Is my Beardie still sick or preparing for brumation?

[NekoTheDragon]

Hey guys! I love this website it has been so helpful since my boyfriend and I got our Bearded Dragon, Neko this past March. Thank you to every one who shares there Beardie wisdom! Usually I just read posts on the topic I want to learn about but for this situation I decided to register as a member and create my own post.

So Neko is about 7 months old and a Female (the vet thinks), and a couple of months ago she went through a very stressful time where we actually moved apartments twice in one month. Neko started having diarrhea that got worse over time and smelled absolutely FOUL. She started to get lethargic and eat less which really worried us so we brought her to the vet. Our vet said that she was in great health besides the diarrhea. We got a fecal sample tested and of course it comes back with a diagnosis of Coccidia.

So the vet gave us Baycox to give to Neko, .01 cc once a day for 4 days, wait for two weeks and then same thing, .01cc once a day for 4 days. The vet did not inform me that this treatment would be harsh on Neko. After doing some research it seems that she may have prescribed a higher dosage than should have been needed and I found out that the Baycox kills the good bacteria as well as the coccidia parasites and that I should have been giving Neko probiotics to help her appetite recovery. It wasn't until 2 or 3 weeks after worrying like crazy about her, because she wasn't eating and was more lethargic than before, that I did my own research, ordered probiotics and started giving them to her. Neko started looking better, eating more, running around the cage more for a couple of weeks.

Now its been about a month and a half since the last Baycox treatment and she has stopped eating again. She is lethargic again and this time she is not even basking anymore. She spends more and more time in the corner of the cage in the shade where it's darker. So I started researching again and read about brumation. It seems like these could be signs that she is preparing to brumate. Although she is not even a year old we got her back in March so she was probably born in February or even January. I read that sometimes brumation instincts can kick in before a year old if the beardie was born early in the year. We also set the timer for her light to turn off 2 hours earlier because it is now Autumn, I don't know if that affected her. Her diarrhea has gotten much, much better. It is still watery and a little stinky but much, MUCH better.

I'm just really worried about her and wanted to put the situation out there to see if anyone has a more informed opinion on whether Neko is most likely still sick or if she could just be preparing to brumate and I should get her a nice little hide to sleep in and leave her alone.

Thank you!!!

 

[EllenD]

Welcome to the forum! I'm sorry she's going through this, but it's not at all unusual with infections and meds...First off, if you post a photo of Neko with her tail arched way over her back so the skin on the underside of her tail tightens, like a happy dog, and take a photo of her vent and the area on her tail underside just above her vent, we can sex her so you'll know the gender without doubt...Now onto the issues...First off, does she still have any diarrhea or foul smelling bowel movements? Did the vet do a repeat fecal testing? And what was the Coccidia count in her fecal test when she was first diagnosed (usually they say low, moderate, high)? And is your vet a certified reptile vet/reptile specialist, or is your vet a general vet or an "exotics" vet?

Let me first say that I don't at all think it has anything to do with brumation at all, and unfortunately a lot of people who have a lethargic dragon with no appetite that is sleeping a lot just assume they are going into brumation, or they are told on a forum or by an "exotics" vet that doesn't have a clue about bearded dragons that's it probably just brumation, let them sleep. Brumation is sometimes a "catch-all" that is jumped to and the beardie just continues to get progressively worse. #1 Your beardie was just diagnosed with an infection and put on a harsh Antiprotozoan medication, so brumation right after finishing the medication being the cause of lethargy, loss of appetite, etc. is too much of a coincidence, and #2 Her age of 7 months makes it highly, highly, highly improbable. Is it possible? Well, yeah, anything is possible, but is it common or probable? Nope. So I would not be thinking brumation in this case,and I think most other members will agree with me.

Now it's good you have him on probiotics, because you're correct, the Toltrazuril can kill off all the healthy, normal bacteria in their gastrointestinal tracts, and often times after treatment they actually develop a secondary yeast infection in their gastrointestinal tracts from the Toltrazuril! So that's one possibility for his issues. A second possibility is always that he still has a moderate to high coccidia count, which is why I asked if your vet did a follow-up fecal test after she finished the medication, which he should have. I highly suggest you now get another fecal test done, because it will not only show you if her coccidia count is still high, it will also show the presence of yeast in her gastrointestinal tract, which is very possible. It seems a lot of "exotics" vets discount probiotics, and sometimes even tell owners to not bother using them while medicating their dragons when the owners ask, and it's just not good. That normal, healthy bacteria in their gastrointestinal tracts keeps yeast at bay, so if her new fecal shows a yeast infection you'll know why...

