Lethargic beardie- can't get him back to normal

[joesaldivar]

I wrote a post several weeks ago about my one year old beardie, Rocky. We'd let some neighbors take care of him while we were away on vacation which was a big mistake. Long story short, their kids let him out of his cage an didn't put him back in and he went for several days with no food or water. He developed parasites soon afterward, probably due to the stress. I got some meds from the vet and treated him. A followup stool sample showed no parasites. However, he is still very lethargic - goes to "bed" at around 6pm and stays in the same spot for at least twelve hours. He also has diarrhea several days a week. Another odd thing - he's developed brown stripes on his belly that he never had before. I'm going to take another stool sample in if he ever has another one firm enough to collect. Does anyone have any ideas? I haven't made any other changes in his environment. When he's awake and moving around he looks fine and happy. He just sleeps a lot and the diarrhea - ewww! I've had to switch him to paper. I wonder if he's depressed because he doesn't have sand to dig in anymore? Any input is appreciated.

 

[diamc]

Sorry to hear about Rocky. If you could give us a rundown of your setup it would help us rule things out. What brand & type of UVB are you using? What is the distance to the UVB? How often are you using calcium & vitamin supplements? What are the temps and what type of thermometer are you using? What substrate is on the bottom of his tank? What are you feeding him and how much of each daily? How do you keep him hydrated and how often? What antibiotic was he on and how long ago did he finish it? Did you give a probiotic during that time?

 

[joesaldivar]

I'm using a MegaRay 100w bulb located 14 inches above his basking spot. The basking spot is 100degrees and the cool spot is about 82 degrees. I use a simple room thermometer I bought at WalMart. Substrate used to be sand until the diahrrea started then I switched to paper about six weeks ago. I leave a water dish out at all times. I occasionally spray him but not on a regular basis. We've had him a year and have never had to do that. I put calcium on his crickets and offer as many as he wants every other day. I feed fresh veggies (kale, green beans, carrots, broccoli, corn) on the days I don't offer crickets. I don't know what meds the vet prescribed. I threw away the packaging after I had administered the doses. I do know he was diagnosed with two different parasites. One medication I gave twice, 14 days apart. The other med I had to give everyday for 7 days.
This entire setup has been the same for the nine months we've owned him and we've never had a problem until the parasites set in - except for the newspaper. We did have him on sand.

 

[diamc]

Moved from Health forum so it would get the attention it needs

The Megaray, as you know, is a real good MVB. What size tank is he in? Does he ever go near the Megaray or is he just laying on the bottom away from it? What is the temp where he lays most often? I'm not sure what you meant by "I use a simple room thermometer I bought at WalMart." There are actually only 2 ways to get accurate readings and that is with either an infrared temperature gun or a digital thermometer with a long wire & probe end. If you're not using either of those, your temps can be off by as much as 20 degrees. Walmart has an AcuRite brand digital with probe for about $12.00 that will give you both basking & cool side temps at the same time as well as a humidity readout. Here is a picture of it and you should find it in the area where the plastic outdoor thermometers are sold. It's a great investment and it's critical that you have accurate temps especially since you are using a MVB. Those bulbs throw out a LOT of heat and can cause rapid dehydration if the temps are too high.

It sounds like his diarrhea has been going on for quite some time. If you haven't been bathing him & only misting him, he has to be very dehydrated. So, a thorough soaking in warm water tested by the inside of your wrist (should feel warm but not hot or cold) should be done asap and doing that at least twice a day for about 15 to 20 minutes each time would help to slowly rehydrate him. Also giving diluted Pedialyte (3 parts water to 1 part Pedialtye) by needle-less syringe or plastic medicine dropper by putting drops on his nose for him to lick off will help raise his electrolytes that are also depleted when having diarrhea.

All the vegetables that you mentioned you are feeding, shouldn't be fed very often. The kale and carrots have high Vit A and oxalates and should only be fed occasionally, the green beans, broccoli and corn should only be fed rarely because they all have high oxalates and the broccoli also has high vitamin C. High oxalates deplete the calcium intake and a high vitamin content in any of them can cause a vitamin toxicity. I recommend that you take a look at this site, it has the best greens/veggies in green print: http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html Feeding greens like collards, endive, escarole, turnip & mustard greens would be much better and safer for him. Squash is also very good.

Are you feeding live crickets, canned or frozen? Live crickets are much healthier. If you weren't giving a probiotic during the antibiotic treatment, giving one now would help restore the good gut flora that the antibiotics kill off. Soy yogurt (non-dairy), Acidophilus, Benebac are all probiotics that would help with that.

Even though you've been feeding and doing things the same way for months, since he developed the parasites, it compromised his immune system which is making him more vulnerable to all sorts of health issues. I would recommend making immediate changes in his feeding and hydration as well as filling us in on your thermometer so that we can try to get him healthy. Getting another fecal checked would be a good idea and the vet would be able to check his diarrhea sample for parasites.

