Is it Stomatitis (Mouth Rot)? Please Read/Reply

[KrakenQueen]

(Please read here for a more updated bit of info: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=152268&p=1225232#p1225232 )

Hello,

I have a 6-7 year old beardie with what appears to be advancing (?) stomatitis. Unfortunately I attributed his picky eating to him being his stubborn self. He had been a relatively active lizard, proper temps and lighting, however I have noticed a decline in his activity levels and his eating habits have been very unusual. Aside from taking a waxworm and a few mealworms, he pretty much refuses to eat (minor correction: he does eat, just not to the extent that he use to (is this due to his age?). He would eat his veggies but has cut back over the last 8 months (not including his 4 month brumation), so his diet has been more or less just meals, supers, waxworm snacks, horns and silkies. He refuses live crickets). He doesn't gape a lot, which is something I'd expect him to do if he were stressed or in pain from this.

His bottom jaw on both sides have a grayish yellow plaque built up around the gum line and in those areas (it's about 1/2" length of the rear of the jaw on both sides) his teeth are dark. His teeth had been dark for quite some time and I have never noticed any lesions, I just assumed it was from him eating the canned crickets and grasshoppers or his mealworms, hornworms, silkies. I was able to remove a portion of plaque, about the size of two grains of rice, but the rest is pretty difficult and I -do not- want to cause him more discomfort considering he is also shedding.

Currently, we have to wait till next monday before we can see him to the vet. Paycheck goes through on friday, as does our rent. That will give us a little leeway into paying for a vet visit. Until then, I do have some betadine and am curious on how I should try to tackle this situation until we can get to a vet? I've read the pros and cons of using diluted peroxide and am unsure of whether I should attempt that to break down the plaque as I don't want him to eat or inhale it by accident. I need some suggestions.

I have Q'd him in a tupperware bin with a towel and have the bin on top of a heating pad, what should the heat setting be, and should I provide UVB/UVA during this time? Lid? Should I keep him on a few waxworms for now since they are easy for him to ingest or should I try to give him a different diet (puree veggies/fruits)?

Thanks for your time, any help would be absolutely appreciated until I can see the vet.

--
edit:

He also still shows off to me, and did so yesterday by bobbing when I placed him in the tub. I get frequent head bobs and pushups when I clean his cage (4x2x2). It occurred to me after searching through the forums that it may be the sand in his cage causing irritation in his mouth, which may be leading to the tartar buildup. I will be removing the sand this weekend and replacing it with large tile we have available.

His Q tub I have left open-lidded with a towel inside and have attached his ceramic heat emitter over the side with the heating pad underneath, and UVB bulb (compact) on the other side. His body temp right now, on the warm side, is about 87, on the cool side about 81. I am trying to keep the temps at the high end.

edit2: Skip down to read my replies on questions and suggestions asked below.

 

[KrakenQueen]

Bump.

Body temp is around 95, he has been sleeping on the side with the heat mat and heat emitter. Is this a good temperature to keep him at?

 

[Gail]

I think that 80F would be a better temp if you want to keep him warmer at night. Provide UVB if you can, a lid isn't necessary unless he tries to escape. Is there anyway you can get a basking light on him during the day instead of the heat pad? You should try and provide normal heat/light while he is quarantined.
I would not us peroxide on his mouth, it damages live tissue. Not sure about the betadine, if you do use it water it down a lot on swab it on with a cotton swab. You can give a warm bath first and try to gently wipe the gunk away but don't try to forcibly remove it, you don't want to cause more damage.
I'm not positive but you may be able to use very diluted tea tree oil in place of the betadine, try not to get any in his mouth though. It tastes very bad and will not make him happy.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I would just stick with diluted betadine instead of peroxide though for him.
The build up of plaque, etc is most likely due to older age or just the type of diet. It could also be uric acid deposition along the gum line.
Have you noticed any swellings on the extremities at all? If you can, a blood test would be a good idea to test his uric acid levels & calcium also.
Does it affect his eating at all?

Tracie

 

[KrakenQueen]

I think that 80F would be a better temp if you want to keep him warmer at night. Provide UVB if you can, a lid isn't necessary unless he tries to escape. Is there anyway you can get a basking light on him during the day instead of the heat pad? You should try and provide normal heat/light while he is quarantined.
I would not us peroxide on his mouth, it damages live tissue. Not sure about the betadine, if you do use it water it down a lot on swab it on with a cotton swab. You can give a warm bath first and try to gently wipe the gunk away but don't try to forcibly remove it, you don't want to cause more damage.
I'm not positive but you may be able to use very diluted tea tree oil in place of the betadine, try not to get any in his mouth though. It tastes very bad and will not make him happy.

