Juvenile bearded dragon extremely unwell

[Overcomer1]

I bought my bearded dragon from petco last July. I didnt know all of the things i should've when i bought him but over the course of the last 6 months ive learned alot and have applied what ive learned. During thanksgiving i noticed swelling in Lionels leg and took him to a veternarian that dealt with reptiles frequently. She diagnosed him with Mbd. She gave liquid calcium as a supplement and inflammation meds. Lionel had been kept in a small aquarium with a petco "uvb" bulb and a basking bulb. I never recorded the temps for his time in that aquarium. As ive became more knowledgeable about Beardies ive done everything i know to do to ensure hes as well taken care of as possible. In January i bought a 40 gal exoterra tank for him..hes had a reptisun 10.0 lamp for several months now...a reptile basking light...and i keep an eye on the temps with a digital thermometer. He has never had much of an appetite. Ive bought crickets...dubias...horn worms....and most recently pheonix worms...hes hardly shown an interest in any of them and ive been forced to basically soley hand feed him with a syringe the last few months. I leave collards and broccoli along with squash sometimes and grated apples but he hasnt shown any desire for them in some time. His substrate has never been anything that i beleive would cause impaction..he poops regularly ..even though hes been eating less and less. I took him for another vet visit 2 weeks ago and he doesnt have parasites but we didn't do a blood test. I keep him hydrated as well with pedialyte and water baths frequently. He doesnt move much at all at this point ..and hes not opening his eyes much...his uvb as been over stainless mesh but hes had the ability to get as close to it as he would like. Its almost like his mbd has gotten worse but i dont know how because i feel like ive done everything i can to reverse it...including daily supplementation with reptical...we really do love him and want him to get better but he doesnt seem to be making any improvements

 

[Overcomer1]

Lionel isnt able to hang on to anything. If i were to put him on my shoulder and walk around id have to be mindful of staying upright or hed just fall off...when handled he makes no adjustments in his body postion if hes at an angle to potenially fall..hes basically just limp. If i hold him while im showering he tries to get away from the water but thats really the only time hes ever active. Hes about a foot long and was 90ish grams at the last vet visit. I have a digital scale to monitor his weight and hes losing ...im really at my wits end and dont know where to go from here

 

[Overcomer1]

His limbs dont function properly as well..if his front or back legs get lifted a little while handling and he gets sat down his limbs will just stay up in the air...eventually they sit back on the ground but its just another symptom of what hes got goin on

 

[Overcomer1]

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

What type of UVB does he have? You said a 10.0 but you didnt mention if it was a tube light, a compact/coil, a t8 or a t5, ect, or how old it was.

Also where is the UVB placed?

For him you may want to have a MVB and a tube light over him which will increase the amount of UVB levels he's getting.

Most likely a Megaray MVB, probably a 100 watt. And then a T5 HO 10.0 REPTISUN tube light in a fitting fixture, probably around 34" long.

You can also go with a T5 HO 34" 12-14% UVB bulb by Arcadia however in short tank like that the 14% bulb may be too much alongside the intense MVB.
The 12% would probably be fine.

I have a feeling lighting may be the reason he's declining. Possibly incorrect temps as well...
Make sure the basking temp is 100-110.
Warm side 88-95.
Cool side 70-85.
Night time temps 65-85. Probably good to keep it in the 70-80's for him. Warmer temps help with ill beardies somewhat.

Don't expect him to come out of this entirely 100% normal though if he does start doing better... MBD is basically, if not mostly incurable.

 

[Overcomer1]

I have a reptisun 10.0 t5 tube light 18 inches long. Im confident his temps are correct because i use a digital thermometer to measure temps in the basking spot and other parts of the tank ensuring he has a cooler spot available as well. The bulb is 3-4 months old. It has been above the stainess mesh top but he has access to it via a "ramp" i made from drift wood and reptile carpet. Lately as he hasnt moved much i place him about 6 inches below it before i leave for work in the morning...ive moved his basking light away from the uvb some so that he can lay under the uvb and not have to remain in 105 degree temps all day if its hard for him to move. At night he sleeps near me. Ive wrapped a soft blanket aroud my bed post and lay him in a little nook close to me i keep a cermamic heater on at night too...i get hot sometimes but i know hes not getting cold

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

Thats the problem then... incorrect lighting placement and size.
Well one of the problems, Im good with lighting not so much on health issues and the medical care involving stuff like this, at least not yet.

