep which he otherwise would not do because he'd naturally be " empty " during a brumation. You wouldn't need to give applesauce/pumpkin, that's given to help impacted dragons to get the bowels moving. His reduction in amount of food eaten is normal as they approach adulthood.

Do you have an experienced reptile vet ? If Teddy continues to act strangely or worsens noticeably [ esp. pooing in his sleep], you might take in a fecal sample and you could opt for some blood work, then ask for the results + post them here. I stress that it should be a vet that has experience with reptiles. Inexperienced vets can mess up your dragon + cost you a lot of money.

Hopefully it's something simple...I know some beardies do go in to brumation this time of year, or at least a " slow down " with a lesser appetite + activity. I do think that's what it is, and he just needs you to let him have his sleepy time + no food being pushed every day.
 

TeddyLC

Member
Original Poster
Ohhh... so if Wade is semi-brumating, my pestering him to eat is probably what led to his unusual defecation? D: Oh, man, now I feel bad! I know applesauce is normally for impaction, but I was just desperate for him to eat anything, so I figured it was worth a shot. ;_; Like maybe he'd just decided he didn't like roaches or his usual salads?

I don't have a reptile vet, no - I haven't lived in this area for long, and I'm just about to move again in a few weeks, so I hadn't had a reason to seek one out before. :( But I'll try leaving him alone, and if he poos in his sleep again, I'll look up a reptile vet. It seems strange to me for him to go into brumation at this time of year when it's getting warmer instead of colder... I guess his instincts are still on Australian time!

Thank you so much - I feel a hundred times better!
 

TeddyLC

Member
Original Poster
Well, update... now Wade is moving around and being much more alert. He basks again, he migrates from place to place, and he's eating a little. He's still not eating much, though, and he's still refusing anything with the Herptivite or the ReptiCalcium. :\
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Teddy is 4.5 months old? How much does he weigh? He has great size on him for that age, actually. He looks very good.
The applesauce could have caused the looser stool. I agree, it is possible that he has been slightly slown down for brumation recently. He should be coming out of it though, by now. How long has he been lethargic or not eating much?
Some dragons start a brumation phase in the late spring to early summer here. I guess they are on Australian time or something.
You could consider getting a fecal done on him, just to be sure there isn't anything else going on. Just be sure not to let the vet medicate for no reason. Especially if he is a little slown down, it could really be detrimental for his health.
Is the Reptisun 10 a long tube bulb or a compact/coil light?


Tracie
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Tracie, the dragon's name is Wade, I assumed it was the user's name [ Teddy ] so I also asked how Teddy was. And Wade is 11 months old. There, got that straight. :)

It sounds like it was a partial brumation, and he is just getting his appetite back. What exactly is he eating, and how much ? You might try finding a baby food or all natural fruit [ cherry, blueberry ] juice that he likes, then water it down , add a bit of the calcium powder [ just a tiny pinch ! a couple times a week and vitamins as well. Or maybe you are just adding too much powder on his food....see if he'll eat if you use less.
 

TeddyLC

Member
Original Poster
Hello! Thank you both for your replies!

Yes, AHBD is right, the dragon is Wade and he's 11 months. :) He's about 375g as of tonight, about 20cm snout to vent. A picture of him from just now:
full


He didn't have hardly any apple sauce, really - he gave it a lick but didn't otherwise eat it, so I don't think it would have been enough to contribute to the loose stool. He hasn't had another bowel movement since then, though, and it's been nearly two weeks... I've bathed him twice (oh, how he hates baths!) and fed him some water in case he was dehydrated, but I suspect the lack of BMs is more a matter of him refusing to eat. I'm in the middle of moving this week (he's staying put until the very last day, as I don't want to stress him out with a move), but if he's still not eating normally I'll try to find a reptile specialist vet once I'm moved.

The Reptisun is a long tube, adhered directly onto the inner wall about 30cm from the bottom of the tank. He was lethargic since about mid/late-March through a few days ago. His energy has picked up; he climbs around his tank again, even if it's just to wander from one lounging spot to another. (I wonder if he's bored or depressed?) He's eating a few roaches every day now, but still very little. He thrilled me yesterday by eating 15 small roaches (most of them were about 1cm or smaller, although a few were 1.5cm) so I managed to sneak in a sprinkle of Herptivite in the middle of his feast, but he stopped eating again just a few roaches after that. Today he only ate three roaches... the last few days before yesterday, he only ate two or three.