UVB is being provided and I have him next to a window (it does not receive direct sunlight), I moved him to a larger bin which is clear so he can see out. I've learned he does not like to be "confined" and tends to make more escape attempts in solid containers. I'm a bit concerned about using a basking light in fear of it melting the plastic. I had that happen last year when I was keeping my crix warm, and that basking light wasn't nearly as warm as the one I use for Boba.

I decided against peroxide and have been using diluted betadine with gentle Qtip scrubs. He has shown that he doesn't like the taste, but I barely get anything in there. He is then treated with a waxworm or two with no problem.

He's also been getting a daily morning bath to help with his shedding too.

Hello,

I would just stick with diluted betadine instead of peroxide though for him.
The build up of plaque, etc is most likely due to older age or just the type of diet. It could also be uric acid deposition along the gum line.
Have you noticed any swellings on the extremities at all? If you can, a blood test would be a good idea to test his uric acid levels & calcium also.
Does it affect his eating at all?

Tracie

Thank you, I have been sticking with diluted betadine. Now that you mention it, I'd never heard of plaque buildup on beardies (and I feel sheepish for saying this too!), and it is only along the gum line, no teeth are missing or look frail, they're just a little dark. No swelling of the extremities, in all honesty I've been told by so many people that he looks in tip top shape and really healthy. I don't believe it's affected his eating, but I can't tell because he has always -always- been a VERY picky eater, he pretty much refuses vegetables even if I withhold feeders for long periods of time. Fruits and veggies are always fresh, chopped, misted, and I've even cut bok-choy to look like waxworms. My friend who gave him to me in 2005 had the same problem.

I wasn't sure if it could be mouth rot because he doesn't have any sores or lesions, no swelling around his face or mouth, he doesn't gape, never seen any copious mucus/saliva, no pus. Just the plaque, so, could it just be plaque then? Is there a way I can gently remove it or should I just let it be?

edit: I also forgot to mention, his poops seem pretty normal though maybe just a little watery from time to time, normally after I've given him a bath. They contain the urate and the digested food he's been fed, and it's normal size poop most of the time.

I'll see if I can get him in next week, it all depends on finances after this friday.


Thank you for your replies!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is great you are using the betadine now, hopefully it will help clean out the mouth some. They can get plaque buildup on their gums as they get older.
It would be a good idea to try & get a basking light on him during the day to help keep him warmer. He needs a hot spot of a range from 95-105 for proper digestion. The under belly heat is ok for nighttime, etc but they need bright white light during the day.
Just use a nice dome fixture for your basking light & don't rest it against anything that will get too hot.
Which UVB light are you using right now?

How is he doing?

Tracie

 

[KrakenQueen]

Hello,

That is great you are using the betadine now, hopefully it will help clean out the mouth some. They can get plaque buildup on their gums as they get older.
It would be a good idea to try & get a basking light on him during the day to help keep him warmer. He needs a hot spot of a range from 95-105 for proper digestion. The under belly heat is ok for nighttime, etc but they need bright white light during the day.
Just use a nice dome fixture for your basking light & don't rest it against anything that will get too hot.
Which UVB light are you using right now?

How is he doing?

Tracie

Thanks Tacie,

I will try to set something up today, but I've come down with either a cold or a sinus infection (thankfully I had my tonsils taken out in January, so no swollen throat to keep me totally incapacitated!) so I'm dragging along. Boba, on the other hand, seems to be quite peachy. I'm starting to think now that the temps in his cage are what may be the reason as to why he hasn't been eating right. I had been certain his temps were correct, but he has been eating more in the past few days under the ceramic heating bulb + pad it's making me rethink the light placement in his cage setup.

When I checked his temps last night, his temp was at 95, but he was super snuggled into the towel on the hot side. The UVB light I am using is the compact coil bulb, which after doing some reading recently I am regretting ever buying it in fear of damaging his eyes and how it really doesn't do much good past a range of 1 foot. I will be switching that out as soon as I can though, and moving back to the reptisun 10.0 florescent tube.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am sorry to hear you have come down ill now! I guess you both can recover together then!
Yes, please go ahead & turn off the coil light. It can not only do eye damage, but suppress the immune system. I feel strongly that if you get a good tube bulb, which would be the Reptisun 10 or the Arcadia D3 12%, along with a bright white basking light, he would begin to feel much better.
They do much much better with heating from overhead to simulate the sunlight. Just a regular household light bulb will do wonder for him. Just maintain a basking range between 95-105 allowing him to choose his comfort zone will be invaluable for him!

How is his appetite today?