You should have the UVB light right over the basking spot mainly, either behind, underneath or in front of the basking bulb. 18" is too small, 34" would be best for him, this would allow him to bask and get UVB correctly and then go to the cool side if he wanted to, to cool off while having UVB.

Basically if he's basking the majority of his time he's barely getting UVB currently, and if he's not basking then he's not digesting his food properly if he eats anything because he's trying to survive with that UVB light you have and struggling to do so with the lights so far apart.

It would be best to keep him in his enclosure at night, at least he'll have stable temps and will be in a controlled environment.

I'd get a thermostat for the CHE so it doesn't go over 85 at night. CHE's can get incredibly hot and overheat the tank. Even a 50 watt bulb is quite powerful.

I'd personally really get those two lights I mentioned, you'll already HAVE to get the new UVB tube and fixture if you want him to have a longer life, not a painless one but better than what he has now.

The Megaray would help quite a lot as it has a very intense pathway of UVB, narrow but beneficial.
I wouldn't suggest this bulb as your only UVB source, beardies should always have a tube light even with a bulb such as this.

 

[Overcomer1]

Just to be a little more specific the uvb has been in close proximity to his basking light. Its only been very recently that i moved the basking light literally 6 inches away to ensure he wouldnt get too hot and not be able to move away while i was gone. Ive looked into the lights youve mentioned and am more than willing to get things that are going to be beneficial to him. Thanks for your help

 

[EllenD]

It looks very much to me like he's got very, very advanced MBD, and possibly other issues....

*******EXACTLY WHAT BRAND IS YOUR UVB TUBE? You said that your UVB tube is 18" long, but that it's a T5 strength tube...That is very odd. If it's a Reptisun brand tube and it's 18" long, it is not a T5 strength tube at all, it's a weaker T8 tube, and your issue is that NO T8 UVB tube can sit on top of a mesh lid, as they are far too weak to penetrate adequate UVB light on the other side of the mesh, REGARDLESS OF HOW CLOSE YOUR DRAGON IS TO THE MESH! Most T5 strength UVB tubes are at least 22" long, and the reason that I mention the brand Reptisun, which is one of the best available, is because their T5 strength UVB tubes do not come in an 18" size, only 16", 22", 34", etc.

***PLEASE GOT RIGHT TO YOUR UVB TUBE AND READ THE PRINTING THAT IS DIRECTLY ON THE TUBE TO BE SURE WHAT BRAND, STRENGTH (either T8 or T5), WATTAGE, AND UVB % (2.0, 5.0. 10.0, ETC.) IT IS, AND RESPOND WITH THAT EXACT INFORMATION.

What EXACTLY are your temperatures? (Cool Side Ambient/Air, Hot Side Ambient/Air, and Basking Spot Surface Temperature, as measured on the Digital Probe Thermometer)

If you've been feeding him with a syringe, what EXACTLY is in the slurries?

EXACTLY what substrate are you using in the bottom of his tank? Is it a loose substrate? How often does he have bowel movements, and what have they looked like?

Venus is correct, your goal in arranging his lighting is to replicated natural sunlight as closely as possible OVER THE HOT SIDE OF HIS TANK, by putting a long UVB tube next to a bright-white colored Basking Bulb, right alongside each other, with his basking spot/platform directly underneath both bulbs. The Basking bulb obviously needs to be the correct wattage to keep his temperature zones within the correct ranges. And both lights need to be on for at least 13-14 hours every single day.

 

[Overcomer1]

 

[Overcomer1]

 

[Overcomer1]

I honestly dont know the wattage or if its a t5 or t8...i saw it recommended on this forum and bought it..i mean if t5s dont come in 18" then its clearly a t8...

 

[Overcomer1]

The basking lamp is raised up on bricks because it was too hot...it ranges from low 100s to 112 depending on the weather outside...on the far side of the tank its current 78 degrees...theres is a sharp drop off after outside the basking zone with temps in the upper 80s

 

[EllenD]

Well that solves the mystery, you have an 18" Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube, which is not providing him with any adequate UVB light at all because it's on top of the mesh lid. It makes no difference how close he is to that mesh, it is blocking about 40% of the UVB light emitted by the tube from getting on the other side of the mesh, and it's far too weak a UVB tube to have nearly half the UVB light blocked. This is EXACTLY why he's so sick, he's not been able to absorb much, if any Calcium that he's been taking in from his food or supplements, and his MBD is very advanced as a result of this. This is why he has no appetite and is extremely lethargic.