But it's not unusual for them to need a second round of Antiprotozoan medication, and although Toltrazuril is the best Antiprotozoan medication in my opinion, their are a few strains of Coccidia that do not respond to it at all, and the only way the vet knows what actual strain of coccidia your dragon has is by doing a Culture and Sensitivity on her poop sample. I always recommend to owners that if their dragon is diagnosed with any type of "infection", they are given a medication, they finish the medication and are still sick, and on a follow-up fecal test they again test positive for the same infection, this time before putting them on a medication again, they need to do a Culture and Sensitivity to determine what strain it is and what medication will be effective against it. For example, there are 2 strains of Coccidia that ONLY respond to Sulfa drugs, which in any other situation should never be prescribed because it's very rough on their kidneys. That being said, if the culture shows that the coccidia strain is one of those two strains, they have to take the Sulfa drugs to get rid of the infection...

So I think you probably need to get a follow-up fecal test done, that should be done anyway after finishing treatment, and it doesn't cost much. If it comes back that she has a yeast infection then she'll need treatment with an antifungal med, if it comes back that her coccidia count is still moderate to high, I'd then request a Culture and Sensitivity be done to determine what strain of coccidia she has so that she can be given the correct medication this time around...And it's always possible she reinfected herself or has a totally different parasite...Did you completely disinfect her enclosure inside and out, and everything in it, with bleach and hot water or F10SC after she finished the medication?

You should also probably post some photos of your dragon, her enclosure and lighting, and then list your specific type of UVB and basking lights, her basking spot, hot side, and cool side temperatures, what type of thermometer you're using, and what her normal daily diet and supplement schedule is. It may also be a simple husbandry issue that can be corrected easily...

 

[NekoTheDragon]

Thank you for your reply! Our vet is an exotic one and seems to be competent with bearded dragons. I was a little upset that she did not tell me all the effects that the Baycox would have though. We did not get another fecal sample but I will definitely do that the next time Neko poops although they have been few and far between. She does not have terrible diarrhea anymore but her bowel movements are still watery and stinky. I'm still giving her probiotics but she barely eats regardless.

This is a picture of our hiv, we use a 100w zoomed basking bulb with a back up and we have a second bulb that is 75w which is backup when the hiv may be too cold. We keep the temperature between 95 degrees F and 110. Cooler side around 80. We use an automatic timer to turn the lights on and off; on at 630am and off at 800pm. As of recently thats 1-2 hours less of daylight than usual. We use an Arcadia T5 High out-put reptile light for UVA/B. We feed her Dubai roaches and Phoenix worms mostly, recently we've offered a lot of meal worms; the big ones and the small ones. We dust them with calcium powder 5x a week and vitamin powder 1x a week.

This was her face when I greeted her this morning. She was hiding in the shade as she has been the past week.

I don't know if this is a good picture to sex her with but I did the best I could.

This is just her being cute

 

[EllenD]

Yep, looks like a big, chubby girly!

She's nice and big and healthy looking, so that's awesome, and her enclosure, husbandry, and lighting is spot on. So no issues there. I'd almost bet everything I own that if she's still having loose stools that are very smelly, she either #1) still has a coccidia infection and needs a culture done this time to figure out the correct medicine, because Toltrazuril is a pretty great coccidia treatment with excellent results if it's treating a strain of coccidia it's effective against, or #2) she has a totally different parasitic infection, possibly worms or a bacterial infection like a secondary yeast infection, which is common...So yes, the next step is a new fecal test and possibly a culture depending on the results... Luckily she isn't very thin or frail, and doesn't have any other health issues effecting her like MBD or thiamine deficiency, so she can easily get over this with the proper medication. I've seen 3 different dragons on round 2 or 3 of meds for coccidia this week already, because their vets refuse to do a simple culture to identify the exact bug and the medication effective against it...It's frustrating because it's unnecessary, it puts the dragons through multiple rounds of harsh meds and a longer time with the infection, and it costs the owners more money. But she's in good shape. Keep disinfecting the enclosure and her decor thoroughly, wash your hands before and after touching her or her enclosure, and get the new fecal, she'll be fine. Keep feeding regularly, and use the probiotics daily, hopefully they will up her appetite a bit too.

 

[AHBD]

Pretty much certainly a female. Here's a good method that can be more accurate with larger dragons if you're ever in doubt :
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=209431

And yes her behavior may indicate that coccidia is still a problem or it may just be a little slow down because of the season. As mentioned, you'll need to get another fecal test to see what's going in, hopefully no high counts are found.