Tracie

 

[KrakenQueen]

Hello,

I am sorry to hear you have come down ill now! I guess you both can recover together then!
Yes, please go ahead & turn off the coil light. It can not only do eye damage, but suppress the immune system. I feel strongly that if you get a good tube bulb, which would be the Reptisun 10 or the Arcadia D3 12%, along with a bright white basking light, he would begin to feel much better.
They do much much better with heating from overhead to simulate the sunlight. Just a regular household light bulb will do wonder for him. Just maintain a basking range between 95-105 allowing him to choose his comfort zone will be invaluable for him!

How is his appetite today?

Tracie

Ah yes, well, I myself have the horrible snuffles. Boba is porking down food like you wouldn't believe, both veggies and meals. It makes me feel terrible that I haven't had his heat where it should have been, where I thought it was correct anyway :/

With the basking light and heat emitter on today (I have turned off the other light and will look into picking up a tube this weekend if I can find one in our city- they NEVER have the right one!) he has been more active and, like I mentioned above, hungry. Normally I have two spot basking lights on in his cage, but I think they aren't close enough for him to actually bask in the proper heat range. The front of his cage and top are all screen, but the two sides are 1/2 screen 1/2 plywood, and the back is entirely plywood, should I consider closing off the top for more heat retention? I'm just a little concerned about plywood catching on fire...

Thank you so much, I think the problem may have been figured out (old age tartar + heating and lighting) and we will try and get things taken care of this weekend. Until then he'll remain in the living room till my husband can do some handyman stuff for me. I will still be doing gentle scrubs on his gums to slowly remove the tartar, should I just start using water at this point rather than the betadine, or keep using it as a "just in case"?

 

[KrakenQueen]

I would like to say that Boba's cage has been upgraded. I have removed the sand and replaced it with brick and astro turf, rearranged the layout so all the heat spot lights and such are focused in one area. The temperatures have ranged from 91-101 after a few hours of being set up. Cool side stays about 81.

He has been more active since upping his temps, eating more, and eating his darn vegetables. Now that I am sure what the issue has been, I think I will hold off on any vet visits. Turns out bloodwork is nearly $120, which at the moment we just cannot afford. I will continue to check the tartar on his gums and make sure it doesn't change.

I did have one odd question, and that is, can the tartar be removed with a soft toothbrush for pets? Say I gently brushed at it? Or should I just make time each day to rub with a qtip and warm water?

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am sorry that I forgot to check back in! I hope you are feeling better now!
It sounds like everything is going well for you. I am happy to hear that you have gotten Boba's tank upgraded now. How does he like it now? The temperatures sounds fine, as well. Excellent work! I think you will find that most if not all of his issues are going to go away if they were all related to your husbandry. Did you close the top off to help hold in heat? I don't think that will be necessary if you can find the proper wattage of basking bulb. The plywood shouldn't catch fire unless you had a bulb directly resting on it or something.
Were you able to get a Reptisun 10 tube bulb installed as well?
Since his appetite & activity have increased, you are definitely on the right track to getting him back to normal.
Yes, the bloodwork IS expensive, some places more than others. You can hold off for now on the blood test then, that is fine.
So he is eating his veggies more now? I am sure that he has been much more active with the temperatures being more optimal for him.
Yes, you can use a very soft toothbrush on his gums to gently try & brush away the plaque build up. I hope that is all it is, or it could be uric acid build up, I am not sure.
You can use warm water, or a diluted betadine mixture along with a swab or a very soft toothbrush. Be very gentle! So at this point, if you want to use just plain water, that is fine, it may end up being easier for you.

I promise I will check back in later today or tomorrow~!

Tracie

 

[KrakenQueen]

We didn't pick up the bulb yet, it will have to wait till friday, however I have been taking him outside each day for a bit to get some good UV's. His color/patterning have amped up since giving him more heat, and I haven't closed off the top, it's still open. I've pretty much focused all lights in one area and the temperatures are perfectomundo! He munched on some of his bok-choy this morning, plowed through his mealworms, and took a bath in his tub. He's shedding properly too, which is something that's been a noticeable difficulty for him.

I will give the gently brushing a try. Do you know how to tell the difference between general plaque and uric acid buildup? Is there a color difference, consistency difference?

Thanks again

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is great his temperatures are all good & you were able to leave the top of the screen off too.
I am not sure you would be able to visually tell a whole lot of difference between the uric acid or plaque build up as the color would be quite similar. It could be a little bit of both, but without doing a blood test you can't know for sure if he has gout, or pre-gout syndrome, etc.
The plaque is probably a little easier to get rid of than uric acid build up since the uric acid build up would be caused by a health issue while the plaque may be related simply to old age.
Taking him outside will definitely help him until you can get the Reptisun 10 tube bulb.
Be sure to go easy on the mealies though, as they are fatty so they should be limited in the feedings.
I am happy his coloring & attitude have both improved!

Tracie