His main salad consists of mustard greens and/or collard greens. He's not a big fan of collards so they generally just go dry, but he usually eats most of his mustards. He also eats dubia roaches ranging in size from 1cm to 1.5cm. I give him a little bit of kale on occasion as well, although not much - I read that kale binds calcium or something, so it's not meant to be a staple, but a little once in a while is okay? So I'll give him just a little bit of kale once every few weeks. He seems to like kale and mustard greens best of all, so that if I feed him those in the morning before leaving for work and check on him right after, he's eaten probably 70% of his salad through the day. (Until recently, that is...) He does not like fruit. I've given him diced apple, bananas, a wee bit of orange, butternut squash... he shuns them all entirely. I still offer them to him every couple of weeks, but he doesn't eat them, and they invariably go dry. I think I must have the pickiest beardie on the face of the planet. :( I've never tried giving him cherries or blueberries - my mother goes berry picking at a farm so she gives me frozen bags of them, so it's never occurred to me to buy them, but I'll give them a shot.

I definitely don't add too much powder on his food. Because of his resistance to the stuff, I sprinkle on very little - when I used to dust them more thoroughly months ago, he would turn his head away completely, so I decreased the amount and decreased again and decreased again... He doesn't chase them, either, never has. If I have him in a separate feeding area the roaches will just run around and he'll stare at them but ignore them. He likes them moving, but not moving too fast or too far away, and he mostly ignores them when they're still. He used to eat them off my fingers happily, but he's just gotten so lazy... He still runs about merrily outside of his tank, though, so he's not entirely low energy. Just terrifically disinterested in eating.

He did the head-twitching again tonight. :( I've never noticed him do it when just lying about, but sometimes when I try to coax him to eat his head will twitch...
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

OH my, I read that wrong, didn't I? :oops: Sorry about that.
I thought he seemed young for what he actually looked like in the pictures! I was thinking wow, he is BIG for his age.
So many of them are so picky when it comes to greens & it can be so completely exasperating!
Just keep on trying though, maybe eventually he will become keen on them.
I definitely think he has just been in a slow down phase which for his age is normal. It sounds like he is coming out of it a little bit though, if he is starting to eat some now.
If he isn't taking in much calcium he is probably exhibiting low calcium symptoms such as the head twitching. Can you get a liquid calcium to use for him for awhile to help since he wont eat anything dusted? Or will he eat dusted insects or not?
The Reptisun 10 tube bulb is new correct? Is it mounted directly overhead or on the wall of the tank?

Tracie
 

TeddyLC

Member
Original Poster
Hello!

Perfectly fine! It happens all the time! And no, if anything, I always worry that he's small for his age with his finicky appetite...!

If his length and weight seem all right despite the lack of eating, I'll not worry about them too much, then (if possible)!

Nope, he absolutely will not eat dusted insects. Lately, he doesn't eat hardly any insects except the single fluke of a day that he ate 15, despite that he'd previously been absolutely mad for dubias... but with either the calcium or the multivitamin he will refuse to touch even one. I can sometimes trick them into his salad, like on the underside of his leaves so he'll eat a few, but he eats less salad when there is powder on them, too. I don't recall seeing any sort of liquid calcium on the shelves at my pet shop, and the photo I took of their products (for price reference) on my phone don't show any liquid calcium, but maybe they keep liquid ones in a separate place...? If they need to be refrigerated or something? If they just don't carry them at all, I'll try to find some online once I'm done moving and my mail situation is all sorted.

The Reptisun is going on five months old now, so due to be replaced in about a month - I got it either at the end of November or the beginning of December. It's mounted on the inner wall of the tank. There's no cover to block it, no glass in the way.

Thank you!
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Are you in Australia or Europe or the US? The petstores may carry Zocal -D which is a liquid calcium you could try out since he wont eat anything with the calcium dustings. If you are in the US then there is the Zilla brand in stores. What a stubborn boy he is!
You could put a good pinch of calcium powder on a green leaf, roll it up & hand feed it to him. That could work, it would be sneaky! LOL
Hopefully his appetite will start to pick back up soon. It is hard not worrying about them though, I know.
The tube bulb is mounted on the wall, is it overhead though? It would be more effective being mounted overhead, if possible so the UVB is directly more downward on him.

Keep us posted on him.
Tracie
 

TeddyLC

Member
Original Poster
Hi, Tracie.

I'm in the US - I will look for the Zilla brand when I next go to the pet shop. I used to go every 2-3 weeks to replenish Wade's roaches, as it takes almost an hour to get there, but since he's been hardly eating any and my adult dubias have been consistently hatching nymphs for a while now, I haven't had occasion to make it to that part of town in a while. Is this the right product? http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001D729SK/ If so, I could just order it online once I'm moved...?