 

[joesaldivar]

Thanks so much for your input. I'm off to WalMart to day armed with a picture of the thermometer and list of veggies from the website you referenced. I ordered a new light bulb yesterday. His old bulb is only three months old so should still be OK but I remember once that we had to go without a UVB light for several days and it made him very lethargic then. I just want to switch bulbs as a test to be sure the one I have is putting out enough UVB rays. As for the bathing, the reason that I don't bathe him more is that he HATES it. I run a small amount of warm water in a bathroom sink and when I try to put him in he starts "running" with his legs trying to get out. It would be like torture to keep him in there 15 minutes. Should I just force him to stay and see if he gets used to it? He doesn't mind being misted. Maybe I could just mist him every minute or two for 15-20 minutes? I feed him live crickets as opposed to canned. I can't stand the smell of those canned things. I dust them with calcium. I haven't been adding a vitamin supplement but I will start today.
Thanks again for your input.

 

[Buggsy]

Most beardies dont like baths at first and become used to it after time. You could always put a wash cloth on the bottom so he has a feeling of stability. Misting will not really give him any fluid, they get most of their fluids through the vent at the base of the tail. By soaking in water they get the maximum ammount of water.

And you were right not to feed the canned stuff, im not too sure if is all that nutritious, live is much better!

 

[joesaldivar]

I'll try the washcloth, or maybe I could find a flat, clean piece of wood - something for him to hang on to while he's in the water. thanks

 

[crickest]

Also, you might try the bathtub instead of the sink. My Spark hates the sink, but doesn't mind the bathtub too much and its easier to get the water the right depth, IMO. It also gives your beardie room to move around, in case he's a thrasher.

 

[Ruthlynn]

Frodo much prefers the bath too - doesn't like bathing in a bowl at all!

Ruthie

 

[diamc]

Joe, I really can't stress enough that I believe that the main reason for his lethargic behavior is dehydration. You could try using the bathtub, but be sure to put a towel down in the bottom for him to have something to hang on to so that he doesn't slide around, that makes them feel more secure. You can try the sink again with a washcloth on the bottom or even a transparent container, also with a washcloth down. Adding enough warm water to cover their front legs is also a good idea and it helps them stay warm longer. If you think he would be more comfortable, hold him in the palm of your hand and with his body at a slant so that the water can enter his vent area. The more often you bathe him, the sooner he will get used to it. Beardies are very smart and cue from their owners, so if you make the bath a fun time rather than being sure that he will hate it, it may help him relax more. Just misting him will only help the very top layer of skin, won't help hydrate him at all. As I mentioned, giving him oral fluids will also help.

That's good that you're going to look for the thermometer, let us know how you make out. I hope you're able to find some of the foods on the beautiful dragons site too. I'm glad that you're using live crickets. How many does he eat in a day?

Please give us an update when you can.

 

[joesaldivar]

I went and bought him some collard greens and squash tonight. He ate ten or fifteen crickets today and a few Buffet Blend pellets that I leave for him almost all the time. I also bought the thermometer, just like the one in the picture you showed me. His basking area is about 104. Do you think that's too hot? I just ran out of time this evening and he's already asleep. I'll bathe him in the morning and try some of the tips I've been reading about to see if he'll enjoy it more. I'll give everyone an update.

 

[diamc]

That's great that you found that exact thermometer. Just to be safe, I thought I would give you the instructions on using it. You lay the probe end so that it is resting on (actually touching) the basking and place the thermometer part way over on the bottom of the cool side, wait about 45 min for the temp to stop rising, then the "out" reading will be for the basking spot and the "in" reading for the cool side. Had you waited 45 min or so before getting the 104 reading?

Hopefully he'll like the collards & squash. Eating 10 to 15 crickets is good. Since you're using a MVB, you should be using calcium without D3 since those bulbs produce D3 on their own. I don't think we discussed this before. If you were using a fluorescent strip bulb instead, then you should use calcium with D3. Also, since he is only 1 yr old, make sure you're dusting his live feeders with calcium 5 days a wk and with vitamins the other 2 days a wk. Once he reaches 1 1/2 yrs old, then you would cut the calcium back to 3 days a wk and the vitamins only 1 day a wk.

Sure hope everything goes more smoothly now. Is he still having diarrhea?

 

[joesaldivar]

I did leave the thermometer in for about 45 minutes so I believe the reading was accurate.
I have the calcium without D3. I believe I read somewhere before that that is what I should be using. I'll follow your advice about the vitamins - two days a week.
I think you asked about his cage before and I didn't answer. It is three foot wide and about 18" deep. It has a second level on one side so he can crawl up and down and have more floor space. He also has a natural log that he crawls around on. He doesn't seem to be cramped. We also let him out almost daily to walk around in the house. I also have an outdoor totally screened-in cage that we let him enjoy sometimes when it isn't too darned hot here in Texas.
He hasn't pooped in a couple of days. Hopefully the soaking I give him this morning will help him with that. Quite honestly, it's been hard to tell lately if he has diarrhea or not. He has a tendancy to poop after I leave for work in the morning and walk through it sometime during the day. By the time I get in from work it's flat and dry so it's hard to tell what it looked when he pooped.
I'll update later. Thanks for taking such an interest in him. We love him very much. I need to figure out how to post a picture.

 

[diamc]

Hi Joe, any updates on Rocky? Sure hope he's doing better.

 

[joesaldivar]

Thanks for checking. I looked for my posting yesterday but couldn't find it in order to update you.
I gave Rocky his bath and it went better than expected. He made it about thirteen minutes. I'll bathe him again today.
He made a poop yesterday that was watery but not complete diahrrea. I read the article on brumation and he shows all the signs except he has loose stools. He doesn't have a huge appetite but he is eating.
How often should I bathe him?