The good news here is that #1) It's an easy fix, and #2) You can use that Reptisun 10.0 UVB tube AS LONG AS YOU FOLLOW THE RULES FOR A T8 UVB TUBE VERY, VERY CLOSELY....This is not optional, as you can see by how bad-off he is right now. The Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube is a very good UVB tube for a Dragon, BUT IT'S COMPLETELY WORTHLESS IF YOU DON'T HAVE IT MOUNTED CORRECTLY OR WITHIN THE CORRECT DISTANCE, AND IT'S NOT REPLACED OFTEN ENOUGH.

********ONE THING I FORGOT TO ASK YOU TO CHECK, JUST IN CASE THAT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT....Is there any kind of clear, plastic cover on the bottom of your tube fixture that is covering the UVB tube inside it? Some fixtures come with these damn "Safety Covers" in case the person decides to use them for a heat tube, but unfortunately NO STRENGTH OF UVB LIGHT CAN PENETRATE ANY GLASS OR CLEAR PLASTIC AT ALL, IT BLOCKS 100% OF THE UVB LIGHT! So please check your tube fixture and make sure that there is no clear, plastic cover over the UVB tube. If there is, it's been blocking ALL, 100% of the UVB light and he's gotten none, and you must remove it immediately.

The very first thing that you need to do IMMEDIATELY, RIGHT NOW, is get that UVB tube/fixture strapped to the underside of the mesh lid. You can easily do this using long, plastic Zip Ties, Wire, Twine, etc. The mesh on those Exo Terra lids is very fine, so it's actually probably been blocking more than 40% of the UVB, I have the same tank but it's not as tall as yours, and the mesh is very, very fine. If you're able to weave the Zip Ties, Wire, Twine, String, etc. through the holes in the mesh, then that's the easiest way to do this. If not, then you'll have to use a Utility Knife or Shears to poke some small holes in the mesh to put them through. Then you just have to strap the entire tube fixture to the underside of the mesh lid. BE SURE THAT YOU ARE SETTING YOUR LIGHTS UP PROPERLY WHEN YOU'RE DOING THIS!!! You must have the UVB tube strapped to the underside of the mesh lid on the Hot Side of the tank, leaving room for your Basking Bulb to sit right alongside it, both sharing the top of the Hot Side of the tank, with his Basking Platform/Ramp directly underneath BOTH LIGHTS...Do what you have to do here to keep his Basking Spot Surface Temperature around 105 degrees F, this is also NOT OPTIONAL, as the Basking Spot Surface Temperature determines whether or not he can properly digest any food that he eats, and thus whether or not he absorbs any nutrition from the food. Having an Ambient/Air Temperature across the tank of about 80 degrees is perfectly fine, don't worry about that at all, it's the Basking Spot Surface Temperature, the spot where he lays and THAT IS WITHIN AT LEAST 6" OF THE NOW UNOBSTRUCTED T8 STRENGTH UVB TUBE, THAT MUST BE AROUND 105 DEGREES F.

******So here's your rules for a T8 UVB Tube, and they must be followed EXACTLY, otherwise you see what happens:

#1) A T8 UVB tube can NEVER be obstructed by anything at all, like a mesh lid to the tank; there must be NOTHING between the BARE T8 UVB TUBE and your Dragon on his Basking Spot!

#2) A T8 UVB tube must be at least WITHIN 6" OF YOUR DRAGON in order to deliver adequate UVB light to him. So after you strap the tube fixture to the underside of the mesh, please measure the distance between the actual bare UVB tube inside the fixture (assuming you've removed any clear, plastic cover if there was one) and the spot that your Dragon is going to be laying on while he basks under both lights. This distance must be no greater than 6".

#3) All T8 UVB tubes MUST BE REPLACED ONCE EVERY 6 MONTHS ON THE DOT!!! T8 UVB tubes have a very fast UVB light decay-rate, and as a result after 6 months of use, they are basically emitting little to no UVb light at all; They will still turn-on and light up, but they are only emitting UVA light, no UVB light. So you absolutely must replace them once every 6 months. I recommend writing the date you first start using a T8 tube right on the tube itself with a Sharpie, that way you'll be sure to know when it needs replaced....