He's never accepted greens by hand. I still try periodically, but he never has. He'll eat roaches off my hand (or he did, when he ate them more regularly...) but he's never liked being handfed salad, for some reason. But he still does generally eat salad from his dish, so a liquid spray might do the trick!

It's over him on the wall, but if you mean is it on the lid of the tank, then no. I don't use a lid at all, so there's nowhere to mount it directly overhead. This is his set-up:
full


The latest update: He ate ten roaches the day before yesterday! But no salad. And hasn't come out of his bed since. :( And he hasn't pooped in... since April 5th, and it's now the 23rd... I took him out yesterday and put him under his lamp to bask, and his mobility was fine ("moooom, whyyy nooo" :p), but after only a few minutes he went back to bed...
 

AHBD

BD.org Sicko
Well since he has eaten, you might take the hide out so he has to bask, just put it back in later in the day. Give him an extra warm soak at least twice a week to help him poo and now offer some applesauce, canned pumpkin, baby food prunes, squash all or any of those with about 1/4 teaspoon veg. oil or raw honey mixed in. And you might try to rig his uvb on top of the tank somehow. It may be bothering his eyes from the side like that.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

It really sounds like he is partially brumating! I think he is lazy, but if he is eating a little bit here & there, just be sure he basks enough for the day. I like the idea of taking the hide out right now so he can digest.
Yes, that paticular Zilla should be fine so he should hopefully like it. Any flavor would do just fine for him also. Does he seem to be maintaining his weight?
It's hard to tell but does the tube bulb fixture have a curved top piece over it to help direct it downward more onto him? Sometimes if they don't have enough of a fixture over the tube light the light can glare into their eyes too much.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie
 

TeddyLC

Member
Original Poster
@ AHBD

Okay, I've removed his hide for now (although he wouldn't eat today) and will commence with an extra bath and apple sauce with honey in the next day or two - I'm moving in about 12 hours so all that stuff is packed up in a box somewhere at the moment. :(


@ Tracie

He is definitely very lazy, haha. Hopefully he really is just brumating, and the liquid calcium will take care of the calcium deficiency! Per both of your advice, I've taken out his hide for now. I used to take it out for a bit if he hadn't been out of it all day, but then I'd read people being told to let their beardies keep their hides even if they're being antisocial, so I started leaving it in and just removing him from it...
Okay, I will order that Zilla once I'm all moved and I know the postal service has registered my change of address! His body looks the same, but his scale is packed away in my mountain of boxes somewhere, so I haven't weighed him since Sunday (April 17th).
The light does not have a cover, no, although I could probably rig something up once I research a material that won't burn in contact with the light? Do you have a reference for how it should look? I thought his light set-up was fine based on other approved set-ups around the forum, but maybe I missed something... The fixture completely covers the back and top of the tube bulb, but the front and bottom are open. There used to be a plastic cover over it, but I removed that so it wouldn't block the UVB rays. He doesn't seem to mind the light - he'll sit under it sometimes and I've never noticed him squinting or keeping his head away or anything like that?


Thank you both so much!
 

TeddyLC

Member
Original Poster
Just a quick update to say that I haven't found the scale or ordered the liquid calcium yet, as I'm currently living out of boxes and don't have my mail sorted yet (judging by the lack of post that's arrived in my name so far), but Wade finally had a bowel movement and passed a urate yesterday and ate half a salad! His bowel movement was terribly watery, but given that he hasn't been eating hardly any roaches except for two isolated meals in well over a month now, I'm not really surprised by the lack of solidity... His urate looked good, though, and I've been setting him out to bask each day, and he was running around my room for a bit while I put together furniture.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

No members online now.

Latest resources

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Go88 là một trong những nhà cái cá cược trực tuyến hàng đầu với danh tiếng vững chắc trong cộng đồng người chơi.
Website: https://https://appgo88.link/
Tag: #appgo88link #go88link #Game_Go88 #Game_bài_Go88 #Cổng_game_Go88 #Tài_xỉu_Go88 #Nạp_tiền_Go88 #Rút_tiền_Go88 #play_Go88
Website:
https://smartcity.bandung.go.id/member/bsc3090527795d
Mirage came out of brumation on April 26. He was doing great. On May 2 he started acting funny. We just redid his tank, and he keeps going into one of his hides. He just lays there. He shows no intrest in food. HELP!
is tape safe for fixing something in my leopard geckos hide?
Day 3 of brumation. It's a struggle. I really miss my little guy. 😔
Mirage entered brumation yesterday, I'm gonna miss hanging out with my little guy.

Forum statistics

Threads
156,220
Messages
1,259,113
Members
76,140
Latest member
Jesper
Top Bottom