 

[NekoTheDragon]

Thank you so much, I'm really happy to hear from people with more experience that she is looking well and healthy. I might have done poorly cleaning her cage and I only used soap and water on her dishes and decor. Today I will reclean everything and keep a close eye on her, offering her food every hour. Neko hates her greens which is frustrating but thats a whole separate issue. After I can get a fecal sample I may do an update here. Thanks again everyone.

 

[EllenD]

Thank you so much, I'm really happy to hear from people with more experience that she is looking well and healthy. I might have done poorly cleaning her cage and I only used soap and water on her dishes and decor. Today I will reclean everything and keep a close eye on her, offering her food every hour. Neko hates her greens which is frustrating but thats a whole separate issue. After I can get a fecal sample I may do an update here. Thanks again everyone.

Yes, please keep us updated, we like happy endings! And yes, you have to be very thorough and use either F10 disinfectant, bleach, or Hibiclens and very hot water when cleaning their tanks and decor, especially when they definitely have a parasitic or protozoan infection, they are very hard to get rid of sometimes, they hide in the cracks of everything, and antibacterial soap is not a good disinfectant for the tank or the decor. Much better to literally soak everything in a solution of hot water and strong disinfectant known to kill parasites and microbes.

As far as greens go, she's still a bit young to be eating a ton of them, some dragons take longer than others to start to like them. My 10 month old girl just started eating them daily, and she doesn't eat much at all, but she wouldn't go near them prior to just a week or so ago, while my almost 5 month old boy loves them and has been eating a ton of them every day since I got him at 4 weeks old...so there's no rhyme or reason to their tastes, but typically when they are between 1-2 years old (they continue growing until they are 2 years old, most growth occurs during year 1 but it does continue on until 2 years of age) they will start eating more and more greens. I think the key is offering a variety of fresh greens every day and paying attention to which ones they regularly eat the most of, or the ones they'll eat at all in your girl's case. I know my boy eats tons of greens but he hate collard greens, he leaves all the collard greens laying in his bowl every day, but he eats every bit of the mustard greens, the turnip greens, the dandelion greens, the bok choy, the endive, and the escarole. For whatever reason he hates the collard greens, while my older girl, who just started picking at any greens at all, she devours the collard greens but hate the bok choy. So it's an individual thing. Right now I wouldn't worry about her eating greens, just offer them fresh every day, try to offer a variety of high calcium/low oxalate greens for her to try, along with some different veggies chopped up into bite-size pieces, like butternut squash and other types of squash, green beans, peas and pea pods, green, red, orange, and yellow bell peppers, a little broccoli, a little carrot, etc. They usually have one that they really like...all 3 of my beardies (I also have a year and 2 month old handicapped rescue boy) absolutely love fresh green beans! They devour green beans, even my rescue boy who hates everything...but that's another issue, lol...but he'll eat green beans!

 

[NekoTheDragon]

So it has been a couple of days and no improvement Neko didn't eat at all yesterday. She ate one piece of collard green this morning but wanted nothing more. She's staying in the basking spot when we put there and her eyes are mostly open and alert so she isn't sleeping but she isn't moving around at all. I also noticed that the skin on her back that used to be milky white appears more yellowish which is freaking me out. She's also getting folds of skin near her back legs that makes it look like she's losing weight. And no bowel movement of course because she's not really eating

 

[EllenD]

Did you get a follow-up fecal test? I think that's a priority now, because if she's staying under her lights then it's absolutely got nothing to do with brumation at all, and it's almost certain that she's still got a parasitic infection or a secondary yeast infection from the meds.

When is the last time she shed? The older they get, the less they shed, so the yellow skin is probably a shed starting, but feel free to post a photo of it if you're concerned, it's pretty easy after a while to tell the difference between a shed starting or retained shed and something wrong, like a fungal infection.

If you're worried about her losing weight, I'd go to Walmart and buy a digital kitchen scale for $15. Weigh her every day and track it, keeping in mind that they can lose up to 25 grams after a bowel movement and it's normal. If she's actually losing weight due to not eating, you may want to start making slurries to feed her in an oral syringe, you can either buy a reptile nutritional replacement food like Oxbow Critical Care or Reptaboost, or you can make them by blending up squash baby food, veggies and greens, live bugs, a pinch of Calcium and a pinch of multivitamin powders, and the probiotics in a blender...