****You may want to think about upgrading both the UVB tube and the tube fixture w/reflector to the much stronger T5HO Reptisun 10.0 tube. Yes, you have to replace both the tube and the fixture, as the fixture you have is not rated for a strong T5 UVB tube....Here's the difference, and this should show you why your Dragon is as sick as he is...The 18" Reptisun 10.0 T8 UVB tube you have been using is only a 15 watt UVB tube...The 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube is 24 watts...

#1) A T5 UVB tube can sit on top of a mesh lid to the tank and still penetrate adequate UVB light to your Dragon (in the case of your Dragon, if you are to upgrade to a T5 UVb tube and fixture anytime soon, I'd still strap it to the underside of the mesh lid for him for the first year of having it, as he needs a lot of strong, direct UVB light for the foreseeable future).

#2) A T5 UVB tube only needs to be within at least 10"-11" of your Dragon's basking spot/platform rather than at least 6", so the T5 tube gives you a lot more leeway with the height of your tank.

#3) A T5 UVB tube only needs to be replace once every 12 months, so you save a fortune over time from having to replace the T8 tube every 6 months.

Just as an FYI, the cheapest place to order a 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube is on Amazon.com, the tube costs about $25 shipped, which is less than the T8 costs in a pet store. And Amazon.com also sells one particular 24" T5-rated tube fixture THAT INCLUDES A REFLECTOR WITH IT for around $28 shipped. (they have cheaper 24" T5-rated tube fixtures, but they don't include a reflector, and this is not optional). So for about $60 shipped you can upgrade. For now let's worry about getting that T8 tube under the lid.

****Whatever you are feeding him in the syringe, YOU MUST BE PUTTING BOTH A REPTILE GRADE CALCIUM POWDER W/D3 AND A REPTILE-GRADE MULTIVITAMIN POWDER IN IT!!! He will be able to start absorbing the Calcium and other nutrition as soon as you get that T8 tube strapped under th mesh lid and within at least 6" of him, so it's very, very important that he's getting Calcium with Vitamin D3 every single day for the next few months and a multivitamin I'd say 4 days a week. After he starts eating on his own and the Calcium Deficiency and MBD start to reverse themselves, then you can scale back the Calcium to 5 days a week for the rest of his life, and the Multivitamin for 3 days a week for the rest of his life...But for at least the next 3 months he needs a Calcium supplement every single day and a Multivitamin 4 days.

 

[EllenD]

And just to make a point of something for everyone who reads this post, first of all, what's happened to this Dragon is in NO WAY the fault of the OP...THIS OP HAD HIS DRAGON TO 2 DIFFERENT "EXOTICS" VETS SINCE HE BECAME ILL WITH THE MBD. Think about that for a second, the first "Exotics" Vet actually diagnosed this Dragon with the MBD, and did absolutely NOTHING but give him a Calcium injection. And I don't know what the second "Exotics" Vet did, nothing that helped...NEITHER ONE OF THESE 2 "EXOTICS" VETS EVEN ASKED ABOUT WHAT KIND OF UVB LIGHT THE OP HAD, OR HOW HE HAD THAT SPECIFIC UVB LIGHT MOUNTED!!! This could have been remedied months ago. Instead, this poor Dragon probably will have permanent physical disabilities due to the prolonged Calcium Deficiency and MBD, when they could have stopped it and reversed it completely by asking the most crucial and obvious husbandry question you should ask when you diagnose a Dragon with severe MBD: WHAT UVB LIGHT DO YOU HAVE, HOW DO YOU HAVE IT MOUNTED, AND HOW OLD IS IT?

I just figured this out in one post, and in a second post I explained to him how to remedy it. I'm not a Veterinarian. This is just really, really sad to me, and this is a PERFECT EXAMPLE of why these damn "Exotics" Vets need to stop treating animals that they know nothing about. The first Vet gave this Dragon a Calcium injection that the poor thing couldn't even absorb because they never asked about the UVB light situation...Think about that for a minute. And think about the poor OP in this situation, who has spent money on 2 different Vets and has been trying to anything and everything he could do to help his poor Dragon.